19:33:32 <ennael> #startmeeting
19:33:32 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Tue Sep  6 19:33:32 2016 UTC.  The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:33:32 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:33:33 <wilcal> Being a nusense and 95 is a life's achievement nice
19:33:42 <ennael> hi all let start :)
19:34:26 <Son_Goku> brb as Pharaoh_Atem
19:34:29 <wilcal> i can copy and paste some of my past comments for you
19:34:55 <wilcal> Note: this morning I did a new install of M6, x86_64 on real nvidia hardware using the boot.iso and the auto login feature worked fine without the "good luck" error
19:35:09 <ennael> \o/
19:35:18 <ennael> #topic Action plan for Mageia 6
19:35:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> back
19:35:26 <wilcal> I have 5 working and updating versions of M6. Vbox Plasma i586 & x86_64, Gnome i586 & x86_64 and real hardware Plasma x86_64
19:35:53 <DavidWHodgins> We need new iso images to properly test the current state of m6
19:36:00 <wilcal> I need to do Vbox and a non-Nvidia installs in the next days
19:36:44 <DavidWHodgins> I'm also thinking perhaps we should go back to a sta2 release, for more widespread testing with different hardware
19:37:54 <wilcal> IMO before we do anything else we need a clear definition of what the "good luck" error is/was and how it was fixed if it was fixed
19:38:30 <DavidWHodgins> My understanding is that there are/were multiple causes.
19:38:38 <wilcal> yup
19:38:52 <ennael> ok what I can do is build new isos tonight
19:39:04 <marja> \o/
19:39:05 <ennael> so that we can have some tests and clean release crtical bugs list
19:39:20 <DavidWHodgins> What about live iso images? Who is doing those?
19:39:47 <ennael> for now nobody. I'll try to ask blino maybe he can do something
19:40:00 <ennael> still many release critical bugs deal with live isos build
19:40:08 <ennael> so we have to think about this
19:41:34 <DavidWHodgins> The process for both classical and live iso generation needs to be documented, so more people can help
19:42:14 <ennael> indeed but for now we have to manage as it
19:42:37 <ennael> and try to release mageia 6 to avoid people waiting too long and loose interest
19:43:08 <DavidWHodgins> We should also consider a 5.1 release, though we are too overloaded now to handle it
19:43:17 <stormi> It would be good to start using the isobuild group so that people interested to give a hand can be empowered
19:43:20 <marja> DavidWHodgins: thx for mentioning that
19:44:50 <Luigi12> yeah I think a 5.1 is a better idea than rushing a horribly broken and unusable mga6 release that will likely never be fully fixed
19:44:52 <ennael> I'm not speaking about testing only but users in general and contributers
19:45:31 <Luigi12> this counterproductive freeze is what's chasing off contributors, not the fact that the release is taking a long time to stablize
19:45:40 <wilcal> May I suggest a FOSDEM release date for M6?
19:45:53 <stormi> wow that's late
19:46:01 <wilcal> but it's safe
19:46:04 <Luigi12> as for users, Debian doesn't lose its users even though its releases take a while, but they understand the way it works there
19:46:08 <ennael> too late
19:46:20 <marja> Luigi12: indeed
19:46:24 <wilcal> by year end?
19:46:28 <Luigi12> I wouldn't want to say *aim* for FOSDEM, but I wouldn't be shocked if it took that long
19:46:33 <papoteur_> We have to communicate about the delays we encounter.
19:46:33 <Luigi12> I think year end is probably a more realistic goal
19:46:56 <wilcal> only 30-days between year end and FOSDEM
19:47:04 <Luigi12> yeah we know
19:47:04 <stormi> Is the remaining work to do so big?
19:47:04 <DavidWHodgins> Dec 1st would be better, as people are often not available during Christmas/New Years
19:47:14 <wilcal> aim for year end for sure FOSDEM
19:47:15 <Luigi12> stormi: it's not just an issue of it being "big"
19:47:32 <Pharaoh_Atem> the problem is that no one understands what's going on for us
19:47:32 <Luigi12> it's a matter of, some depends on upstreams and is out of our control, and there's also the matter of how little active contributions were are getting right now
19:47:48 <wilcal> we are really lucky that M5 is so solid
19:47:59 <DavidWHodgins> That's largely thanks to Luigi12
19:48:00 <Luigi12> DavidWHodgins: I don't think our history has borne that out.  During those holidays some people are more active because they're off work.
19:48:16 <DavidWHodgins> True
19:48:17 <Luigi12> but regardless of what we "aim" for, it'll be what it'll be
19:48:27 <wilcal> btw great to see you luigi :-))
19:48:48 <Luigi12> I just don't think we can rush out an unusable release, because then mga5 will go EOL three months later, and we could end up with only one supported release, that's unusable for a lot of people, and then we do lose our users
19:48:57 <Luigi12> I just read a Mageia 5 review yesterday and it was mostly very positive
19:49:09 <Luigi12> and probably a 5.1 would have fixed some of the issues he did raise (hardware support)
19:50:02 <Luigi12> wilcal: thanks.  I finally set up Quassel core and client today, so I'm connected through an ssh tunnel via quasselclient to my quasselcore at home from work.  Quite nice.
19:50:04 <DavidWHodgins> How about we undo version freeze for m6, and concentrate on producing a 5.1 release first, then go back to m6
19:50:14 <Luigi12> fully agree with that proposal
19:50:27 <stormi> it it's related to upstream issues, to be considered
19:50:28 <marja> +1 from me, too
19:50:36 <Luigi12> it will also help get unstuck all of the work going on in core/updates_testing right now that's not getting moved to core/release as we need it to be
19:50:42 <papoteur_> Luigi12: yes, but a Mageia 5.1 has to be build, and it is one of our problem, isn't it?
19:50:59 <Pharaoh_Atem> yeah, that way we can also pull in gnome 3.22 and stuff like that
19:51:04 <Pharaoh_Atem> it'll make Mageia 6 more relevant
19:51:12 <Luigi12> yeah, Plasma is still such a broken mess, I don't think another minor 5.7.x release is going to make a big difference.  We already know Plasma 5.8 will be an LTS release, and hopefully it will work out some of these major issues.
19:51:26 <DavidWHodgins> What are the plasma/gnome expected release dates
19:51:28 <Pharaoh_Atem> oh yeah, we'll be able to pick up Plasma 5.8
19:51:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> Gnome 3.22 will release at the end of this month
19:51:43 <Luigi12> papoteur_: building a 5.1 will be a lot easier, because once the ISOs are built, it will actually work fine
19:52:14 <Luigi12> Plasma 5.8 is some time this fall
19:52:15 <DavidWHodgins> The only hold back on a 5.1 release is getting the iso images built, and ensuring nothing is missing
19:52:15 <Pharaoh_Atem> Plasma 5.8 and gnome 3.22 release on Sep 29, apparently
19:52:23 <Luigi12> wow that's soon
19:52:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> and also, DNF 2.0 is coming soon, too
19:52:54 <Luigi12> well that's fortunate then
19:53:06 <Pharaoh_Atem> with DNF 1.1 no longer being developed once it's released
19:53:12 <DavidWHodgins> So let's undo version freeze, and plan on restarting it after 5.1 is out or Oct. 1st, whichever comes later
19:53:17 <Pharaoh_Atem> the final release of DNF 1.1 already went out
19:53:55 <stormi> are we ready to support mageia 5 longer? You don't EOL a 5.1 four months after its release
19:53:56 <Luigi12> so the next question is when do we target for mga5.1?  Do we try for soonish, or do we try to upgrade the kernel again later this fall for better hardware support.  Next LTS kernel will be 4.9.
19:54:11 <stormi> We should wait for ennael to have a say too
19:54:19 <Luigi12> stormi: I'm fully prepared to support mga5 longer
19:54:26 <stormi> great
19:54:26 <Pharaoh_Atem> ah, actually Gnome 3.22 will release on Sep 21
19:54:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> so a week apart
19:54:33 <ennael> well I do not agree but no pb I note all this
19:54:34 <Luigi12> some packages may fall by the wayside and be unsupportable (some already are) but that's life
19:54:36 <ennael> just go on :)
19:54:50 <Luigi12> It's kind of like Debian-LTS.  They do their best, but don't support 100% of the packages.
19:55:33 <Luigi12> and anything can be supported if someone's interested in working on it
19:55:48 <ennael> #chair Luigi12 stormi
19:55:48 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: Luigi12 ennael stormi
19:55:50 <marja> ennael: you don't mention why you don't agree.. you might have reasons that make some of us change their minds ;-)
19:56:02 <Luigi12> for instance, I've EOLd the moodle package, but depending on how my new job goes, may consider picking it back up.
19:56:11 <Luigi12> I'm waiting anxiously to get moved over to my new job, didn't expect it to take this long.
19:56:21 <Luigi12> I'm currently at my old job connected through my cell phone as a wifi hotspot :o(
19:56:29 <marja> :-(
19:56:33 <DavidWHodgins> Eww!
19:56:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> :(
19:56:37 <Luigi12> since I shut down the remaining computers/servers/internet 2 weeks ago
19:57:06 <Luigi12> we have to have everything out of this building in a few weeks
19:57:53 <ennael> #info Mageia 5.1 to be build in coming days, as a priority
19:58:08 <DavidWHodgins> Yeah!
19:58:10 <ennael> #info stop freeze of cauldron and target end of the year for mageia 6
19:58:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> cool
19:59:06 <wilcal> sounds like a good plan
19:59:22 <ennael> your plan
19:59:28 <ennael> ok anything else on that topic ?
19:59:29 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
19:59:36 <DavidWHodgins> Not here
19:59:44 <ennael> any other topic ?
19:59:50 <marja> ennael: what are your reasons to disagree?
19:59:53 <wilcal> one more thing please
20:00:25 <wilcal> I/we a definitive explaination of what the "good luck" errors are/were
20:00:47 <wilcal> how they got fixed
20:00:49 <Akien> Sorry for being late, I was somehow convinced that the meeting would be at 22 CEST/20 UTC
20:00:52 <Pharaoh_Atem> could we put out some kind of updated snapshot for Mageia 6 soon as well?
20:01:09 <ennael> Pharaoh_Atem: yu decided some priorities
20:01:12 <DavidWHodgins> Anything that stops X from starting. Display manager, desktop manager, Xorg hardware support, etc.
20:01:16 <ennael> we cannot do all at the same time
20:01:17 <wilcal> so it does not sneek up on us again
20:01:17 <papoteur_> Akien: Welcome, even if you're late ;)
20:01:53 <marja> Akien: hi
20:02:07 <DavidWHodgins> ennael: Still have new m6 RC iso images tonight?
20:02:11 <ennael> nope
20:02:11 <stormi> I personnally agree with the "unfreeze" plan only if we release by the end of the year, really
20:02:16 <DavidWHodgins> Ok
20:02:21 <Luigi12> ok, that works for me.  Should probably update the kernel to 4.4.18.
20:02:25 <stormi> so that should be a controlled unfreeze
20:02:37 <stormi> we can't do a 9 month release cycle in 3 month
20:02:37 <ennael> what a joke :)
20:03:42 <stormi> so when would we release mga6 in the new plan?
20:04:01 <DavidWHodgins> stormi: Christmas or New Years
20:04:03 <marja> wilcal: getting the same error again won't mean you have the same bug
20:04:07 <ennael> DavidWHodgins: no way
20:04:14 <Luigi12> sorry for the delay, phone call killed my wifi
20:04:24 <stormi> we need to hear that before chosing an option :)
20:04:38 <ennael> releasing during end of the year we will have same pb as this summer
20:04:58 <Luigi12> stormi: yeah I think releasing by the end of the year is realistic
20:05:18 <Luigi12> stormi: I think extending mga5 support three months into next year should be just fine.  I wouldn't want it to go too much beyond that either.
20:05:41 <wilcal> eol by end of mar
20:05:52 <Luigi12> and yes I agree that packagers should have some control of themselves.  Don't introduce breaking changes that they know will take months to stabilize.
20:05:56 <marja> after the unfreeze we'd have to start with 6dev1 isos again, then 6sta1, RC
20:06:07 <Luigi12> Update stuff, fine, but be smart about *what* you update, etc.  Kind of like we were doing before the formal freeze.
20:06:17 <DavidWHodgins> Yes
20:06:21 <marja> unless packagers listen to what Luigi12 just said
20:06:53 <stormi> yes, next mga6 ISOs should be sta2, with upgraded parts but not all renewed
20:07:05 <stormi> but I don't know if that's realistic
20:07:10 <DavidWHodgins> ennael: What schedule would you be comfortable with?
20:07:10 <Luigi12> we should check our previously release dates, I think we've released somewhere around new years before
20:07:10 <Akien> I would #undo the two #info's from above until they have been actually validated, it's an important decision
20:07:15 <ennael> #chair Akien
20:07:15 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: Akien Luigi12 ennael stormi
20:07:26 <Luigi12> I'm not all that concerned about the holidays (christmas/new years) being a problem
20:07:28 <stormi> indeed akien
20:07:29 <Akien> Right now I count 3 persons in favour, 1 or 2 why not, ennael against, that's a bit fast :)
20:07:31 <Akien> #undo
20:07:31 <Inigo_Montoya`> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xb69b990c>
20:07:33 <Akien> #undo
20:07:33 <Inigo_Montoya`> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xb69b906c>
20:07:35 <Luigi12> it's summer that's historically been a much bigger problem for us
20:07:53 <stormi> and we need to see if the main packagers are ready for such a plan
20:08:08 <ennael> Luigi12: christmas was a pb in mageia 5 release
20:08:13 <marja> discuss it on dev ml first, then?
20:08:14 <stormi> not forgetting that we still haven't maintainers for kernel, drivers, basesystem etc.
20:08:39 <Akien> I'm not against a small freeze loosening to update a bit things like ffmpeg, gnome 3.22, plasma 5.8, etc. But before that we should identify what are the blockers in Mageia 6.
20:08:41 <wilcal> I'm for end-of-year target
20:08:47 <Luigi12> ennael: it wasn't nearly as bad then as it has been lately, and I think the bigger issue with mga5 is we had some really *hard* issues to solve
20:08:54 <Akien> Discussing deadlines does not bring us nearer to a release.
20:09:03 <Akien> We need to discuss what prevents us from releasing, and how to solve that.
20:09:07 <Luigi12> I don't think real life is going to be all that much better or worse for our main contributors around then as any other time
20:09:20 <Akien> I think ennael is reluctant to the "let's reopen cauldron" because it does not solve what presents releasing automagically
20:09:23 <ennael> wait...
20:09:28 <ennael> christmas is family time
20:09:30 <Luigi12> Akien: that's my idea, not like a total reopen free for all
20:09:35 <Akien> s/presents/prevents/
20:09:42 <ennael> you cannot expect people to work on mageia instead of
20:09:43 <stormi> ennael: what if someone else can build isos by that time?
20:09:58 <Luigi12> everyone must understand we're still working on mga6 and trying to get it stablizied soon as we can
20:10:05 <ennael> okok so releas in christmas
20:10:07 <Akien> I'm for a November release, Christmas is not a good idea.
20:10:09 <Luigi12> but right now this freeze is counterproductive and keeping us from doing gthat
20:10:17 <Pharaoh_Atem> if someone is willing to tell/show me how to do it, I'd be happy to help with spinning ISOs (live and classical)
20:10:22 <stormi> november is great but then you don't unfreeze :)
20:10:24 <Akien> Just giving ourselves 4 months more won't fix issues.
20:10:28 <DavidWHodgins> Or maybe aim for a few weeks before Christmas
20:10:47 <Luigi12> I think we are spending too much time arguing about an actual date for no reason
20:10:51 <wilcal> live media isos Pharaoh
20:10:55 <Luigi12> we don't have enough clarity at the moment to know exactly what date will be possible
20:10:57 <DavidWHodgins> Akien: The extra time is to get hopefully stable releases of plasma and gnome
20:11:01 <Luigi12> we will have to see with that later
20:11:05 <stormi> If our current issues are fixable then my vote goes to release mga6 asap
20:11:14 <Luigi12> right now having a general target of "by the end of the year" is good enough
20:11:17 <marja> stormi: without releasing 5.1
20:11:17 <Akien> I don't believe that the main blockers in Cauldron are plasma and gnome.
20:11:24 <Akien> s/believe/think/
20:11:25 <marja> stormi: ?
20:11:28 <Luigi12> we can nail it down more formally later when we start getting some major issues fixed
20:11:33 <stormi> we can still upgrade plasma and gnome afterwards if needed
20:11:34 <Akien> Yes, plasma could be a bit better. But GNOME runs great AFAIK.
20:11:55 <wilcal> Gnome is pretty good I hardly need to test it
20:12:00 <stormi> marja: yes, without 5.1... I think we should have release 5.1 sooner if we wanted to release it
20:12:21 <Akien> We should be careful of not going the easy way out of release hell.
20:12:22 <Pharaoh_Atem> there's really only a couple of issues related to Gnome Software that need to be fixed
20:12:25 <Luigi12> we are not close on mga6, it's a mess
20:12:33 <Akien> Luigi12: Why?
20:12:40 <Akien> What are the blockers that make it a mess?
20:12:47 <Luigi12> Akien: because it's not practically usable
20:12:47 <stormi> that release 5.1 plan and postpone 6 could have been viable if started a few months ago
20:12:56 <Akien> I've been using mga6 since January
20:12:59 <Akien> It's just fine.
20:13:05 <Luigi12> no it is not
20:13:07 <stormi> I'm using mga6 and there are issues but globally it's ok
20:13:13 <Akien> And I don't believe it will become magically better by just reopening cauldron.
20:13:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> as was mentioned in a video made by a french linux news site, gnome software and plasma discover have nothing to use yet (because of https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18669)
20:13:15 <Luigi12> maybe for some DE's or use cases it's close, for Plasma it is not
20:13:23 <Akien> I use plasma since January :)
20:13:35 <Pharaoh_Atem> Luigi12: Plasma has been okay for me for a while now
20:14:04 <marja> plasma is fine if you don't depend on it, if you can live without a lot of integration
20:14:07 <Akien> I had to kill baloo to prevent some crashes, and since there is 0 movement upstream I'd advise we do this for everyone
20:14:26 <Akien> Without baloo, it's ok.
20:14:27 <Luigi12> wow have we lowered our standards something fierce around here
20:14:34 <Akien> ...
20:14:51 <Akien> And does going for a 18 months release cycle makes our standards better?
20:14:52 <stormi> plasma is ten times better than KDE 4 was when mandriva shipped it
20:14:55 <marja> I'd like to see plasma 5.8, though
20:15:04 <Luigi12> there is no way I could upgrade all of my production desktop systems to mga6 and say I can do everything I need to do and it works fine
20:15:05 <stormi> marja: as an update probably
20:15:21 <stormi> Luigi12: wait 3 month after release and maybe you can
20:15:34 <Luigi12> I don't care how long the release cycle is, I just care what shape the release is in when we make it
20:15:48 <stormi> Luigi12: ok, but tell what's NOT working that we can't fix
20:15:49 <Akien> Well if our main blocker is plasma sucks, then we can wait one year more.
20:16:04 <Luigi12> if we changed our Cauldron development processes similar to how openSUSE has done, we could probably release every 6 months (not that I'd want to, just making a point)
20:16:24 <Luigi12> but right now, it's just not working out well that we're stuck at a bad point in KDE's timeline
20:16:38 <Luigi12> there's other issues too of course, and we have a lot of very busy core contributors
20:16:46 <Luigi12> just lots of problems right now, and it's unfortunate
20:16:59 <Luigi12> we can talk later about how to make our development/release process work better for mga7
20:17:12 <stormi> like we did for mga6 :)
20:17:17 <Luigi12> but for now, I don't want to rush out an unusable mga6 release, have mga5 go EOL, and then everybody flees to another distro
20:17:29 <stormi> define unusable, please
20:17:37 <Akien> Same question.
20:17:51 <Akien> Personally I still lack on overview on what are the big blockers.
20:17:53 <Luigi12> stormi: yes KDE4 was a mess when Mandriva shipped it, and I skipped that release.  The following Mandriva release was fine.  Back the, the support cycles overlapped enough that you could skip a release.
20:17:59 <Luigi12> So it wasn't as big a deal back then.
20:18:02 <papoteur_> net applet is not working in plasma
20:18:13 <Akien> From what I can see, it's sddm breakages and "good luck :)" errors, like always, low level stuff that only a couple contributors can fix
20:18:19 <stormi> papoteur_: blocker, must be fixed
20:18:42 <stormi> KDE not restoring my windows: can probably be fixed
20:18:56 <ennael> under investigation by tv to switch to gnotification
20:19:00 <stormi> X crashing when I type an accented letter, can probably be fixed
20:19:02 <ennael> (net_applet)
20:19:38 <stormi> We need a good old release blockers reviews with packager team like we did in the past
20:19:49 <Akien> Agreed.
20:20:05 <Akien> Let's not take a rushed decision before we've actually reviewed the bugs.
20:20:07 <papoteur_> ennael: OK, thus not yet done.
20:20:14 <Akien> How old is the current set of ISOs?
20:20:16 <stormi> However
20:20:31 <ennael> papoteur_: under investigation as said
20:20:32 <stormi> maybe (don't shoot at me), maybe a 5.1 is doable
20:20:35 <Luigi12> bug 19294, bug 19103, bug 19101, bug 19097, bug 19090, are just some examples, for those demanding specifics
20:20:40 <stormi> I don't realize how much work it would be
20:20:42 <marja> the kde cauldron bugs are here https://bugs.mageia.org/buglist.cgi?emailtype1=substring&emailassigned_to1=1&query_format=advanced&bug_status=NEW&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&version=Cauldron&email1=kde
20:20:49 <Luigi12> and yes, the net_applet not working is another one
20:20:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> Akien: sta1 was made in beginning of July, I think
20:20:53 <stormi> as long as it's done in parallell of bug fixiing
20:21:46 <Luigi12> I agree that we need to go over the release blockers in detail at some point.  I think it's clear enough that we're not close to a usable release though.
20:21:50 <DavidWHodgins> The latest RC iso images were Aug. 13th
20:22:05 <Luigi12> and I still think a 5.1 is a great idea
20:22:13 <marja> me too
20:22:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> I think we probably need a 5.1
20:22:19 <DavidWHodgins> me three
20:22:36 <stormi> I'm ok with it if we can help on the ISO building side
20:22:46 <stormi> and we still work on mga6 without unfreezing it
20:22:53 <Luigi12> yeah it might even be a good opportunity for more people to learn how the ISOs are built
20:23:08 <DavidWHodgins> Pharaoh_Atem has volunteered to help. :-)
20:23:15 <Luigi12> well at the very least we need to get the various things from core/updates_testing in Cauldron that need to be moved moved
20:23:15 <stormi> papoteur_ too
20:23:20 <papoteur_> Pharaoh_Atem: is volonteer
20:23:28 <Luigi12> we can't have one month (or more) delays for that kind of thing with this stupid freeze
20:23:39 <stormi> yes
20:23:52 <Akien> For this we need some matches
20:23:55 <papoteur_> stormi: I have no idea of the skill neede.
20:23:57 <Akien> stormi should be given the keys
20:24:01 <Luigi12> yes
20:24:16 <Luigi12> we've been too stingy letting trusted contributors help on the sysadmin side for too long
20:24:17 <stormi> neoclust is about to mentor me but has internet connection issues
20:24:27 <Luigi12> tmb supposedly had a plan to let more people in and never was able to implement it
20:24:28 <marja> stormi: still? :-(
20:24:34 <ennael> stormi: he is back now
20:24:40 <stormi> marja: I suppose so, no heard of him in one weekk
20:24:40 <Luigi12> we might not be able to do perfect right away, but we need to do something ASAP
20:24:46 <Akien> So, to summarize the discussions, the plan would be:
20:24:55 <marja> stormi: he said a few days ago he's connected again
20:25:01 <Akien> 1) Do a real review of release blockers with the dev team (a meeting even maybe? :))
20:25:02 <marja> stormi: you should nag him
20:25:04 <stormi> ok, I'll ping him
20:25:06 <marja> stormi: ;-)
20:25:20 <Akien> 2) In parallel, work on 5.1 ISOs and use the opportunity to constitute to isobuilders team for real
20:25:39 <stormi> Akien: yes, and I would even invite all packagers via the group alias rather than the mailing list
20:25:56 <Luigi12> that way they'll definitely see it
20:26:02 <Akien> 3) Update some cauldron stuff like ffmpeg, etc., that are starting to lag behind
20:26:34 <stormi> "3)" needs to be handled carefully
20:26:39 <Akien> 4) Once the blockers are reviewed, decide on the roadmap for the coming months
20:26:47 <Luigi12> stormi: of course 3 needs to be handled carefully
20:26:55 <marja> stormi: please ask neoclust to fix https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17792
20:27:06 <marja> stormi: lebedov doesn't want to see that mail
20:27:36 <stormi> marja: ok
20:28:11 <marja> stormi: thx
20:29:24 <stormi> Akien: 1) probably needs a separate meeting just for plasma issues
20:29:27 <marja> Akien: there might (again) be blockers that haven't been labeled as such
20:29:37 <Akien> stormi: yeah
20:29:49 <marja> stormi: good idea, thx
20:29:55 <marja> stormi: maybe include sddm?
20:30:08 <stormi> yes all of what the kde group maintains
20:30:10 <Akien> marja: Sadly yes, that's why we lack an overview so much. But calls for QA members to bump the priority of the issues they run into have gone mostly unanswered so far.
20:30:25 <Akien> I fear there are quite a few showstoppers which are just hidden as blocking "plasma 5 integration"
20:30:26 <marja> Akien: many are too shy :-(
20:30:41 <wilcal> like no audio announcements
20:30:51 <marja> leuhmanu_: thx for bringing [mbot back :-)
20:30:52 <Akien> wilcal: That's definitely not a showstopper :)
20:30:57 <stormi> indeed
20:31:07 <Akien> But let's review the current release blockers, and if there aren't enough, we'll see then :p
20:31:11 <stormi> which doesn't need we don't need to try and fix it
20:31:55 <stormi> so is that plan OK and who's going to make it happen?
20:32:21 <Akien> #info Work plan:  1) Do a real review of release blockers with the dev team (with likely a meeting for release blockers w/o plasma, and a meeting for plasma issues)
20:32:22 <wilcal> m6 release blockers subject for this weeks qa meeting
20:32:27 <Akien> #info 2) In parallel, work on 5.1 ISOs and use the opportunity to constitute to isobuilders team for real
20:33:11 <Akien> #info 3) Review and potentially update some packages like ffmpeg that might start lagging behind, provided they won't have a strong impact on ISO quality
20:33:28 <Akien> #info 4) Once the blockers are reviewed, decide on the roadmap for the coming months
20:33:39 <marja> thx
20:34:15 <Akien> Do we need new RC ISOs? And should we go back to sta2 to be more realistic, or do we keep the name because renaming is not worth it, and we'll have a RC2?
20:34:29 <Luigi12> go with sta2
20:34:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> I agree
20:34:37 <marja> +1
20:34:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> sta2 should be fine
20:34:54 <stormi> Stabilization snapshot 2, because sta2 means little to people :)
20:34:56 <Akien> ennael: Is that doable without too much pain?
20:35:05 <Luigi12> I don't think we should spin sta2 until the stuff in core/updates_testing gets moved to core/release
20:35:09 <stormi> (and can we help)
20:35:12 <Luigi12> but then we should be able to do it I think
20:35:12 <DavidWHodgins> With 5.1 as a priority
20:35:20 <Akien> Luigi12: Good point, there's a big plasma update waiting for a move
20:35:51 <ennael> isos are not a pb on classical side. speaking with Pharaoh_Atem and blino for the live ones
20:35:54 <Luigi12> once that stuff's moved, I don't feel like there's any obvious issues preventing a sta2 release
20:36:07 <ennael> but I'm afraid we may not have live in time for 5.1
20:36:11 <Luigi12> basically as long as the right packages are on the ISOs and it's installable, should be ok for sta2
20:36:16 <Akien> #info 0) Get the plasma update moved from updates_testing to release ASAP, and spin sta2 ISOs (no longer "RC", not really there yet)
20:36:38 <Akien> I think it's ok if we release 5.1 with just classical installer
20:36:45 <Luigi12> yeah Live for 5.1 doesn't necessarily need to be a priority, we can get that out later once some people have gotten comfortable with draklive
20:36:47 <Akien> Provided we communicate well about it
20:36:55 <stormi> agreed
20:37:19 <Pharaoh_Atem> yep
20:37:22 <Akien> i.e. we can explain why we're no longer able to make lives right now (without exposing tmb's private life of course)
20:38:08 <Akien> We could release 5.1 with classicals, and have the interested contributors work on 5.1 lives afterwards as a training, to learn the process on something that "works"
20:38:09 <stormi> that, or just say we had to compromise in order not to delay mga6
20:38:26 <stormi> indeed
20:38:51 <stormi> and let's aim for a mga6 ASAP... Which means I don't know when but ASAP :)
20:39:00 <blino> ennael: about live for 5.1, is it about live CD or live DVD ?
20:39:07 <stormi> which means, if something's not moving on, someone's got to make it move on
20:39:10 <Akien> blingme: DVDs
20:39:14 <marja> blino: DVD
20:39:21 <marja> s
20:39:38 <blino> ok, so, it should be pretty much about re-running the Mga 5 build with updated repos, right?
20:39:45 <ennael> should be
20:39:46 <marja> yes
20:39:46 <blino> anything specific that could cause issues since Mga 5?
20:39:51 <Akien> stormi: Yeah. Last year we assigned a "reviewer" for each release blocker, that should ensure that it's being worked on and solved
20:40:00 <ennael> blino: yes in release critical bugs
20:40:02 <ennael> 3 of them
20:40:04 <Akien> stormi: It worked out quite well. We had an ethercalc with all release blockers
20:40:29 <ennael> blino: https://bugs.mageia.org/buglist.cgi?bug_status=NEW&bug_status=UNCONFIRMED&bug_status=ASSIGNED&bug_status=REOPENED&bug_status=VERIFIED&priority=release_blocker&product=Mageia&query_format=advanced&version=Cauldron&order=assigned_to%2Cbug_id%20DESC&query_based_on=release_blocker&list_id=67675
20:40:30 <stormi> ennael: blino: are you talking of 5.1 isos or 6 isos?
20:40:41 <ennael> blino: see tmb's bug about live isos
20:40:48 <stormi> Akien: can you manage it?
20:40:54 <blino> stormi: replying to the 5.1 topic
20:41:12 <Akien> stormi: I'll make an athercalc, and then ask contributors to take some bugs in charge
20:41:26 <Akien> stormi: Last year ennael and I split the work, but I fear we both have too little time to do it on our own
20:41:35 <stormi> Akien: that's what I meant indeed, get it started and follow regularly
20:41:41 <Akien> So if some packagers want to pick one bug or two that they will follow, it might help
20:42:56 <Akien> #action Akien makes an ethercalc with release blockers and asks contributors to name themselves as "reviewer" of some of those bugs, and to follow them up regularly/ensure they're being worked on
20:43:14 <stormi> I can probably that for a few bugs
20:43:16 <stormi> do*
20:43:30 <stormi> can be QA people too, not just packagers
20:43:46 <Akien> Yeah, what I have in mind (just thought about it right now actually) is someone who will just go through the pain of reading all comments, and do advanced bug triaging on it
20:43:52 <Akien> (on 1 bug)
20:44:05 <Akien> Yes
20:44:14 <stormi> and ping packagers to get statu
20:44:23 <stormi> Have we just killed everybody?
20:44:28 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
20:44:29 <stormi> Or cause an invisible netspit?
20:44:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> heh
20:44:57 <marja> no, but we're falling asleep
20:45:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> eh, I'm alright :P
20:45:14 <Akien> stormi: Can you follow up on point (0) above and ensure that neoclust, pterjan or yourself addresses it asap?
20:45:16 * stormi trying to figure a Netspit
20:45:23 <stormi> Akien: ok
20:45:42 <Akien> The list of packages to move are in a dev "freeze move" request for plasma5 stack
20:46:01 <Akien> That's likely all of updates_testing modulo a couple real testing packages :p
20:46:37 <Akien> So let's summarize the big roadmap info
20:46:47 <Luigi12> yeah I can probably have a look and list which packages *not* to move
20:47:05 <Akien> #info A Mageia 5.1 ISO spin will be worked on as a maintenance release, to show a good sign of life
20:47:07 <Luigi12> I don't think we have an updated list of all that need *to* move on the dev list, just a partial list
20:47:37 <Akien> #info Mageia 6 release date still TBD. Current focus is on reviewing blockers and releasing sta2.
20:48:02 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Sensitive_packages ? to be uipdated
20:48:45 <Luigi12> we can probably just retire that page
20:49:15 <ennael> or update it and keep it as a reference
20:49:21 <ennael> better than a mail
20:49:29 <Luigi12> yeah I don't see the point
20:49:47 <DavidWHodgins> Only useful if people check it
20:50:04 <Pharaoh_Atem> I didn't even know this page existed...
20:50:08 <stormi> Luigi12: can you reply to my forward to sysadmins with that information please (that the list is not complete and how to get the full list or that you will provide it)?
20:50:10 <Luigi12> plus we don't even know who's going to maintain our build toolchain going forward, need to sort that out first and figure out how it will be managed
20:50:26 <Luigi12> stormi: the sysadmin list won't let me send mails to it
20:50:38 <stormi> Luigi12: to me then and I'll forward
20:50:48 <Luigi12> stormi: if you need something from me, just mail me directly and I'll reply with whatever's needed
20:50:52 <Akien> Before we close the meeting, I'd propose a quick topic about..
20:50:58 <Akien> #topic Maintainer groups
20:51:08 <Luigi12> that's topical :o)
20:51:12 <stormi> \o/
20:51:30 <Akien> As you've likely read on the dev ML stormi created 8 (I think) maintainer groups that you can join right now
20:51:41 <Luigi12> thanks for pushing forward with this
20:51:45 <Akien> They consist in:
20:51:54 <Akien> - a mailing list (which can be used as assignee/in CC on bugzilla)
20:52:19 <Akien> - a list of users in the wiki page: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Maintainer_groups
20:52:46 <Akien> please add your name in the wiki, since not everyone joins mailing lists (e.g. people already following bugs@, it's important for bugsquad at least to know who's where)
20:53:17 <Akien> - for some of them, an identity user that can be used for maintdb
20:53:39 <Akien> The last point still needs some discussion on dev@ and/or bugsquad@ about how we want to handle it precisely IMO
20:53:58 <stormi> well, I gave time for the discussion already, but as you wish :)
20:54:01 <Akien> But we shouldn't lose time with this and all get onboard the groups we're interested in - for bugsquad it's pretty important that those groups are functional asap
20:54:14 <Akien> stormi: I mean to discuss how to use what was decided
20:54:20 <Akien> stormi: Not to rediscuss the decision
20:54:42 <papoteur_> sorry, but good night o/
20:54:44 <Luigi12> yeah there was a request for comments sent to the dev list, but nobody replied
20:54:52 <Luigi12> I only replied on IRC in #mageia-bugsquad :o(
20:55:13 <Akien> In particular, an important question is how to handle assignees for groups which are only partly populated by the people we know are working on this stuff
20:55:24 <Akien> e.g. the kernel group is empty, but rindolf is obviously interested
20:55:34 <Akien> So do we assign kernel bugs to kernel@, or to rindolf?
20:55:43 <Luigi12> probably kernel@
20:55:45 <marja> to kernel
20:55:48 <marja> yes
20:55:49 <Akien> I agree
20:56:04 <stormi> I plan to contact some packagers individually (if you don't do it before)
20:56:04 <Akien> But this was just an example to show that we do need those groups to be filled and functional now that they exist
20:56:05 <Luigi12> there just needs to be an easy way for someone to look up in bugzilla the list assigned to kernel@ (I believe this should already be the case)
20:56:24 <Luigi12> yeah people need to be watching the groups they're interested in
20:56:33 <marja> Luigi12: I put the links in the wiki page
20:56:33 <Akien> Yeah, we could already create saved searches for each group and link them in the wiki page
20:56:40 <Akien> Nevermind, already there
20:56:40 <Luigi12> hopefully it will work better than pkg-bugs has worked so far (as in, not at all)
20:56:41 <Akien> :D
20:56:46 <Luigi12> marja: you rock
20:56:47 <stormi> :)
20:57:03 <Akien> Luigi12: I wouldn't say it hasn't worked so far
20:57:13 <Akien> At least bugsquad has a lot less bugs assigned to it :p
20:57:17 <Akien> *itself
20:57:37 <stormi> true
20:57:37 <Akien> And daviddavid has fixed dozens of pkg-bugs bugs
20:57:42 <stormi> true agai
20:57:45 <marja> indeed
20:57:45 <Luigi12> well yeah but I don't think anyone watches pkg-bugs and picks up bugs to fix
20:57:53 <Luigi12> does daviddavid watch pkg-bugs or just bugs?
20:57:58 <Akien> I think pkg-bugs
20:58:01 <stormi> yes
20:58:05 <Luigi12> oh nice
20:58:09 <Luigi12> one is a start :D
20:58:11 <stormi> He was one of the more enthousiastic about the mailing list creation
20:58:22 <Akien> But yeah pkg-bugs has only 11 subscribers
20:58:30 <Akien> That's about how many active packagers we have though :p
20:58:40 <Luigi12> :o)
20:58:53 <Luigi12> well that's what you'd expect
20:59:01 <Luigi12> so that's good then
20:59:15 <Luigi12> now people need to take the next step and fix stuff :o)
20:59:21 <Luigi12> (daviddavid and some others do, to be fair)
20:59:32 <marja> stormi: about the wiki links, the search uses only the part before @ml.mageia.org .....
20:59:33 <Luigi12> I just didn't think it was because of pkg-bugs, but I'm glad to be wrong
21:00:05 <Luigi12> marja: hopefully that's fine.  I don't think we'll have a real person named Base System creating a user account.
21:00:15 <Akien> I've fixed some pkg-bugs bugs too, though I watch bugs@ and not pkg-bugs@ :p
21:00:23 <Luigi12> and please don't get any funny ideas and name one of your kids Base System :p
21:00:30 <Akien> Hehe
21:00:33 <Luigi12> yeah I watch bugs (through Sympa)
21:00:45 <marja> Luigi12: well, someone could have the initials "kde"
21:00:46 <Akien> Luigi12: I feel for you :D
21:00:59 <Luigi12> haha yeah sympa is awful
21:01:05 <Luigi12> but I watch bugs because I help with triage
21:01:12 <Luigi12> if I only wanted to do packaging, pkg-bugs would be good
21:01:31 <Akien> Alright, so for maintainer group I'll do some ping on the dev@ ML, and let stormi do some developer hunting to fill the groups if they ignore my re-call :p
21:01:49 <Luigi12> feel free to use matches
21:02:08 <Akien> Any other topic to discuss, or should we end the meeting?
21:02:20 <marja> end meeting
21:02:21 <DavidWHodgins> Let's call it a night
21:02:22 <Luigi12> I think we're good
21:02:22 <Pharaoh_Atem> I think we're good
21:02:26 <Akien> :D
21:02:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> GMTA
21:02:31 <Luigi12> those silly Americans...
21:02:37 <stormi> see you at the blockers meeting :)
21:02:38 <wilcal> bye all
21:02:40 <Akien> Thanks everyone, that was quite a productive meeting :)
21:02:40 <stormi> asap :)
21:02:42 <Akien> yeah
21:02:44 <Akien> #endmeeting