20:05:10 <ennael> #startmeeting
20:05:10 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Tue Feb  8 20:05:10 2011 UTC.  The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:05:10 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:05:25 <shikamaru> haha
20:05:36 <ennael> :)
20:05:55 <AL13N> lol, i didn't think you found that as important as linuxchix :-D
20:06:02 <ahmad78> so, did you read the docs in the wiki about triage work?
20:06:12 <Dan___> nope
20:06:26 <shikamaru> ahmad78: not everything yet, have it under the eyes at the moment
20:07:07 <shikamaru> #info triage guide is located on the page: http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=triage_guide
20:07:24 <ahmad78> well, not just this one
20:07:24 <ennael> that should be a prerequire
20:07:25 <shikamaru> #info bug policy is available on this page: http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=bug_policy
20:07:41 <ahmad78> they're all linked from here http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=triage
20:07:49 <AL13N> (don't there have to be #chair and #topic commands first?)
20:08:26 <ennael> #chair ahmad78 ennael shikamaru
20:08:26 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: ahmad78 ennael shikamaru
20:08:35 <Dan___> i have 1 q: how much time do you think this triage work would take? (i'm not expecting anything exact)
20:09:04 <ennael> I d'ont think there is a fixed time
20:09:09 <shikamaru> Dan___: depends on how many bugs are opened in a given period I guess
20:09:10 <ennael> as any contribution for mageia
20:09:25 <shikamaru> and since we are a team any small contribution is useful :)
20:09:36 <ahmad78> yeah, it depends
20:09:58 <Dan___> ok... but let's say one bug? i have no ideea what i'm going to do
20:10:01 <ahmad78> some bugs take a short time to triage, some requires more time to investigate, try to reproduce... etc
20:10:17 <ahmad78> Dan___: read the docs, they detail the whole process
20:10:31 <ahmad78> if you have any questions post to the bugsquad ML
20:10:44 <ahmad78> (so that the questions and answers are archived)
20:11:03 <Dan___> ok
20:11:12 <ahmad78> and there're going to be a meeting on Tuesdays, same time like today, you can ask any q's in the meeting too of course
20:11:19 <ahmad78> (as the meeting will be logged)
20:12:02 <ennael> do you think we need to have more docs or more help for new guys entering triage team ?
20:12:34 <Dan___> no, i hate reading
20:12:41 <ahmad78> the docs aren't too bad
20:12:53 <AL13N> i would propose a flowchart of a bug's life
20:12:54 <ennael> was just a question :)
20:13:01 <AL13N> it's alot of text
20:13:06 <ahmad78> and triage is like packaging the more bugs you triage the more you become more experienced
20:13:08 <AL13N> a graph wouldn't be bad, imho
20:13:31 <ahmad78> AL13N: you're volunteering to make that graph?
20:13:31 <shikamaru> well, my concerns are related to the tools we have at the moment
20:13:41 <AL13N> ahmad78: i have no such skills, sadly
20:13:45 <shikamaru> ie, redirecting open bugs to a dedicated ml for instance
20:14:03 <ahmad78> shikamaru: well, we gotta have a release out first :)
20:14:08 <shikamaru> (mail is just more handy for me)
20:14:09 <AL13N> ahmad78: perhaps we can ask another team about that
20:14:35 <ennael> graph is planned in a more global review
20:14:51 <ennael> having statistics on bugzilla, svn, bs...
20:15:17 <AL13N> ennael: i was thinking more on a flowchart of triage team's work
20:15:24 <ennael> oh sorry
20:15:25 <ahmad78> I am not with or against a graph, as we'll be tutoring new members, walking them through triaging a number of bugs before letting go of their hands
20:15:28 <AL13N> like a helpful reminder of steps to do
20:15:39 <AL13N> ahmad78: perhaps marcom or art team can make it?
20:16:12 <ahmad78> sure
20:16:37 * shikamaru is ok for being mentored for triaging process
20:17:09 <AL13N> ahmad78: i have a specific question relating to packaging team
20:17:20 <ahmad78> go ahead
20:17:22 <AL13N> ahmad78: i donno if i should ask now?
20:17:23 <AL13N> k
20:17:40 <AL13N> well, do triage team have specific rights, packagers don't have?
20:17:58 <AL13N> ie: is it ok for packagers to help a tiny bit on triaging?
20:18:07 <ahmad78> no, bugzilla is open for all
20:18:16 <ahmad78> (bugzilla was open for all in mdv too)
20:18:16 <AL13N> or should they be mentored first?
20:18:49 <ahmad78> well, you'll see packagers/devs like tv, pterjan, tmb... etc doing triage if a bug catches their attention
20:19:15 <shikamaru> you can even open an issue and assign it to yourself :)
20:19:16 <AL13N> so packagers don't need mentoring?
20:19:28 <ahmad78> it's about understanding how the process works and most long-time packagers know that
20:19:33 <AL13N> ok
20:19:34 <ahmad78> AL13N: they need to read the docs
20:19:37 <AL13N> that's what i want to ask
20:19:56 <ahmad78> e.g. tv does examplery triaging
20:20:08 <ahmad78> (including correcting typos in bug summaries)
20:20:29 <AL13N> ahmad78: but he doesn't want to become part of triaging?
20:20:37 <ahmad78> AL13N: he is
20:20:45 <AL13N> ah, sorry, my bad
20:21:48 <AL13N> so, who can ask other teams with necessary skills to do flowchart?
20:22:30 <ahmad78> ennael, of course!
20:22:58 <ennael> AL13N: before asking you should define exactly what you want
20:23:09 <ennael> try to describe and write it
20:23:42 <AL13N> a flowchart that shows the steps a triage team member should evaluate when handling a bug
20:23:49 <AL13N> (aka a bugs' life)
20:24:02 <ennael> too generic
20:24:11 <ennael> thinks about planning we have all :)
20:24:17 <ahmad78> it doesn't make reading the docs any less important
20:24:17 <AL13N> can you explain what i mean?
20:24:19 <ennael> write some specifications
20:24:24 <AL13N> *you meant?
20:24:55 <AL13N> ahmad78: i'm just saying, i could be in the doc in the middle, so it breaks the text to keep people motivated into reading the rest
20:25:06 <andre999> maybe ahmad should write out all the steps (since he's the expert :) )
20:25:23 <ahmad78> I never liked graphs :0
20:25:27 <AL13N> lol
20:25:29 <ahmad78> :)*
20:26:12 <AL13N> i don't think i can write that specific, since i don't know how triaging works
20:26:30 <andre999> just the steps with the references/links,as a base for the flowchart
20:26:31 <shikamaru> how can one estimate the priority of a bug ? I mean, it’s a bit blur for me at the moment, even though the definition is quite clear
20:27:23 <andre999> I think that's something that you understand with experience
20:27:53 <ahmad78> shikamaru: well, a bug that crashes X is high, a bug that makes you paste twice to get the text pasted is normal
20:28:38 <shikamaru> that sounds ok, but I was more thinking about much used/less used packages
20:29:02 <ahmad78> shikamaru: that's a factor too
20:29:02 <shikamaru> I mean, if wmii crashes, but few people use it, should it be considered as high priority ?
20:29:38 <ahmad78> shikamaru: no, would be high severity, normal/low priority
20:29:38 <shikamaru> and what you describe looks more like severity
20:30:28 <shikamaru> ah I understand
20:30:37 <shikamaru> high severity, normal priority
20:30:53 <AL13N> should the docs be adapted to make this easier, or are they sufficient?
20:31:11 <ahmad78> they're sufficient, this is explained in detail
20:31:23 <AL13N> k
20:31:32 <ahmad78> (but the original guide was written by adamw, who was deeply involved in triage)
20:31:47 <shikamaru> about release_critical bugs, who can decide to delay the ISO until these bugs are fixed ? (I guess that should be the council, and it’s our role to mention them)
20:32:00 <ennael> yep
20:32:06 <ennael> triage team and QA team also
20:32:09 <ahmad78> yes
20:32:23 <shikamaru> ok thanks :)
20:34:09 <ahmad78> so, that's the best way, read the docs, ask any q's you want
20:34:35 <andre999> on the mandriva bugzilla page there is a display error - severity and priority labels appear on the same line
20:35:35 <andre999> it should be fixed for mageia (if not already done)
20:35:48 <ahmad78> what's wrong with the same line?
20:36:20 <andre999> the entry field for priority is on the line below
20:36:41 <andre999> under the severity label
20:36:47 <AL13N> ah, you mean the label isn't at the same height as it's field
20:36:48 <ahmad78> andre999: that's on the bug report page, or when filing a bug report?
20:36:57 <andre999> exactly
20:37:16 <andre999> filing a bug report
20:37:52 <ahmad78> https://qa.mandriva.com/enter_bug.cgi?product=Mandriva%20Linux&format=guided ?
20:38:00 <andre999> I'm always distracted by the bug I'm reporting, so I never reported it
20:38:32 <ahmad78> I don't see it yet
20:39:52 <andre999> it was on the advanced page
20:40:17 <AL13N> is it browser dependant bug?
20:40:26 <andre999> it seems to have been fixed
20:40:55 <ahmad78> that's why I don't see it :)
20:41:02 <ahmad78> so any other questions?
20:41:24 <shikamaru> another thing we should probably request is some statistics about packages (but provided mirrors can give us such statistics :)
20:41:46 <ahmad78> shikamaru: what sor of statistics?
20:42:09 <shikamaru> about number of downloads for a given package for instance
20:42:41 <shikamaru> (does not necessarily mean that the package is used often however)
20:43:13 <AL13N> shikamaru: i guess alot of people use iso
20:43:13 <shikamaru> but it would give an insight of how many people may be impacted and raise/lower the priority of the bug
20:43:42 <ahmad78> well, there was never such statistic
20:43:42 <ahmad78> s
20:43:56 <ahmad78> but you know more ppl use Amarok than Clementine :p
20:43:59 <shikamaru> well, I think distrib-coffee used to provide these :)
20:44:15 <shikamaru> maybe other mirrors have such statistics
20:44:16 <ahmad78> ah, well, I never knew of it
20:44:20 <AL13N> :s Clementine
20:44:31 <AL13N> ah, sophie isn't here
20:44:42 <andre999> mageia-appdb will have statistics - eventually
20:44:44 <shikamaru> ahmad78: was there http://distrib-coffee.ipsl.jussieu.fr/stats/
20:45:07 <ahmad78> ok, so that would be a nice feature indeed
20:45:18 <shikamaru> ah yes, forgot appstream, if many people comment on a given package it can be used too
20:45:30 <ahmad78> but you can know alot of ppl are impacted when you get 5+ duplicate reports of the same bug
20:45:47 <shikamaru> yes, votes too
20:45:56 <AL13N> does the number of CCs also indicate this?
20:46:06 <ahmad78> shikamaru: well, votes were always mis-used
20:46:10 <ahmad78> misused
20:46:22 <shikamaru> ah :/
20:46:24 <andre999> votes mean users recognize that they have the same bug
20:46:50 <ahmad78> kinda of "hey, my friend is impacted by this bug, so I'll do him a favour and vote for this bug even if I don't use it"
20:47:06 <andre999> ahmad is our online spellchecker :)
20:47:19 <shikamaru> another question about triaging process is about how often we should ask if a bug is still valid, and when it’s resolved as OLD
20:48:05 <shikamaru> I guess we can query bugzilla to know when the last activity of a bug occured
20:48:47 <ahmad78> shikamaru: yes, actually I would very much like to have this automated
20:49:00 <ahmad78> e.g. redhat bugzilla has a bot that does this
20:49:30 <ahmad78> shikamaru: also note that a short time before a release devs/packagers/triage shake the bug trees asking if bugs are still valid
20:50:43 <ahmad78> what I hated was when someone tried to ask about 1year+ bug if it still valid or not
20:51:10 <ahmad78> any more questions?
20:51:28 <AL13N> i have a question regarding triage team setup?
20:51:55 <ahmad78> shoot
20:52:36 <ahmad78> AL13N: beep!
20:52:42 <AL13N> ah
20:52:53 <AL13N> i mean, is the team gonna be setup now?
20:53:13 <AL13N> ie: representative, leader, vice-leader, peers, others ?
20:53:50 <ahmad78> good question, the important part for me is I don't want to be team leader
20:54:16 <AL13N> ahmad78: but you can be vice-teamleader?
20:54:29 <ahmad78> I think shikamaru being in France, could be the team rep. to the board/council
20:54:41 <AL13N> what about tv ?
20:54:45 <ahmad78> he'll be able to attend the meetings... etc (like Fosdem)
20:55:01 <ahmad78> I don't know if tv has enough time, but we should certainly ask
20:55:05 <shikamaru> mmh well, I’m not experienced at all at the moment, would also prefer tv :)
20:55:30 <AL13N> shikamaru: i meant tv for team-leader, and shikamaru for representative to council/board
20:55:31 <shikamaru> but I’m not against that once I get comfortable with the process :)
20:55:32 <AL13N> or vice versa
20:55:56 <AL13N> is there other people?
20:56:09 <AL13N> or is triage team only ahmad78, shikamaru, tv ?
20:56:16 <AL13N> (active members i mean)
20:56:24 <ahmad78> and Dan___ by the looks of it
20:56:25 <shikamaru> no, Dan___ is here too
20:56:41 <Dan___> ?
20:56:46 <AL13N> lol
20:56:53 <ahmad78> Dan___: you asked a question in reply to the email on the mailing list?
20:57:04 <ahmad78> about how much time is needed for triage, right?
20:57:10 <ahmad78> (I forgot to answer :/)
20:57:17 <Dan___> yep, kindoff a week ago
20:57:52 <ahmad78> sorry about that
20:58:27 <Dan___> no prob
20:58:46 <shikamaru> AL13N: stef74 might be active too, but he’s often working remotely from his home (like I do)
20:59:02 <ahmad78> yes, stef74 too
20:59:34 <AL13N> ahmad78: tbf, i think you're one of the most active members of triage, but i don't exactly know what is required about being present physically in person of teamleader
20:59:52 <AL13N> ahmad78: however, except that, imho (but i'm not on triage team), i think you would be great to lead this team
20:59:59 <shikamaru> also, note that I cannot be every
21:00:02 <shikamaru> where :)
21:00:09 <ahmad78> I don't do "manage" well
21:00:20 <ahmad78> so I am delegating the headache :)
21:00:48 <AL13N> but does the representative have to be the team leader?
21:00:52 <AL13N> possilbly not
21:01:22 <ahmad78> no, but he should be able to be at the board meetings, which sometimes happen in FOSDEM
21:01:33 <ahmad78> so someone in Europe is more suited for that
21:01:47 <AL13N> i'm not 100% certain of that, but i can be wrong
21:02:07 <AL13N> afaik, there was option to have someone remotely present as well
21:02:58 <AL13N> ahmad78: but it is your choice, so i'm not gonna press
21:03:03 <AL13N> ahmad78: in any case
21:03:05 <AL13N> if not now
21:03:08 <ahmad78> yeah :)
21:03:14 <ahmad78> so any more questions?
21:03:17 <AL13N> when do we set up the team?
21:03:24 <AL13N> _when_
21:03:48 <AL13N> i mean, i thought that board wants to have teams set up asap?
21:03:57 <ahmad78> we'll contact tv and see if wants to take the leadership
21:04:01 <ennael> would be nice to have it ready for alpha
21:04:05 <ahmad78> I am not rushed
21:04:11 <ahmad78> we don't have any bugs yet :)
21:04:38 <AL13N> ahmad78: i think the team setup is also important for the board meetings to replace founders meetings
21:04:44 <shikamaru> mmh well a last question from me, would you like to mentor me when we get bugs ? :)
21:05:03 <ahmad78> shikamaru: yes, you already know a lot about the process ;)
21:05:27 <ahmad78> shikamaru: we can use bugs from mdv bugzilla for the tutoring
21:05:53 <AL13N> :-D
21:06:01 <shikamaru> ok :)
21:07:14 <shikamaru> sorry, must wake up at 5 tomorrow, gtg
21:07:16 <AL13N> end of meeting then?
21:07:37 <AL13N> it's +1h
21:07:55 <ahmad78> yeah
21:08:07 <ahmad78> ennael: so let's wrap up!
21:08:13 <ennael> ok :)
21:08:16 <ennael> #endmeeting