19:05:40 <DavidWHodgins> #startmeeting
19:05:40 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Thu Jul  9 19:05:40 2015 UTC.  The chair is DavidWHodgins. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:05:40 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:05:55 <DavidWHodgins> #chair wilcal
19:05:55 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: DavidWHodgins wilcal
19:06:02 <DavidWHodgins> #chair MrsB
19:06:02 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: DavidWHodgins MrsB wilcal
19:06:11 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Who's new? If you're just joining QA come and introduce yourself
19:06:28 <DavidWHodgins> Anyone here who has not been to a qa team irc meeting before?
19:07:05 <DavidWHodgins> Doesn't look like it.
19:07:10 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Mageia 5 - Post-Morten. Anything we could do better?
19:07:36 <DavidWHodgins> I can't think of anything we should have done differently. Anyone else?
19:07:41 <wilcal> A yes
19:07:42 <brian__> ;-)  pre-installed on computers?
19:08:20 <wilcal> I think that we were entering into uncharted territory with the UEFI thing and that cost time
19:08:33 <tjandrews> I could use an app that will keep my various usb cables from tangling in my desk drawer...
19:08:34 <wilcal> Could we have anticipated that?
19:08:44 <DavidWHodgins> Of course, but with most new systems using uefi, it had to be done.
19:09:10 <wilcal> I agree it had to be done
19:09:16 <Luigi12_work> as far as the QA team specifically goes, the QA team did an amazing job for months throughout the whole process.  I don't know how everyone survived.
19:09:23 <DavidWHodgins> The biggest problem with uefi, is that each manufacturer does it their way,.
19:09:30 <Luigi12_work> there's lots of room for improvement in various things outside of QA
19:09:38 <DavidWHodgins> Luigi12_work: By burning out. :-)
19:09:51 <wilcal> QA team seemed to get stronger as it went on tired but stronger
19:09:54 <Luigi12_work> no surprise, it was a crazy grueling process
19:10:05 <Luigi12_work> I hope MrsB recovers :o)
19:10:10 <DavidWHodgins> Also, many qa team members don't have uefi systems.
19:10:14 <wilcal> I think she will
19:10:31 <wilcal> I finally have my UEFI computer(s) in place
19:10:40 <brian__> true on uefi - something that will naturally come with time.  one more year on my current system.....
19:10:43 <DavidWHodgins> I've been burned out multiple times before. It takes months to recover.
19:10:59 <wilcal> both systems are not using UEFI boot
19:11:20 <wilcal> Gigabyte mobos so I set both of them to legacy
19:11:42 <wilcal> but next round I'll transition them to UEFI
19:12:02 <wilcal> Only way past 2TB drives right?
19:12:06 <Luigi12_work> yeah I was badly burnt out my last year teaching high school (the school system's fault, not the students) and it took the entire summer to recover
19:12:12 <DavidWHodgins> I'm lucky in that I can switch between legacy bios mode and uefi mode, without problems. On some systems, switching to legacy bios mode will cause only windows to show up in the uefi boot menu, when switching back.
19:12:36 <DavidWHodgins> wilcal: You can use gpt with a legacy bios boot too.
19:12:37 <hviaene> I have som ideas/remarks on the QA testing, but i wimm wite those in a doc to Dave and Claire
19:12:44 <tjandrews> I can't afford to burn out. I've learned to walk away for a while so it doesn't happen.
19:12:46 <hviaene> will
19:13:16 <wilcal> Farmers are not allowd burn out time
19:13:36 <wilcal> cows & crops object
19:13:41 <tjandrews> Of course, I didn't have it so bad because I don't have any UEFI systems...
19:13:53 <DavidWHodgins> The worst burnout I had, I started working at 9am on a Tuesday after only 4 hours sleep, and worked straight through till 3 pm Friday.
19:14:26 <brian__> yup - been there
19:14:36 <DavidWHodgins> anyway, hviaene I'll watch for you're email.
19:15:19 <DavidWHodgins> Anyone else have suggestions for improving how we do things?
19:15:52 <wilcal> We have to be flexable on release dates
19:16:06 <DavidWHodgins> hviaene: The email should also go to wilcal (Bill Kenney), as he is also a deputy leader.
19:16:10 <brian__> I did appreciate the choice of quality over deadline
19:16:17 <Luigi12_work> I'm fortunate I didn't burn out from my one week boot camp before I started Navy ROTC, I got 6 hours of sleep that week, 5 of them on one night mid-week, and I also got badly dehydrated mid-week.  Then most of the school year that followed I was only in bed 4 hours a night.
19:16:18 <DavidWHodgins> I think we were with this release.
19:16:33 <hviaene> OK, I'll do that
19:16:48 <Luigi12_work> yeah it was good that we fixed some things rather than kicking the can down the road again
19:17:24 <wilcal> On to M6
19:17:31 <DavidWHodgins> We were not limited by releasing by fosdem this time, so we delayed it about 3 months to get everything fixed.
19:17:33 <tjandrews> I'm hoping that we are over the major humps of the UEFI stuff, so that Mageia 6 will be... easier?
19:17:37 <brian__> here is a strange one - take it as dumb mgmt hype.  In some cases we regressed meaning a bug or big bugs were reinstroduced
19:17:49 <brian__> any ideas on automating some basic tests?
19:18:33 <DavidWHodgins> That's hard to do without spending more time maintaining the automated tests, than it takes to run the tests manually.
19:18:43 <DavidWHodgins> I know, I've tried it before.
19:19:08 <brian__> I was thinking after I typed it, how do you test the huge variety we have without duplicate equipment - sorry dumb question
19:19:09 <Luigi12_work> OpenSuSE has something along those lines going though
19:19:59 <DavidWHodgins> Automated testing works well for specific applications. With thousands of programs, it's pretty much useless.
19:20:05 <hviaene> Automated tests are often/somtimes blind to unexpected side-effects
19:20:32 <brian__> true - like I said, this being my first time....
19:20:38 <wilcal> I don't think we're in a position to create and automated test(ing) platform
19:20:44 <brian__> nope
19:20:50 <DavidWHodgins> Especially gui programs, where the screen resolution can move things around.
19:20:52 <brian__> but it was asked
19:21:44 <tjandrews> Saw a post on Facebook: "I used to believe there was no such thing as a dumb question - then I got a job in retail." :)
19:21:56 <DavidWHodgins> So when I report to the council meeting, I'll say there isn't anything I think we should do differently.
19:22:06 <DavidWHodgins> tjandrews: lol
19:22:16 <brian__> lol - fair enough.  maybe drink more
19:22:22 <Luigi12_work> less ISOs, that's all
19:22:27 <Luigi12_work> so we don't kill everyone
19:22:29 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
19:22:54 <brian__> i'd agree with the less iso's.  Is it tme to kill the CD versions?
19:22:56 <DavidWHodgins> Pretty hard to avoid when most of the bugs being fixed were in the installer.
19:23:25 <brian__> or maybe the dual-dvd.  Any idea what is least downloaded?
19:23:34 <DavidWHodgins> brian__: That will be up to the council. I'll be recommending killing the dual and live cd iso images.
19:23:39 <Luigi12_work> no we can't gather statistics from the mirrors
19:24:06 <wilcal> Lice-CD's seem to be a little non-relevant at this point
19:24:23 <tjandrews> It's important that we keep our senses of humor active. Laughter is the best stress reliever there is.
19:24:30 <wilcal> not to many cd only platforms anymore
19:24:33 <brian__> yes - last machine that would only boot from a CD died four years ago
19:24:40 <brian__> of mine
19:24:43 <DavidWHodgins> On a cd image, there is so little space for applications, I don't think they are worth keeping.
19:24:49 <marja> DavidWHodgins: would all languages fit on a Live CD with XFCE? (there are still people with little band width)
19:24:58 <brian__> I have a fondness for the dual-dvd, but would understand
19:25:00 <DavidWHodgins> marja: No
19:25:16 <marja> DavidWHodgins: than I'm fine with dropping it
19:25:22 <marja> s/than/then/
19:25:44 <DavidWHodgins> Anyway, that will be a council decision.
19:26:07 <DavidWHodgins> brb
19:26:15 <marja> yeah, but the willingness of testers to test certain isos counts, too
19:26:38 <tjandrews> I'd suggest checking the number of downloads of the LiveCD to see how popular it is before dropping it.
19:27:45 <tjandrews> If there are LOTS fewer downloads than with the other isos, then there's little reason to keep it.
19:28:28 <DavidWHodgins> Back. Frigging telemarketers.
19:28:34 <marja> tjandrews: we don't know what's downloaded directly from the mirrors
19:29:01 <tjandrews> Oh. Well, it was a thought.
19:29:10 <DavidWHodgins> We don't keep any stats on downloads, and don't have a "phone home" built in.
19:29:10 <marja> leuhmanu: can you see how many select to dowload a LiveCD on our website?
19:29:43 <DavidWHodgins> marja: Wouldn't mean anything. One download can be installed on many systems.
19:29:46 <marja> I'm not sure we still collect those data
19:30:38 <wilcal> IMO the DUAL CD is targeted at older platforms like 98/XP boxes
19:30:48 <DavidWHodgins> Also, many downloads can be installed on the same system, especially during qa testing.
19:31:03 <marja> DavidWHodgins: true, and all who like CDs could download them directly from a mirror
19:31:17 <wilcal> Ya I can have as many as a dozen Vbox clients under test
19:31:35 <brian__> I was torrent sharing the gnome-livecd.  It took a LONG time to meet my quota.  Compared to the Classic-64.
19:31:44 <DavidWHodgins> It's a constant struggle to keep the cd iso images small enough to fit on a cd. I don't think it's worth the effort to keep them.
19:32:22 <DavidWHodgins> But again, that will be up to the council to decide.
19:32:24 <tjandrews> I was just trying to come up with a way to judge how popular it is with the users. They're the ones that count the most.
19:32:38 <brian__> yup
19:32:46 <marja> wilcal: the DVDs install fine on those, too, even if it is sometimes better to choose a lighter DE..... my understanding was that the dual was meant for people who want to install a server (hence no sound)
19:33:14 <DavidWHodgins> There is no way to judge, as we cannot collect stats without adding some phone home feature, which I would be strongly against.
19:33:50 <wilcal> We don't have much info on size of installed base
19:33:56 <tjandrews> I have one machine that wouldn't do for anything more than XP, and the 32-bit DVD works great on it.
19:34:04 <DavidWHodgins> Anyway, ready to move on, or does anyone have more comments?
19:34:17 <wilcal> move on
19:34:24 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Testing updates - Anyone need help?
19:35:32 <DavidWHodgins> Until we get the list of updates down to a reasonable size, we'll stick with only needing testing on one arch for each release.
19:35:41 <wilcal> I've officially started back into updates testing
19:35:51 <DavidWHodgins> Good. Thanks.
19:36:32 <wilcal> we were work'n on opennssl today
19:36:45 <wilcal> I try to touch on bug every day
19:36:47 <DavidWHodgins> I've been trying to keep the advisories updated in svn, but made a lot of mistakes. Thankfully, tmb and others fixed the mistakes.
19:37:04 <wilcal> much appreciated
19:37:49 <brian__> I'll be out of pocket the next couple of weeks - will jump back in after that
19:37:55 <DavidWHodgins> Just checked, and there are new bugs. libtiff and galette.
19:38:38 <DavidWHodgins> I'm forgetting so many things, it's getting quite annoying.
19:38:57 <wilcal> The M5 list is pretty long. Probably pent up from before the release
19:39:07 <DavidWHodgins> Anyway, Anyone have any questions about specific updates?
19:39:23 <DavidWHodgins> Yes, the release freeze was quite long.
19:39:48 <wilcal> Try to document so someone following you can duplicate your steps
19:40:15 <brian__> k
19:40:44 <DavidWHodgins> wilcal: You should be authorized to commit advisories to svn. We can go over how to do in via emal later.
19:41:03 <wilcal> k
19:42:02 <DavidWHodgins> Anyone have questions about any of the updates?
19:42:13 <DavidWHodgins> Or shall we move on?
19:43:07 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Luigi's Roundup - Weekly security news from our David Walser
19:43:20 <DavidWHodgins> ping Luigi12_lappy
19:44:31 <DavidWHodgins> ping Luigi12_work
19:44:39 <DavidWHodgins> ping Luigi12
19:44:47 <DavidWHodgins> ping Luigi12_
19:45:34 <DavidWHodgins> Hmm. He was here earlier.
19:46:48 <DavidWHodgins> I'll send him an email and ask him to post a message to the qa-discuss mailing list, with what updates are expected.
19:46:55 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Anything else?
19:47:08 <brian__> nada from me
19:47:24 <rindolf> nothing here.
19:47:26 <DavidWHodgins> Nothing else from me. Anyone else have anything to discuss?
19:47:46 <wilcal> i'm done
19:47:49 <tjandrews> I'm cool.
19:48:00 <DavidWHodgins> Looks like countdown time.
19:48:03 <DavidWHodgins> 5
19:48:09 <DavidWHodgins> 4
19:48:13 <DavidWHodgins> 3
19:48:16 <DavidWHodgins> 2
19:48:19 <DavidWHodgins> 1
19:48:26 <DavidWHodgins> Thanks for coming everyone.
19:48:31 <DavidWHodgins> #endmeeting