19:07:40 <MrsB> #startmeeting
19:07:40 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Thu Sep 25 19:07:40 2014 UTC.  The chair is MrsB. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:07:40 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:07:50 <MrsB> Hi everybody, welcome to another one
19:08:02 <MrsB> #chair DavidWHodgins wilcal
19:08:02 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: DavidWHodgins MrsB wilcal
19:08:04 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Who's new? If you are then come along and introduce yourself
19:08:07 <MrsB> thanks
19:08:19 <Kernewes> there are new people here since I last came to a meeting
19:08:32 <MrsB> Is there anybody who hasn't attended a meeting before or anybody new to us today?
19:08:48 <azziam> Pete Larson here and accounted for
19:09:09 <DavidWHodgins> Yes. I'm Dave Hodgins, from London, Ontario, Canada. I've been a deputy leader of the qa team, since the team started.
19:09:28 <MrsB> Welcome Pete, say a few words to introduce yourself and everybody else will do the same
19:09:44 <wilcal> "wilcal" for (Wil)liam in (Cal)ifornia, live near San Diego ( Surf City USA )
19:09:57 <diogenese> I'm the other William from California
19:10:01 <azziam> I'm in Spokane, Washington, USA and first tried Mageia 3 about a year ago.
19:10:17 <DavidWHodgins> wilcal is also a deputy leader of the qa team.
19:10:24 <MrsB> I'm Claire, team leader, 24 (give or take 20) and based in the Black Country, UK
19:10:30 <lewyssmith> I am Lewis, a prickly Celt expat living in France.
19:10:34 <Kernewes> I'm Carolyn from Cornwall, UK, an occasional helper, wrong side orf 50 :(
19:10:36 <Kernewes> of
19:10:52 <olivier_cc> Olivier, France (Haute-Savoie), a week old here
19:11:07 <wilcal> :-) i'm a deputy
19:11:21 <MrsB> welcome olivier_cc too \o/
19:11:30 <MrsB> glad you could be with us tonight
19:11:35 <MrsB> both of you
19:11:53 <olivier_cc> thanks, a real pleasure for me as well
19:12:00 <MrsB> We're quite informal so jump in and ask if there is anything you don't understand
19:12:12 <Kernewes> informal means totally mad
19:12:14 <MrsB> morning intrbiz
19:12:19 <intrbiz> morning
19:12:24 <azziam> It's 12:12pm here and I just turned 21 about 46 years ago.
19:12:33 <Kernewes> lol
19:12:38 <diogenese> I turn 57 tomorrow.
19:12:48 <Kernewes> diogenese: happy birthday
19:12:48 <MrsB> You both have a mentor already don't you?
19:13:01 <MrsB> oh, yeah happy burpday diogenese
19:13:10 <DavidWHodgins> lol
19:13:12 <azziam> Yes, I'm finally ready for some help from wilcal.
19:13:13 <olivier_cc> If lewis is not fed up, I have a mentor
19:13:38 <MrsB> Let's have a sneaky extra topic then
19:13:41 <MrsB> i forgot this one
19:13:43 <wilcal> Glad 2 help anytime
19:13:50 <MrsB> #topic Mentoring update
19:13:51 <lewyssmith> olivier_cc: He is not at all fed up.
19:14:02 <olivier_cc> good then :)
19:14:05 <MrsB> So how's it going?
19:14:28 <lewyssmith> Very well between me & Olivier.
19:14:32 <DavidWHodgins> I still haven't gotten any emails from RemyServices
19:14:39 <MrsB> Len unfortunately has had to drop out. He has to care for his wife full time and is struggling to do both right now.
19:14:52 <MrsB> you'll have to email him Dave
19:14:56 <azziam> I haven't asked for any mentoring up to now since I really needed to learn more basics first.
19:14:59 <DavidWHodgins> Yep.
19:15:16 <lewyssmith> Re Len: That is sad. He is a rare Ruby fan.
19:15:16 <MrsB> doing is the best way to learn azziam
19:15:32 <wilcal> Any help even super basic stuff is really helpful
19:15:47 <MrsB> yes. I hope he'll be back. He's still keen to help just has to put his wife first
19:15:48 <azziam> Yes, it's hard to guide someone who isn't moving.
19:16:25 <MrsB> how are you getting on with mentoring wilcal?
19:16:40 <MrsB> how are you getting on with mentoring, wilcal? (reads better!)
19:16:51 * Kernewes nods approvingly
19:16:51 <wilcal> Been wait'n on azziam to say ready
19:17:06 <azziam> So, I've taken a couple baby steps with qa bug comments but don't know about the white board.  wilcal can help me with that on the side.
19:17:26 <wilcal> absolute best is to simply follow an active bug
19:17:26 <MrsB> don't be shy about asking questions azziam
19:17:39 <wilcal> watch as it progresses and people add comments
19:17:48 <MrsB> remember, we've all started somewhere and all been new to QA at one point too
19:17:52 <wilcal> ask questions even in the bug
19:17:56 <wilcal> i do it all the time
19:18:10 <olivier_cc> with lewys' help, I've begun to test updates, and write my first comments
19:18:10 <MrsB> wilcal can you spend more time on irc maybe with him?
19:18:16 <azziam> OK, somethings aren' totally obvious at first.
19:18:32 <lewyssmith> Nor later....
19:18:39 <Kernewes> +1
19:18:40 <wilcal> I think you have my e-mail addy
19:18:51 <DavidWHodgins> ☺
19:18:57 * gelb5 runs in and sits down at his keyboard.
19:19:04 <MrsB> olivier_cc: well done, you'll grow in confidence as time goes on. Learn to trust yourself
19:19:28 <olivier_cc> i've done my first mistake, changing a version assignment too
19:19:28 <MrsB> morning notsimon :)
19:19:32 <Kernewes> it's that first time you click to validate, that's really scary
19:19:46 <olivier_cc> +1
19:20:03 <azziam> Yes, and if you have time on the other channel after the meeting.  (That's where I accidentally showed up an hour early... helped get my fingers warmed up.  Haven't chatted in years.)
19:20:09 <olivier_cc> trembling, shaking, waiting for the handcuffs ...
19:20:17 <diogenese> Yeah, bugzilla could use an undo feature.
19:20:19 <MrsB> mistakes on bug reports aren't anything to be scared about, don't let it shake you
19:20:23 <Kernewes> wondering what you've just unleashed on the users...
19:20:50 <wilcal> Ya I think if you could go back and edit your post in Bugzilla that would be helpful
19:20:59 <Kernewes> olivier_cc: I bet you haven't reported a bug and it turned out to be something you were doing wrong
19:21:06 <diogenese> Much less scary anyway.
19:21:43 <wilcal> IMO when you first report a bug it's very likely not exactly what's wrong
19:21:50 <olivier_cc> not yet, at least i'm not aware of it Kernewes
19:21:57 <MrsB> it's all a bit intimidating at first, try and trust yourself though. When you test something it helps others to judge if you tested OK if you leave details of how you tested it. We all try to leave a procedure there for others to follow too
19:22:08 <wilcal> others will comment and test and help to make the bug a better description of what's going on
19:22:08 <Kernewes> olivier_cc: I do that sometimes, it's very embarrassing
19:22:25 <wilcal> I get the title of my bugs changed regularly
19:22:44 <lewyssmith> By whom?
19:22:59 <wilcal> Others who understand what's going on better
19:23:01 <DavidWHodgins> lewyssmith: Other testers
19:23:02 <MrsB> Nothing will reach the users until one of the team leaders has uploaded an advisory to svn and sysadmin have pushed the packages
19:23:08 <Kernewes> simonnzg: there you are, didn't recognise you with your mask on
19:23:33 <MrsB> even if you validate something mistakenly it's easily undone
19:23:45 <Kernewes> good
19:23:53 <wilcal> I'll say this app is doing this and then someone will chime in that this other thing is totally screwed up
19:23:58 <MrsB> the most important thing is to learn from it
19:24:18 <olivier_cc> I think i've learned more in a week than during last year
19:24:28 <MrsB> QA is a none stop learning curve, it won't ever end
19:24:33 <wilcal> problems in X can manifest in many ways
19:24:38 <simonnzg> Kernewes: Took a while to find out where I was logged in as me!
19:25:08 <DavidWHodgins> wilcal: We can't test every feature of every package. That's why we take more time with important packages, and have multiple people test them.
19:25:26 <DavidWHodgins> Things like kernels, kde, gnome, etc.
19:26:07 <wilcal> Important here also. We are all speaking different languages so therefore how someone says something may not be exactly what they are thinking
19:26:16 <DavidWHodgins> They only get "minimal testing", if it's a critical security update, with publically known exploits.
19:26:56 <DavidWHodgins> Like the bash one that just went through.
19:27:02 <wilcal> English is the language of exchange. English is a totally imprecise language
19:27:14 <DavidWHodgins> :-) Yep.
19:27:28 <azziam> No, I think English is just often used imprecisely.
19:27:42 <lewyssmith> Better said. I do that.
19:27:57 <Kernewes> English has been influenced by so many other languages, it's acquired lots of subtle nuances
19:28:27 <DavidWHodgins> There are also many dialects, each with there own slang.
19:28:37 <MrsB> Anybody have anything to ask or say about the mentoring or the way it's going or how we're doing it etc, before we move on ?
19:28:37 <azziam> The nuances can be great in creative writing but can also lend to huge ambiguity.  :)
19:28:40 <wilcal> I've spent decades doing Business outside the USA. So English i find is difficult for others to master
19:28:52 <Kernewes> azziam: exactly
19:29:09 <Kernewes> MrsB: not here
19:29:12 <olivier_cc> just wandering if mageia-irc is used except on thursday meetings
19:29:37 <MrsB> yes, alot of people are here, or at least present and lurking, 24/7
19:29:38 <DavidWHodgins> I'm usually only on irc for meetings, due to health problems.
19:29:50 <MrsB> it's very useful for instant communication
19:30:01 <olivier_cc> sad to hear that david
19:30:09 <DavidWHodgins> I find it very distracting, to leave it running.
19:30:29 <lewyssmith> #mageia-qa does work at other times. Depends who is logged in.
19:30:33 <DavidWHodgins> I prefer email/usenet etc.
19:31:04 <olivier_cc> ok, I came on sunday because i was stuck with virtualbox and lewis was not available
19:31:28 <MrsB> if you want to get somebodies attention on IRC you just type their nick at the start of what you want to say, it'll typical alert them with a sound or flashing icon or something.
19:31:41 <olivier_cc> ok, i'll do that
19:31:43 <lewyssmith> You can get quick & valuable advice from #mageia-qa; post a question & await in hope an eventual response.
19:31:50 <olivier_cc> not too often ;)
19:31:53 <azziam> In the near future I can email wilcal and go to chat if it seems better.
19:32:00 <olivier_cc> ok lewis
19:32:07 <MrsB> whatever works best for you both
19:32:09 <wilcal> start with the e-mail and we can plan from there
19:32:23 <MrsB> let's move on then guys
19:32:36 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Cauldron - New RPM, Mass rebuild & Beta 1
19:32:41 <MrsB> dude :)
19:32:52 <Kernewes> hasn't lost his touch
19:32:58 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
19:33:06 <MrsB> You may have noticed, or heard, there is alot going on in Cauldron right now
19:33:08 <wilcal> I tried a boot.iso install a couple days ago - CRASH!!!
19:33:13 <MrsB> yeah
19:33:21 <Kernewes> why the mass rebuild?
19:33:29 <MrsB> there are major changes in progress
19:33:40 <DavidWHodgins> Due to problems found in the first attempt of the mass rebuild, with the new version of rpm, it's going to be restarted once rpm is fixed.
19:33:58 <MrsB> There is a new version of RPM which is introducing some changes to do with provides/requires etc
19:34:22 <DavidWHodgins> Kernewes: Every release has a mass rebuild, to ensure all packages will build with any updates of things they require.
19:34:32 <MrsB> the build dystem is being tuned now to work properly with the new rpm
19:34:57 <azziam> I did a new install of  cauldron-32 last night and also updated mga 4-32.  Huge updates
19:35:01 <MrsB> http://pkgsubmit.mageia.org/ you can see it in action here
19:35:05 <[mbot> [ Build system status ]
19:35:06 <Kernewes> I would have thought major stuff like that would be for the alpha stage
19:35:14 <lewyssmith> Agreed.
19:35:30 <MrsB> As you can see (Packages: 7452 broken deps.) it's not quite there yet
19:35:45 <MrsB> yes, well, it still technically is alpha stage
19:35:50 <DavidWHodgins> Kernewes: No, it's usually done for the first beta, as there are a lot of updates in between the alpha and beta releases.
19:35:56 <MrsB> this is the latest we were prepared to go ahead with it
19:36:07 <wilcal> M5B1 is offically not released yet, so we're still M5A2
19:36:15 <Kernewes> No wonder the betas are always worse than the alphas
19:36:16 <lewyssmith> DavidWHodgins: Should not be.
19:36:19 <MrsB> the mass rebuild has exposed all of the problems, which is a good thing
19:36:36 <DavidWHodgins> Hence the council has decided to delay beta 1 by two weeks.
19:36:57 <Kernewes> wilcal: so why bother with A1?
19:37:07 <lewyssmith> Seconded.
19:37:15 <MrsB> when the bugs have been fixed in the build system there will likely be a 2nd mass rebuild to make sure all the packages with issues are then fixed
19:37:19 <MrsB> Dave beat me to it
19:37:20 <wilcal> A1 is kinda first baby step almost the same as the previous release
19:37:34 <Kernewes> wilcal: that's what I mean
19:37:38 <MrsB> The upshot is we're rescheduling Beta 1 until we're ready
19:37:42 <wilcal> always been that way. The traditional big changes are A2 -> B1
19:37:52 <DavidWHodgins> The alpha releases are used to find problems in the installers, or obvious packaging problems. The beta is used to ensure the packages work with each other.
19:38:07 <MrsB> it's also useful to install cauldron with
19:38:10 <wilcal> And they never do
19:38:16 <Kernewes> DavidWHodgins: but we keep getting installer problems late in the cycle
19:38:26 <lewyssmith> Seconded.
19:38:42 <MrsB> We did discuss at the council about maybe rethinking the alphas, we'll see later
19:38:53 <lewyssmith> Good.
19:39:09 <DavidWHodgins> That's because, in past releases the developers have been slow at trying to fix bugs reported in the installer. They seem to be getting better at it now.
19:39:16 <MrsB> In the past there have been late changes to gtk and late introductions of features. That shouldn't happen now.
19:39:22 <Kernewes> fine
19:39:50 <MrsB> we're clamping down a bit and people are working together better. Everybody is learning
19:40:18 <Kernewes> I can imagine producing a whole OS is a continual learning curve too
19:40:57 <tmb> gnome (and so gtk) has reached 3.14 stable, wich is in good time for a beta for once :)
19:41:03 <MrsB> yeah
19:41:05 <DavidWHodgins> It's also about people learning to work with each other, and having the time to do what's needed.
19:41:23 <Kernewes> yeah, that good old word "time", never enough of it
19:41:56 <Kernewes> especially when everyone's a volunteer
19:42:27 <MrsB> the major news to QA is that the beta won't be with us this week. So we've more time to clear the updates.
19:42:56 <MrsB> You can follow the dev mailing list if you want to see it as it happens
19:43:12 <MrsB> I'll keep you updated with any big news too
19:43:37 <MrsB> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/QA_ISO_testers
19:43:57 <MrsB> if you haven't already, and want to be a part of the ISO testing, please remember to add yourself to the list here
19:44:09 <DavidWHodgins> If you're running a cauldron install, the dev mailing list really needs to be watched, so you know when not to update a system, due to a large package being built (like kde, or gnome).
19:44:20 <olivier_cc> I suppose it's for experienced qa-testers
19:44:24 <MrsB> yes, its highly recommended
19:44:30 <MrsB> olivier_cc: no not at all
19:44:52 <MrsB> it is done as part of a team effort though, in the space of a week usually
19:45:12 <olivier_cc> a week only ?
19:45:23 <MrsB> yes, usually
19:45:31 <MrsB> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Pre-release_ISO_testing
19:45:31 <wilcal> I tend to do all my initial testing in Vbox then once that seems ok go on to real hardware
19:45:39 <DavidWHodgins> We need all level of testers, as things that are obvious to an experienced tester, will be found as not obvious to a new tester, and it can then be fixed.
19:45:40 <MrsB> some details of how we do it
19:45:43 <Kernewes> olivier_cc: the experienced ones can test more advanced features but the rest of us can help with general testing
19:46:13 <MrsB> it's important that they work on a wide variety of hardware, that means a wide variety of people testing them
19:46:14 <Kernewes> olivier_cc: and we all have different hardware to test it on
19:46:23 <olivier_cc> ok, I'll subscribe then. I guess I'll tear my hair with my nvidia GPU
19:46:25 <DavidWHodgins> It's hard for an experienced tester to remember what it was like to get started.
19:46:52 <wilcal> testing something that has already been successfully tested helps to reinsure that things are right, or wrong
19:47:07 <MrsB> true Dave. There are probably things we take for granted which a new tester may notice
19:47:09 <wilcal> confirming a wrong is just as important as confirming a right
19:47:23 <wilcal> yep, it's really broken here too
19:47:49 <olivier_cc> I'm just afraid I'll be able to boot in my Beta after the week has passed ...
19:47:53 <Kernewes> wilcal: I remember with A1 you confirmed something was broken when I thought it might be my inexperience
19:48:35 <wilcal> That's really imporatant even if it's not exactly the same confirmation
19:48:43 <MrsB> and remember, never hesitate to ask about anything you're not sure of or need guidance with
19:49:06 <Kernewes> olivier_cc: you'll never ask anything more stupid than what I ask
19:49:47 <MrsB> we've all done it, but we don't believe there are stupid questions. Only if we don't bother to ask them because we think they're stupid
19:49:51 <DavidWHodgins> Kernewes: There are no stupid questions in qa. The only stupid questions, are the ones that are not asked.
19:49:59 <MrsB> :)
19:50:08 <MrsB> nobody will yell at you
19:50:28 <olivier_cc> ok, i'll ask Kernewes my stupid questions then :)
19:50:35 <DavidWHodgins> MrsB: We seem to have learned to think alike. :-)
19:50:47 <Kernewes> olivier_cc: then you'll get stuped answers :)
19:50:47 <MrsB> it's in everybody's interest that everybody knows what they're doing
19:51:01 <MrsB> GMTA Dave
19:51:08 <Kernewes> what?
19:51:13 <MrsB> great minds..
19:51:18 <Kernewes> ah yes
19:51:18 <diogenese> Great minds think alike.
19:51:32 <DavidWHodgins> lol
19:51:48 <MrsB> So does everybody understand what's going on and why we've rescheduled?
19:51:57 <wilcal> Yep
19:52:16 <Kernewes> I think so
19:52:29 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Testing Updates
19:52:37 <MrsB> thanks
19:52:40 <lewyssmith> Sorry if I have done nothing lately. I was away over the weekend, and then had a visitor (see www.justgiving.com/chrisbell-2014). But I am ready to pick up again bacula when I have time soon.
19:52:59 <MrsB> So anything there that looks scary at the moment?
19:53:13 <MrsB> no worries lewis, it's relatively quiet at the o0ment
19:53:16 <MrsB> moment*
19:54:03 <MrsB> a friedn of your lewis?
19:54:11 <olivier_cc> stupid question for Kernewes, what does MGATOO means ?
19:54:12 <MrsB> typo night again
19:54:25 <azziam> Just as it seems FF and TB 31.1 testing is fairly complete, I have a problem with the latest TB.  Wanna hear it?
19:54:43 <wrw105> I've been following the nss bugs--does it make sense to make the jump to ff./tb 31 for the sqlite requirements there, since we're only a couple weeks ahead of it as it is?
19:54:44 <Kernewes> olivier_cc: it means it covers more than one release, like MGA3 and MGA4
19:55:05 <MrsB> When a bug is for multiple version we se it to the highest version and add MGA3TOO or sometimes that and MGA4TOO to show it affects those aswell
19:55:05 <DavidWHodgins> Why are there feedback tags in the whiteboard, for kernel-linus and kernel-tmb? Waiting for the full advisories?
19:55:19 <olivier_cc> ok thanks
19:55:31 <lewyssmith> For me too!
19:55:40 <MrsB> azziam: part of it was nuked from Testing so that nss could be rebuilt.
19:55:48 <MrsB> sqlite3
19:55:49 <tmb> DavidWHodgins: because I haven't updated them to cover a raid bug
19:56:02 <DavidWHodgins> Ah. Ok. Thanks.
19:56:42 <MrsB> wrw i didn't understand your question sorry
19:56:51 <azziam> OK, I did a workaround by replacing profile with a good one.
19:57:09 <MrsB> oh i think i do rereading it
19:57:37 <wrw105> Since the dependencies on nss are causing problems, and we're at best a month out from updating to tb/ff 31 anyway, does it make sense to move that up to cover the security updates?
19:58:04 <MrsB> no, nss is actualyl rebuilt now and waiting to be tested again
19:58:12 <MrsB> i'll do that after the meeting
19:58:13 <wrw105> And feel free to tell me I'm insane. :-)
19:58:17 <DavidWHodgins> wrw105: We won't hold the security update for nss, till the next firefox/tb updates.
19:58:39 <MrsB> feel free to test ff31 though if you like. I would hold off now though until sqlite3 has been rebuilt again
19:58:49 <Kernewes> wrw105: we're all insane :)
19:58:54 <wrw105> Dave: Kind of the reverse of teh question I was asking!:-)
19:58:55 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
19:59:09 <lewyssmith> Kernewes: As much as you?
19:59:27 <Kernewes> lewyssmith: probably not :)
19:59:33 <lewyssmith> Phew!
19:59:35 <MrsB> sqlite3 was nuked and nss ebult, now it just needs sqlite3 building again for ff31 to work properly
19:59:41 <MrsB> rebuilt*
19:59:48 <DavidWHodgins> wrw105: We can't validate the firefox/tb updates, till they are ready, and assigned to qa.
19:59:50 <MrsB> crikey, fingers are not working well tonight
20:00:05 <lewyssmith> = tired.
20:00:26 <MrsB> it's not actually this version of ff/tb which will be released though, it's the next one
20:00:47 <MrsB> Can we talk about kernels?
20:00:53 <MrsB> any issues with them?
20:00:58 <wrw105> I've been testing ff31 and it's been pretty solid for me.  And I was thinking that was a step above the qa team, but it might make things easier long-term, since we're close to EOL for the current ff/tb
20:01:17 <wilcal> I've not seen anything here but isn''t there something in the AMD world?
20:01:23 <lewyssmith> I was not happy about having to fiddle something for ATI video to work.
20:01:35 <wrw105> I haven't gotten on the bug, but mga4-64 with the latest kernel on my nvidia system has been pretty solid.
20:01:45 <MrsB> anybody else have any issues with amd gpu?
20:01:45 <wilcal> Ya the ATI thingy
20:01:58 <wilcal> I have no amd/ati hardware here at all
20:02:24 <MrsB> i can set something up but it'll take an afternoon to do it
20:02:38 <MrsB> and it'll eat the rest of the kitchen
20:03:15 <lewyssmith> It needed XFdrake'ing from a console, a bit enigmatic. Worked OK once that was sorted.
20:03:19 <MrsB> tmb any ideas about lewis's issues?
20:03:28 <Kernewes> MrsB: give MrB a TV dinner
20:03:42 <MrsB> i'd have to, already have 3 set up in here
20:03:43 <wilcal> Now we have to release the Vbox and kernels at the same time right?
20:04:12 <MrsB> yes, but not if there is an issue with amd gpu's
20:04:48 <azziam> My cauldron-32 was failing to have a functioning mouse or keyboard afetr a few minutes in.  Mouse would still move the pointer but no key would work so I'd have to power down.  Re-installed cauldron and now all is working fine, same driver.
20:04:50 <wilcal> Until that's settled nothing gets released ( kernel & Vbox )
20:05:06 <MrsB> #info kernels need further tests with for amd gpu, anybody with one please help to test them.
20:05:20 <azziam> My last commebnt was about ATI
20:05:36 <DavidWHodgins> Having problems with my irc connection.
20:05:38 <azziam> and AMD
20:05:41 <MrsB> we don't test cauldron until it becomes an ISO
20:05:47 <MrsB> then we test the iso
20:06:17 <MrsB> we test all updates to stable releases and all isos before they are released too
20:06:19 <DavidWHodgins> I have amd (radeon) cards in both of my computers, and the new kernels are working fine for me, so it seems to really depend on the model.
20:06:38 <lewyssmith> Very likely, Dave.
20:06:59 <MrsB> tmb any comment here?
20:07:49 <DavidWHodgins> Graphic card manufacturers seem to have habit of trying to force the purchase of newer cards, by not properly supporting the older ones.
20:08:48 <MrsB> i'll set something up tomorrow. pretty sure i have some older amd gpu bits here
20:09:00 <MrsB> anybody else?
20:09:27 <azziam> I can try a new kernel on my AMD machine.  Card is old.  2900
20:09:32 <tmb> lewyssmith: in comment 40 you stated it works for you ?
20:09:54 <lewyssmith> I will look.
20:10:01 <MrsB> wilcal can guide you through it azziam
20:10:21 <Luigi12_work> Didn't someone post that the ATI problem was user error?
20:10:36 <Luigi12_work> think it was fglrx but they forgot to use mcc to enable it
20:10:46 <lewyssmith> tmb: Yes, but only after XFdrak'ing.
20:10:49 <Luigi12_work> I'm pretty sure the kernels are good and ready to go
20:11:03 <Luigi12_work> lewyssmith: yes our fglrx packages require you to xfdrake for them to work
20:11:09 <wilcal> yes
20:11:39 <azziam> Someone refresh my memory on the command to check what kernel I'm on, please.
20:11:45 <Luigi12_work> uname -a
20:11:45 <MrsB> if they were installed and working before the update they should afterwards too
20:11:46 <lewyssmith> Luigi12_work: You surely cannot use MCC if there is no graphics?
20:11:52 <Luigi12_work> lewyssmith: yes you can
20:12:07 <lewyssmith> OK. I trust you.
20:12:07 <tmb> MrsB: yes
20:12:44 <MrsB> i'll set up an amd system tomorrow afternoon and install and test
20:12:51 <tmb> lewyssmith: the million dollar question... did you select the updated fglrx driver at the same time you selected the updated kernel ?
20:13:36 <lewyssmith> I think itwas included automatically; I did not specifically ask for it. This is a minefield for me.
20:13:39 <Luigi12_work> either it was user error (hate calling it that because you shouldn't have to do that), or it's just fglrx doesn't work on his hardware (doesn't work on my new computer either)
20:13:58 <MrsB> if it worked before the update it should work afterwards Luigi12_work
20:14:14 <MrsB> was fglrx updated?
20:14:28 <Luigi12_work> was he using fglrx before?
20:14:34 <MrsB> assume so
20:14:53 <MrsB> do you happen to remember lewis?
20:14:55 <lewyssmith> I don't know! I am not trying to sqirm out of user error.
20:14:59 <MrsB> lol
20:15:00 <Luigi12_work> well if he didn't update the packages at the same time he probably has to go through xfdrake again
20:15:16 <MrsB> i'll double check tmrw anyway. It won't hurt to do so
20:15:20 <Luigi12_work> sure
20:15:30 <lewyssmith> But I am using a new kernel *now*, so it does work in the end.
20:15:31 <tmb> lewyssmith: going by comment 39 you didn't install the updated drivers
20:15:33 <wrw105> I goobered my 32 bit system for a while by not updating nonfree/updates_testing and had to plod through nouveau to get things straightened out (nvidia), so it's not unheard of ....
20:15:59 <MrsB> it's easy to forget to enable nonfree updates testing for kernel updates
20:16:01 <Luigi12_work> yeah I thought he'd said he got it working
20:16:02 <Luigi12_work> so it's fine
20:16:27 <lewyssmith> I always activate non-free updates testing along with the rest.
20:17:11 <MrsB> it's possible you were using radeon driver previously, but that should work too afterwards if it worked before
20:17:35 <tmb> the difference between regular users and QA is that QA has to manually ensure drivers from updates_testing are installed at the same time....
20:18:01 <lewyssmith> Anyhow, enough of this here, OK? There remains the bug for discussing this.
20:18:03 <tmb> when we push updates, they are all in /updates and urpmi/rpmdrake will manage that on its own
20:18:24 <MrsB> if you had radeon before and added fglrx it could have caused issues if it wasn't done through mcc.
20:18:42 <MrsB> or XFdrake
20:18:55 <MrsB> drakx11
20:19:13 <lewyssmith> I am happy to leave it that I did something wrong.
20:19:51 <MrsB> There are not any other updates to discuss really. backports are waiting on some sysadmin stuff. isodumper is being deliberately slowed but we should move it on shortly
20:20:00 <olivier_cc> I use nvidia drivers from nvidia official site, do I have to remove them to test a new kernel  ?
20:20:29 <MrsB> preferably, to test our packaged ones
20:20:47 <MrsB> get everything working properly though before you attempt to install the updates
20:21:11 <olivier_cc> I didn't manage with the packaged ones
20:21:26 <DavidWHodgins> olivier_cc: It's best to have a seperate install to use for testing, where only Mageia supplied packages are used.
20:22:50 <MrsB> Anything else scary looking or shall we move on?
20:23:08 <tmb> lewyssmith: well, regardless of right/wrong... it's good to see where things break down so we can try to find ways to improve user experience
20:23:47 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Luigi's Roundup
20:23:55 <MrsB> disco dave :)
20:24:00 <wilcal> Hey it's Luigi time
20:24:02 <MrsB> Luigi12_work: ping
20:24:15 <DavidWHodgins> Luigi12_lappy: ping
20:24:33 <MrsB> Luigi12 is David Walser who you'll see alot of from bugzilla. He packages most of our security updates.
20:25:10 <Luigi12_work> boo
20:25:28 <Luigi12_work> my head is spinning from this crazy week + a lot going on at work + the mass rebuild
20:25:56 <MrsB> thats why you get the big bucks
20:26:07 <Luigi12_work> tmb: just another reminder about the dbus update.  I know you've been busy with more pressing things.
20:26:12 <Luigi12_work> MrsB: no kidding
20:26:54 <Luigi12_work> nginx update for mga4 is built but mga3 build failed, Oden was working on that.  Not sure when he'll get around to fixing the mga3 one.
20:27:14 <Luigi12_work> added another CVE this week to the apt bug
20:27:48 <Luigi12_work> new bugs filed for python-requests, libupnp, squid, c-icap, libvncserver (yes, again), and perl in the past week
20:27:58 <Luigi12_work> plus a bunch of Java packages that probably won't get fixed
20:28:16 <DavidWHodgins> Ouch
20:28:24 <MrsB> #info coming soon: apt, nginxm python-requests, libupnp, squid,libvncserver & perl.
20:28:31 <MrsB> -m
20:28:39 <Luigi12_work> of course there will be another bash update, as you know
20:28:40 <MrsB> #info plus a bunch of java stuff
20:28:58 <MrsB> #info and another urgent bash update
20:29:06 <Luigi12_work> I've been really busy at work and I start teaching again in two weeks, and I'll be teaching 4 of the next 5 weeks from that point
20:29:33 <MrsB> you need help to get things built still?
20:29:36 <Luigi12_work> so things aren't slowing down for me and I won't have a lot of time to work on security updates, so if maintainers don't step up to help with some of these, they won't get done
20:29:42 <Luigi12_work> yes, a lot of help is needed
20:29:44 <DavidWHodgins> That will be while we are in iso testing, so good timing. :-)
20:29:48 <Luigi12_work> the list of ones not assigned to QA is up to 58
20:29:59 <lewyssmith> Phew!
20:30:08 <Luigi12_work> I'm really upset about some of them too
20:30:30 <MrsB> #info Many security updates are now waiting for packagers, please keep on top of them guys! (58 and counting)
20:30:33 <Luigi12_work> like why the hell won't anyone help with libreoffice?  Do we not care about that anymore?
20:31:08 <MrsB> #info libreoffice is particular needs input
20:31:14 <Luigi12_work> there just seems to be a growing attitude with the packagers that I should have to take care of everything for the stable releases.  I can't do it all myself.
20:31:18 <MrsB> malo ennael ^^
20:31:39 <Luigi12_work> qemu is another one.  I even asked a direct question about how to handle it on the dev list and got no response
20:31:49 <Luigi12_work> but I know people saw it because tv updated it in Cauldron in response to that message
20:31:49 <MrsB> I think it's slipping back to old mdv thinking.
20:31:54 <Luigi12_work> yes it is
20:31:56 <malo> Luigi12_work: reading.
20:32:21 <malo> Luigi12_work: I'll raise that at the next meeting.
20:32:38 <lewyssmith> Luigi12_work: BTAIM We appreciate all you *do* do.
20:32:43 <MrsB> #info Luigi12 can't support stable releases alone, we need to get out of mdv mindset
20:32:53 <Luigi12_work> plus the perl maintainers won't do any security updates anymore, so those are just sitting there
20:32:59 <MrsB> malo thanks
20:33:23 <MrsB> #info perl maintainers please step up too
20:33:26 <Luigi12_work> still waiting on coling for pulseaudio and AL13N for nagios-check_mk
20:33:44 <MrsB> do another list to dev ML Luigi12_work. I bet people don't realise
20:34:13 <Luigi12_work> got no response on pnp4nagios, fish, lua
20:34:38 <Luigi12_work> fish is a severe vulnerability and the package has a maintainer (guillomovitch)
20:34:54 <Luigi12_work> lua is used by rpm and tv takes care of it usually, but no action on the security bug
20:35:10 <Luigi12_work> pnp4nagios is assigned to AL13N
20:35:10 <MrsB> #info no response to previous request to help for fish, lua, pnp4nagios
20:35:23 <malo> Luigi12_work: on a possibly not so unrelated note, all your emails go directly in the spam folder for gmail users ...
20:35:30 <Luigi12_work> most of this stuff was in my previous e-mail, it generated very little response or action
20:35:40 <Luigi12_work> malo: no that should not be the case
20:35:52 <Luigi12_work> malo: my replies would, but not my new threads
20:36:01 <Luigi12_work> so everyone should have seen my e-mail about security issues
20:36:19 <MrsB> if you write one i'll forward it again from gmail so that won't be an excuse
20:36:21 <malo> Luigi12_work: all of them for me ...
20:36:42 <DavidWHodgins> Luigi12_work: I had to add a filter in gmail, to stop your messages, including new threads, from going into the spam filter.
20:36:55 <MrsB> me too
20:36:59 <Luigi12_work> malo: if it's sent through Yahoo! Mail and still getting flagged, something's really wrong, but it could be with your account.  Gmail shouldn't be generally doing that though.
20:37:02 <malo> same here ...
20:37:32 <Luigi12_work> well anyway I can't do anything about e-mail being a fundamentally broken and increasingly unreliable system
20:37:45 <Luigi12_work> maybe we need to find a new method of communication
20:38:01 <MrsB> send one anyway and i'll forward it aswell for anybody who doesn't get yahoo emails
20:38:02 <Kernewes> people should check their spam folders occasionally for anything that shouldn't be in there
20:38:08 <Luigi12_work> anyway, I know enough people have seen the stuff I've already said, that it's not an excuse
20:38:13 <malo> Luigi12_work: of course not, but that can explain some threads getting unanswered by some packagers that might not be aware.
20:38:18 <DavidWHodgins> gmail seems to have a lot more false positives lately. Just checked, and I have 7 false positives.
20:38:33 <malo> Luigi12_work: I'll raise security updates at the next meeting anyway
20:38:41 <Luigi12_work> ok
20:38:42 <MrsB> next week malo?
20:38:47 <malo> next Tuesday
20:38:55 <MrsB> will you be there Luigi12_work?
20:38:57 <Luigi12_work> I don't forsee myself having time to put together another e-mail very soon anyway
20:39:04 <Luigi12_work> yeah I'll be at the meeting
20:39:29 <MrsB> i'll try to make it too
20:39:50 <MrsB> </rant> :)
20:39:54 <DavidWHodgins> I've forgotten. What time are the developers meetings?
20:39:59 <Luigi12_work> and another new CVE just got assigned for python
20:40:08 <MrsB> same time dave
20:40:30 <DavidWHodgins> Ok. I'll try to be there too.
20:40:53 <MrsB> Is there anything else security related?
20:41:32 <MrsB> thanks then Luigi12_work
20:41:41 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Anything else?
20:41:45 <MrsB> we'll do what we can to get you some support
20:41:58 <MrsB> thanks dave
20:42:02 <MrsB> Is there anything else?
20:42:09 <DavidWHodgins> Not here.
20:42:09 <olivier_cc> yes
20:42:16 <MrsB> go ahead olivier_cc
20:42:19 <wilcal> Not from me
20:42:20 <olivier_cc> I'm still puzzled about NVIDIA official drivers which I shouldn't use while testing.
20:42:32 <MrsB> ok
20:42:38 <olivier_cc> In MGA3, the mageia nvidia drivers don't work with my GPU as they are too old. Should I revert to vesa ?
20:43:07 <MrsB> hmm well you can try with nouveau
20:43:25 <DavidWHodgins> vesa is a last resort.
20:43:26 <olivier_cc> I can't boot when I use nouveau
20:43:32 <wilcal> nouveau does not work well with grapthic games
20:43:35 <Luigi12_work> what's the difference between the upstream ones you got to work and our packaged ones?
20:43:36 <olivier_cc> it seems to conflict with grub
20:43:56 <tmb> olivier_cc: what hw ?
20:44:14 <olivier_cc> nvidia 750 gtx
20:44:44 <olivier_cc> works with 331.79 in MGA4
20:45:13 <olivier_cc> but not with 304 in MGA3
20:45:33 <tmb> olivier_cc: ok. well the reason for not wanting the official drivers is that they "make a mess" on the install, breaking stuff that our tools and setups expect...
20:46:09 <tmb> olivier_cc: in that case I suggest you take the srpm from mga4 and rebuild it on mga3...
20:46:35 <olivier_cc> ok, i'll try that, thank you
20:46:37 <MrsB> or not bother testing that on mga3 and just stick to mga4
20:46:47 <tmb> it will atleast conform to our setups so you can test the rest of the kernel functions
20:47:41 <MrsB> Is there anything else else?
20:47:47 <lewyssmith> Yes: KDE? It still overwhelms updates testing repo. Was supposed to be let loose a couple of weeks ago, but still no bug for it.
20:48:07 <MrsB> There was some stuff added last week wasn't there
20:48:26 <Luigi12_work> yeah
20:48:26 <MrsB> 17th
20:48:37 <MrsB> it's still being worked on i suppose
20:49:20 <MrsB> Anything else else else?
20:49:34 <Kernewes> not here
20:49:44 <MrsB> azziam: all ok?
20:49:44 <lewyssmith> Nor me.
20:49:53 <olivier_cc> good for me
20:50:00 <azziam> All my test installs are happy right now.
20:50:13 <DavidWHodgins> Let's call it a day. One of our longer meetings.
20:50:17 <wilcal> I'm done
20:50:21 <Kernewes> me too
20:50:26 <MrsB> Thanks for coming then everybody, yeah it was a long one in the end
20:50:33 <MrsB> T - 5
20:50:36 <MrsB> 4
20:50:37 <MrsB> 3
20:50:39 <MrsB> 2
20:50:40 <MrsB> 1
20:50:42 <MrsB> #endmeeting