19:06:30 <ennael> #startmeeting 19:06:30 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Tue Jun 5 19:06:30 2012 UTC. The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:06:30 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:06:38 <ennael> hi all 19:06:48 <ennael> Inigo_Montoya will log this meeting 19:06:48 <Inigo_Montoya> ennael: Error: "will" is not a valid command. 19:06:53 <ennael> Inigo_Montoya: shut up 19:06:53 <Inigo_Montoya> ennael: Error: "shut" is not a valid command. 19:06:59 <marja> grinz 19:07:02 <ennael> tsss 19:07:03 <doktor5000> xD 19:07:18 <isadora> ;) 19:07:18 <ennael> so thanks everyone for joining tonight 19:07:31 <doktor5000> Inigo_Montoya: matches 19:07:31 <Inigo_Montoya> doktor5000: Error: "matches" is not a valid command. 19:07:38 <marja> :) 19:07:49 <ennael> I was speaking with doktor5000 some days ago and I doscovered global forum situation was not solved 19:08:04 <ennael> my bad I really thought it was 19:08:35 <ennael> so this meeting is about speaking about organization and rules and get proper team as all other team in Mageia project 19:08:40 <ennael> does it sound reasonable ? 19:08:45 <wobo> y 19:08:57 <ennael> ok 19:09:12 <ennael> quick word about council role in all this 19:09:26 <doktor5000> another point to have some kind-of organisational TODO list, visible be everyone 19:09:33 <ennael> what we look for is to get all teams working following Mageia principles 19:09:36 <ennael> meaning 19:09:36 <doktor5000> s/be/by/ 19:09:47 <ennael> open, transparent and friendly 19:09:53 <ennael> sound reasonable ? 19:09:59 <marja> :) 19:10:05 <isadora> si 19:10:09 <ennael> great :) 19:10:10 <wobo> go 19:10:13 <ennael> so 19:10:36 <ennael> I guess we just need to formalize some points as forums are already working 19:10:43 <ennael> and try to get more people helping 19:11:03 <ennael> Mageia 2 brought lots of visits and we need to give proper answers and then get new users 19:11:32 <ennael> boklm from sysadmin will help on technical administration 19:11:49 <ennael> but forum team should act on forum mananagement side 19:11:58 <ennael> meaning organize, moderate, help... 19:12:05 <ennael> ok ? 19:12:10 <marja> hi maat 19:12:33 <maat> Direct live from the street 19:12:40 <ennael> so 19:12:55 <ennael> as all other teams we need to have policy on wiki 19:13:03 <maat> Hi again all 19:13:10 <wobo> hi 19:13:12 <ennael> for forum users *and* forum team 19:13:16 <ennael> hi 19:13:24 <ennael> what do we have for now? 19:14:20 <marja> there is a wiki page https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Forum_Rules 19:14:32 <marja> but I hadn't seen it before 19:14:38 <doktor5000> ennael: nothing so far, only my proposal for guidelines/policies/rules/whatever you want to call it AFAIK 19:14:57 <ennael> ok 19:15:01 <doktor5000> https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2054 19:15:15 <marja> ah, boklm wrote that wiki page 19:15:19 <ennael> wiki page was written by boklm this afternoon 19:15:24 <ennael> to start with something 19:15:35 <ennael> I guess this can be used and completed wdyt? 19:15:39 <doktor5000> also https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2 is still quite empty 19:16:18 <ennael> what about having a look on other existing forums and take some ideas ? 19:16:55 <doktor5000> that's what i tried to do, but some people said those rules were too strict and something like that 19:17:15 <ennael> well what about proposing something and discuss it? 19:17:17 <isadora> wiki could be a good working-document to start from iguess 19:17:21 <ennael> at least it's a start point 19:17:39 <wobo> IMHO we do not need to have too many rules because things which should be avoided are only a few points - but those we have should be enforcable. 19:17:42 <ennael> also rules should be considered as some kind of security in case of troubles 19:17:52 <maat> Why not discussing 19:18:09 <maat> Ennael yessss 19:18:21 <ennael> well we will not solve everything tonight but at least write a todo list and start various discussions 19:18:38 <maat> If you say that i'm in line with u 19:18:52 <ennael> so what we have to do 19:18:59 <ennael> - choose 1 or 2 team leaders 19:19:07 <maat> In have only one concern 19:19:07 <ennael> - finalize policy 19:19:20 <ennael> - describe current team 19:19:29 <maat> Before we plan whatever 19:19:32 <ennael> - finalize forum rules 19:20:12 <maat> If we work altogether 19:20:18 <doktor5000> ennael: leave maat some time to answer, he's only on smartphone :) 19:20:30 <ennael> yep waiting :) 19:20:36 <ennael> maat: I agree 19:20:37 <maat> Then ok for all this and more 19:20:45 <ennael> but my comment is 19:20:54 <ennael> for now forums look like a mess :) 19:21:04 <ennael> I will not say it's X's fault or Y 19:21:09 <ennael> that's not the point 19:21:26 <maat> If in shall expect flamewars with inbolved people from this very chan 19:21:27 <ennael> but it would be nice to hear peopla working together instead of fioghting 19:21:36 <maat> Then not ok 19:21:57 <maat> Sorry for the typos 19:22:01 <ennael> 1 advice is to have 2 leaders or whatever the name 19:22:01 <wobo> we are not here to start flamewars 19:22:16 <ennael> becuase of job, private life... 19:22:19 <isadora> wobo: who are we? 19:22:26 <doktor5000> maat: what's you concern actually? 19:22:31 <wobo> isadora: all 19:22:34 <maat> With this only guarantee 19:22:40 <isadora> wobo: thx 19:23:05 <maat> I'm in with all the energy i can invest 19:23:13 <ennael> ok 19:23:25 <ennael> so what happen in all other team 19:23:33 <ennael> people choose 2 leaders at least 19:23:40 <ennael> in packagers team we are 3 19:24:01 <ennael> imho a leader is not a dictator but organize 19:24:12 <ennael> so we need people ok to work on this 19:24:21 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Forum_Rules#Forum_Team_Leader 19:24:33 <ennael> I guess it's quite a good definition 19:24:40 <ennael> do you all agree on this? 19:25:16 <wobo> I guess this "team" and "team leader" has nothing to do with comparable positions in the forums? 19:25:19 <isadora> i am not that much used copmmunicatying this way and to make quick decisions this way 19:25:32 <ennael> wobo: yep 19:25:41 <ennael> it's rather organize team and work with council 19:25:43 <wobo> isadora: welcome to my world! 19:25:45 <maat> @doctor5000 fights among personalities in a forum give a very harmful idea of the whole community 19:25:47 <ennael> :) 19:26:30 <maat> So fights here or in real life 19:26:38 <ennael> I thought we were here to start something constructive 19:26:52 <marja> ennael: this is constructive 19:26:56 <ennael> we can also fight all evening but sorry I have no time for this 19:26:58 <maat> Fair play as much as possible of course 19:27:01 <wobo> as long as everybody behaves as a team outside and inside the team there are no fights 19:27:06 <marja> ennael: you misunderstand 19:27:15 <ennael> maybe 19:27:24 <marja> ennael: doktor5000 asked what maat's concern was 19:27:41 <marja> ennael: like all of us, maat doesn't want the old situation to return 19:27:53 <wobo> nobody wants that 19:27:57 <marja> ennael: there is nothing wrong with us all stating that we don't want that 19:27:57 <ennael> I hope so 19:28:14 <maat> Then if we share.that view 19:28:26 <maat> Let's build :-P 19:28:29 <ennael> so 19:28:34 <ennael> asking again 19:28:44 <ennael> who would candidate for these positions? 19:29:06 <doktor5000> isadora: ? 19:29:08 <ennael> it takes some time but we need it 19:29:27 <wobo> marja ? 19:29:27 <maat> Now i'm cool with shared objectives 19:29:31 <maat> I am 19:29:41 <ennael> well you can apply in coming days on ML 19:29:53 <ennael> it's not an emergency but still we have to do it quickly 19:29:59 <marja> wobo: I'm already neglecting bug squad too much 19:30:00 <ennael> or it will last again and again 19:30:01 <isadora> doktor5000: you know my situation, there is enough for me to do right now within the limitations 19:30:21 <doktor5000> sorry, i'd do it but i'm not used to that organisational stuff, i'm better at doing the hard and dirty work :) 19:30:26 <doktor5000> isadora: ok, understood 19:30:37 <ennael> doktor5000: we can organize in a dirty way :) 19:30:40 <ennael> mmm no :) 19:30:40 <wobo> let's do as all other teams: candidate and vote in the mailing list - within one week 19:31:05 <ennael> wobo: meaning candidates mail until friday evening 19:31:10 <ennael> then organize vote 19:31:14 <ennael> is that ok? 19:31:16 <marja> wobo: if someone else is willing to become bugsquad deputy leader, then I'll think about it 19:31:26 <doktor5000> well, there aren't that much possible candidates ... :/ 19:31:35 <isadora> ennael: ok 19:31:47 <ennael> it will give isadora some time to say yes :) 19:31:51 <wobo> ah, no candidates mail until Thursday, vote weekend 19:31:54 <ennael> (I'm not influencing :) ) 19:32:06 <isadora> ennael: ;) 19:32:07 <ennael> wobo: ? 19:32:09 <maat> Slow please 19:32:10 <wobo> So forum team leader(s) may attend council meeting on Monday 19:32:16 <maat> I cant follow 19:32:20 <ennael> ok so 19:32:30 <ennael> candidates can mail until friday 19:32:38 <ennael> explaining why they are applying 19:32:56 <ennael> on friday night we organize vote with epoll for example 19:32:59 <isadora> all: i have to make my apologies, i have to leave 19:33:04 <ennael> and let 3 days to vote 19:33:08 <marja> isadora: good night 19:33:14 <ennael> isadora: thanks for coming 19:33:22 <wobo> isadora: dream about us 19:33:24 <maat> Cya isadora 19:33:32 <ennael> wobo: :) 19:33:39 <ennael> is this planning ok for you ? 19:33:49 <isadora> goodnight all, have magical dreams!!! 19:33:52 <wobo> y 19:33:56 <marja> yes 19:34:05 <ennael> phew great :) 19:34:08 <maat> Yes 19:34:22 <ennael> #action candidates will mail forum-discuss to apply 19:34:26 <ennael> #undo 19:34:26 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x84427ac> 19:34:32 <ennael> #action candidates will mail forum-discuss to apply until friday night 19:34:55 <ennael> #action epoll will be used to organize elections of 2 leaders within 3 days 19:35:01 <ennael> ok ? 19:35:09 <marja> yep 19:35:13 <maat> Yes 19:35:16 <wobo> y 19:35:18 <ennael> great 19:35:43 <ennael> we need also to complete policies and rules 19:35:56 <maat> Agreed 19:36:02 <ennael> so that everybody use the same and cannot fight about it 19:36:13 <ennael> so we have 2 urls 19:36:23 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Forum_Rules 19:36:36 <ennael> http://www.mageia.org/en/about/code-of-conduct/ 19:36:47 <ennael> mageia code of conduct 19:36:51 <ennael> already written 19:37:09 <maat> Yep 19:37:11 <ennael> so 19:37:13 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Forum_Rules#User_rules 19:37:21 <maat> Good start 19:37:25 <ennael> + adding some specific things 19:37:37 <maat> Plus french law requirements 19:37:40 <ennael> ex: what is done if somebody does not follow it 19:37:56 <maat> Plus forum specific things yes 19:38:29 <ennael> #action complete https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Forum_Rules#User_rules using mageia code of conduct + forum specific items 19:38:33 <ennael> ok 19:38:44 <doktor5000> ennael: also https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2054 still waits for input, has many proposals 19:39:06 <wobo> we have to observe that people in the international forum come from very different cultural backgrounds, so written rules can only be very generic and it depends on the communication skills of the Global moderators/admins to enforce rules. 19:39:20 <ennael> wobo: I do agree 19:39:36 <ennael> doktor5000: this can be used to complete these "forum specific items" 19:39:41 <maat> Wobo +1 19:39:51 <ennael> #action use https://forums.mageia.org/en/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=2054 to complete user rules 19:40:10 <marja> is it possible to be "generic" and clear at the same time? 19:40:35 <ennael> outch nearly philosophical question :) 19:40:39 <wobo> marja: it has to be. 19:41:01 <doktor5000> marja: well, sort of "shut up" would be generic and clear :P 19:41:05 <ennael> ok what I propose is you work on wiki for these rules 19:41:07 <wobo> that's why I said that despite rules much depends on the skills of people involved 19:41:13 <maat> Marja rules do need to be user friendly 19:41:35 <wobo> and freindly to users :) 19:41:36 <ennael> well keep in mind you cannot plan all cases through these rules 19:41:36 <maat> But guides and howtos can help 19:41:44 <marja> OK, I'll let it sink in 19:41:47 <maat> Indeed 19:41:52 <ennael> ok 19:42:07 <ennael> What about completing this for friday night? 19:42:26 <ennael> and use ML to speak about items that need to be discussed ? 19:42:48 <maat> Not all perhaps... But let's see what we can do 19:42:51 <marja> I'm willing to try 19:42:56 <doktor5000> or #mageia-forums if working on wiki page together or so 19:43:00 <ennael> let's try hard :) 19:43:11 <marja> OK :) 19:43:16 <ennael> then we can focus on concrete things :) 19:43:19 <maat> :-) 19:43:39 <maat> Just a side note 19:44:16 <maat> A forum in sync with phpbb 3.0.11 19:44:31 <wobo> yes! 19:44:35 <maat> Is ready to be pushed 19:44:40 <marja> wow :) 19:44:44 <ennael> well 19:44:48 <wobo> yesyes! 19:44:53 <ennael> this point is to be seen with sysadmins 19:44:55 <maat> But well need a test place 19:45:16 <ennael> see on that precise point my comment : 19:45:25 <ennael> I'm working on updating forums, great 19:45:40 <ennael> I mail or post on forums explaining what I'm doing 19:45:56 <ennael> it will help people to understand what you are doing at one moment 19:46:04 <ennael> and make all these guys happy 19:46:34 <maat> Okthen 19:46:48 <ennael> it's something called communication 19:46:52 <ennael> nice trick :) 19:46:52 <maat> Let's make them all happy 19:47:20 <ennael> and we will throw flowers everywhere 19:47:21 <ennael> oups 19:47:22 <wobo> here we are entering into the "job descriptions" of possible forum positions 19:47:23 <ennael> sorry 19:48:11 <ennael> ok that was for user rules 19:48:34 <ennael> then we have moderation 19:48:35 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Forum_Rules#Moderation 19:49:08 <ennael> did you all have a look on it? 19:49:23 <marja> looking bettr now 19:49:58 <ennael> I'm not a forum specialist but it looks quite complete 19:50:08 <ennael> maybe we need a page dedicated to https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Forum_Rules#Who_can_be_a_moderator 19:50:12 <wobo> no, did not know that it existed. Looking closely during the meeting is not a good thing 19:50:19 <ennael> ok no pb 19:50:37 <ennael> I think we need a description of the current team 19:50:46 <ennael> even if it can extracted in forums 19:51:01 <maat> Hem 19:51:01 <maat> Need a look 19:51:01 <maat> Too 19:51:02 <ennael> and adding mentoring in progress for people who are apprentice 19:51:35 <maat> Ok for that 19:51:56 <ennael> all this should be public and transparent 19:52:15 <ennael> nothing to hide except maybe some hard conflicts but it's another thing 19:52:43 <ennael> stop me if you do not agree on some points 19:52:52 <ennael> or I will speak all the nigt 19:52:57 <ennael> you know girls :p 19:53:00 <maat> Once this last 19:53:33 <wobo> I'd like to compile a page what needs to be done in the way of positions and structures, what we need, (say, until Friday), including changes of the current situation (permissions, etc.) - how about that? 19:53:33 <maat> I .d be more prudent 19:53:51 <ennael> wobo: sure it will make things clearer 19:54:11 <wobo> parts of it would be things already discussed with Romain and others in the forum a while ago 19:54:27 <ennael> ok kind of summary 19:54:27 <maat> Let's just put pros & cons on the wiki 19:54:38 <ennael> maat: on what subject 19:55:07 <maat> Putting everything in public 19:55:29 <ennael> well as I see it in all other team there is no pb about this 19:55:34 <maat> As much as we can 19:55:50 <ennael> hidden things should be rare exceptions 19:56:05 <marja> maat: in doc team some things are discussed in private chats...... 19:56:06 <maat> Without legal issues I'd say 19:56:20 <marja> to avoid hurting people 19:56:43 <wobo> I see no pb with transparency, except discussions about what to do in real cases, avoiding to hurt single users 19:56:51 <ennael> yep 19:56:54 <wobo> marja: yes 19:56:55 <ennael> ok so 19:57:15 <ennael> #action wobo will compile a page what needs to be done in the way of positions and structures, what we need for friday 19:57:16 <maat> Marja: indeed 19:57:36 <ennael> transparency does not prevent private conversation 19:57:46 <maat> I'll give.a hand if I can spare time 19:57:48 <doktor5000> maat: there should also be transparency among forum moderators, if you know what i mean ;) 19:58:10 <ennael> wobo: where are you going to do this? 19:58:13 <ennael> forum? wiki? 19:58:45 <wobo> Wherever you want - I will compile it and then put into a wiki page - where? 19:59:32 <maat> Ok for wiki afaic 19:59:35 <ennael> let say https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Forum_evolution 19:59:40 <ennael> or whatever you want 20:00:00 <wobo> ok 20:00:13 <ennael> ok nice 20:01:01 <ennael> one thing also will be to include something about linking forums 20:01:02 <ennael> I mean 20:01:10 <ennael> fr, de and all others 20:01:16 <ennael> enzolyte is around for MLO 20:01:37 <ennael> would be great that forum team can also speak with other local forums 20:01:51 <marja> yes 20:01:51 <ennael> providing they are ok for this 20:02:34 <ennael> and also create a link between forum and other Mageia teams 20:02:41 <wobo> I suggested to Romain to put up links to existing forums in the header of the international forum (old mandriva like) 20:03:06 <ennael> yep that's something we can do but also make people speaking together 20:03:10 <doktor5000> interfacing between teams is definitely needed ... 20:03:24 <wobo> Oliver talked about that lately 20:03:28 <ennael> that's why it's important to have somebody in council also 20:03:51 <ennael> for example in release time we need it to make release criticalbugs known 20:04:15 <ennael> sometimes it's hard to follow forums when we are working on isos 20:04:23 * wobo has to leave, sorry! 20:04:26 <ennael> so having cross teams discussions will help 20:04:29 <marja> bye wobo :) 20:04:41 <wobo> G'night to all, will read log tomorrow 20:04:49 <ennael> and finally I'd like to have a second meeting next tuesday 20:04:55 <ennael> is that ok for you? 20:04:59 <marja> yes 20:05:00 <maat> Cya wobo 20:05:11 <wobo> tuesday ok 20:05:16 <ennael> same time same place 20:05:36 <maat> Ennael I hope so for tuesday 20:05:46 <ennael> #action second meeting for forum team is planned for 12/06 20:06:04 <ennael> I think it's important to have regular meetings at least for the beginning 20:06:33 <ennael> I should attend it also then when everything is under control I will let you organizing all this on your own 20:06:43 <ennael> is that ok? 20:06:44 <maat> Ok with the idea 20:07:09 <marja> yep 20:07:09 <ennael> ok 1h meeting now 20:07:18 <ennael> do you have comments, questions? 20:07:43 <doktor5000> will there be cookies? 20:07:47 <marja> grinz 20:07:48 <ennael> :) 20:07:50 <ennael> miam 20:07:56 <maat> Comnents later 20:08:04 <ennael> cookies and beer ok :) 20:08:19 <ennael> so if no other comments can we close that meeting? 20:08:20 <maat> For the while.ill.happy with this meeting 20:08:32 <maat> (typo) 20:08:55 <ennael> I really hope forum will have a real friendly team 20:08:59 <marja> I'm happy with the meeting too 20:09:02 <doktor5000> ahh - one comment 20:09:26 <doktor5000> what about the helpers group, i've applied like 5 weeks ago or so, who manages that currently? maat? 20:09:58 <maat> Doctor5000 would you like too manage.it ? 20:10:22 <ennael> just a stupid question :) what is helpers group? 20:10:28 <marja> oh, that would be great if doktor5000would manage it :) 20:10:33 <doktor5000> maat: well i'd like to be at least a member to to some bit of needed moderation, but why not? 20:10:50 <doktor5000> ennael: sort of like small moderators, limited to some subforums, not all rights 20:10:57 <ennael> ok 20:11:03 <maat> Just say yes then :) 20:11:11 <doktor5000> maat: yes 20:11:18 <maat> Ok 20:11:33 <maat> Just gimme till tomorrow 20:11:55 <doktor5000> manager of helpers ... 20:12:04 <ennael> #action doktor5000 will manage helpers group 20:12:06 * doktor5000 searches for his whip 20:12:07 <maat> With the android i'm not sure to do it properly 20:12:19 <ennael> ok can we close this meeting ? 20:12:25 <marja> doktor5000: you can add the guys who responded to the call for helpers 20:12:43 <maat> Yup 20:12:46 <marja> ennael OK 20:12:47 <doktor5000> marja: good idea, thanks :) 20:13:37 <maat> :) 20:14:05 <ennael> ok 20:14:12 <ennael> #endmeeting