19:02:38 <DavidWHodgins> #startmeeting
19:02:38 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Thu Sep  9 19:02:38 2021 UTC.  The chair is DavidWHodgins. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:02:38 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:02:44 <DavidWHodgins> #topic * Who's new? - If you are then come and say hello
19:02:58 <DavidWHodgins> Anyone here who hasn't been to a qa team irc meeting before?
19:03:26 <DavidWHodgins> #topic * EFI boot problems
19:03:36 <wilcal> Definition?
19:04:02 <DavidWHodgins> wilcal: I gather you've found that having multiple installations on the same hard drive doesn't work very well anymore
19:04:20 <wilcal> Did this happen with a Kernel update?
19:04:35 <wilcal> I do something special
19:04:49 <wilcal> I ONLY have one install per "drive"
19:05:01 <wilcal> be that a usb, HD or SSD
19:05:11 <wilcal> no multiple installs
19:05:38 <wilcal> with the speed and cheapness of fast usb drive, as in $10, why go to the trouble
19:05:51 <DavidWHodgins> With the old grub-legacy, it was easy to install grub to the partition instead of to a master boot record, and use a boot manager such as the gag boot manager to select which install to boot
19:06:10 <DavidWHodgins> It made it easy to keep each install from altering other installs.
19:06:19 <wilcal> Yes and that was important so long as drives were expensise
19:06:33 <wilcal> Why go to the stress
19:06:37 <Guygoye[m]> wilcal: All is fine with kernel for me
19:06:47 <DavidWHodgins> With the introduction of grub2, the option to install to the partition was removed from the installer. Likewise with grub2-efi
19:06:56 <Bequimao> I have Efi and multiple installs. No problem here.
19:07:11 <wilcal> So this is kernel specific
19:07:20 <DavidWHodgins> Same here. I'm using one install per drive, and the refind boot manager
19:08:09 <Bequimao> I use grub2-install --bootloader-id xxxx /dev/sda and switch with efibootmgr.
19:08:54 <DavidWHodgins> During boot of an efi system, the uefi firmware uses entries store in it's nvram for selecting what to boot. On many systems that boot  menu is only shown if you press a key during boot (esc, f1, f8, f10, etc.)
19:09:17 <wilcal> really important, I think, the /boot/EFI/EFI structure MUST be maintained
19:09:59 <DavidWHodgins> Keep in mind there should normally only be on ESP on the computer. Not one per install or one per drive.
19:10:04 <wilcal> that was the fix that TMB worked out with me where if you went back and forth between removable boot able media the boot records could get borked
19:10:12 <DavidWHodgins> It's shared by all of the operating systems.
19:10:46 <DavidWHodgins> An exception allows an ESP from a live iso to be used, when booting from an externel drive such as a usb stick
19:11:20 <wilcal> Yes, we have to be very careful to be sure that works after whatever fix we do
19:11:53 <DavidWHodgins> Extreme care must be taken when altering them. Normally everything just works. When it does get messed up, it's a pain to recover from.
19:12:29 <DavidWHodgins> Also be extremely careful altering directories or files in /sys/firmware/efi
19:12:53 <DavidWHodgins> If you delete everything there, the system will be bricked
19:13:31 <DavidWHodgins> It provides direct access to the settings stored in the nvram (equivalent to the old cmos data)
19:13:58 * treegazer also prefers to run one OS per drive (with the exception of running VMware and guust VMs)
19:14:07 <DavidWHodgins> Without it, the system cannot find any hardware, such as a usb contoller or a pci controller
19:15:00 * treegazer likes to install new release to new drive (or re-used old drive) and keep current drive as a backup
19:15:09 <DavidWHodgins> So never alter anything in /sys/firmware/efi, unless you are using a program provided by the computer manufacturer and know exactly what you are doing
19:15:37 <DavidWHodgins> Even with one install per drive, there is only one ESP used.
19:16:10 <treegazer> does that mean the ESP can be duplicated across drives for one_OS_per_drive ?
19:16:15 <DavidWHodgins> It should be created once and formatted once for the life of the computer. Don't reformat it when doing additional installs
19:17:35 <DavidWHodgins> Normally it will use the one on /dev/sda or whatever the first drive is. That may be able to be changed in the uefi setup menu, depending on the make/model of the computer
19:18:44 <DavidWHodgins> If you choose to use grub2-efi, the only option on new installs is to install it to the mbr of a drive, hence the recommendation to use only one install per drive
19:19:34 <DavidWHodgins> I prefer to use refind. Like the esp, it only needs to be installed once, and does not have to be updated for each kernel install
19:20:25 <DavidWHodgins> With it, you select which install you want, and optionally which kernel within that install to boot.
19:20:38 <Bequimao> DavidWHodgins: Again why? All installs here are found by os-prober.
19:20:50 <DavidWHodgins> I find with grub2-efi, it's hard with multiple Mageia installs to figure out which entry is for which install
19:21:28 <treegazer> So, I noticed something taht puzzles me: I have a UEFI laptop with pre-installed NVMe ssd with windoze. I bought another NVMe ssd for Mageia. I removed the windoz ssd and inserted the new ssd. Installed it and all was fine. here is the odd thing: from time to time I get notifications (from HP) about security updates for drivers or firmware. I can switch the SSDs and boot Windoze to run the HP update. All OK. However, when I swap out the 'doze for
19:21:28 <treegazer> my mageia ssd it doesn't boot. I fugured out how to rescue it but I am puzed why this happens?
19:21:28 <DavidWHodgins> If you have the same kernel installed in multiple installs grub2 doesn't make it obvious which one is for which install
19:21:43 <Bequimao> No, there is the efi bootnum to distinguish.
19:23:37 <DavidWHodgins> I always disable os prober. When I had i586 and x86_64 installs for 3 releases, the menu took more than one screen which grub2 doesn't handle well
19:23:52 <treegazer> another question: does it matter where the ESP partition is? It does not *have* to be the first partition on the drive, right?
19:23:55 <DavidWHodgins> Also had multiple kernels for each install
19:24:24 <DavidWHodgins> treegazer: Corrrect. My understanding is that it will use the first one encountered during boot
19:24:35 <Bequimao> http://paste.debian.net/1211154/
19:24:36 <[mbot> debian Pastezone
19:25:07 <Bequimao> it is /dev/sda3 here. It doesn not matter.
19:25:46 <DavidWHodgins> efibootmgr shows the uefi boot menu, but you have to have already booted to be able to run it
19:26:47 <Bequimao> any problem, I repair boot with a live usb stick.
19:26:56 <DavidWHodgins> Anyway, if you run into problems, don't guess. Ask for help. It's easy to make things worse for formatting or deleting things without understanding what impact it will have.
19:27:24 <DavidWHodgins> Bequimao: That won't work if you delete the contents of /sys/firmware/efi. It won't be able to find the usb stick
19:27:48 <DavidWHodgins> "rm -rf /" will brick any efi system
19:28:25 <treegazer> Ah, that's the reason why our liveUSB makes use of the live DVD image: The system thinks it's booting from CD/dvd?
19:29:00 <DavidWHodgins> It uses the ESP from the first drive detected, in that case it will be the usb stick it booted from
19:30:08 <treegazer> So does that mean there is an ESP in the liveUSB image?
19:30:14 <DavidWHodgins> Yes
19:30:43 <treegazer> but how can that liveUSB ESP match any ESP in the internal drive?
19:31:21 <treegazer> maybe I misunderstood but I thought the ESP had to be thesame on all drives?
19:32:58 <DavidWHodgins> If you look in /EFI/BOOT  on a live iso, you'll see there is one, and only one entry in it, that is for grub2. It's gru2 that allows booting the internal systems or the iso
19:33:32 <DavidWHodgins> s /gru2/grub2/
19:34:09 <treegazer> ok, thanks
19:34:33 <DavidWHodgins> The esp is used for the UEFI boot menu, not the grub2 or refind menu. The uefi menu is hidden on most systems unless you press a key to select it during poweron
19:34:47 <DavidWHodgins> s /poweron/boot/
19:35:06 <DavidWHodgins> On my asus, it's only shown if I press the esc key during boot
19:35:34 <DavidWHodgins> Otherwise it goes to the grub2-efi or refind menu from the esp on the first drive
19:36:12 <wilcal> Hi TJ
19:36:18 <MageiaTJ> Hi.
19:36:20 <wilcal> Talk'n EFI problems
19:36:37 <MageiaTJ> Nevr touch the stuff.
19:36:40 <treegazer> sorry to distract from the QA meeting with mu EUFI questions. I'll take the discussion for another venue.
19:36:45 <DavidWHodgins> So there are two different levels of menus. Uefi first, grub2 or refind next.
19:36:56 <treegazer> oopsie: s/EUFI/UEFI/ ;-)
19:37:04 <wilcal> IMO any discussion on this is good discussion
19:37:30 <wilcal> Is this a problem for just the normal user? One drive, one system install
19:37:51 <treegazer> define "normal user". ;-)
19:37:51 <DavidWHodgins> Agreed. It's important to understand, especially when you have multiple installs as it's easy to mess things up.
19:38:17 <wilcal> Even with lots of apps, just one drive, one system install
19:38:34 <DavidWHodgins> A user who only has one windows install and one linux install will not see any of  these problems unless they tinker with things by mistake
19:38:37 <wilcal> drive being widely defined
19:38:50 <MageiaTJ> I'll probably have to switch over . Eventually
19:39:14 <wilcal> No windows install. Just Mageia 8. Nothing else
19:39:55 <DavidWHodgins> It's extremely difficult now to find a computer that isn't uefi
19:41:00 <DavidWHodgins> Even my 2012 system is uefi, though it defaults to booting in legacy bios mode unless I intervene during boot
19:41:14 <MageiaTJ> Most of mine have it - I just switch it off.
19:41:42 * treegazer hardly ever uses my Windoze drive but I may as well keep it. It is a "proper" licensed copy and occasionally I have to do something in 'doze. Like today, I needed to convert an animated slide from a powerpoint file to an mp4. Turns out it is an easy option in powerpoint to export slides to an mp4. I could not find same in LibreOffice Impress.
19:42:07 <wilcal> I have a number of 3T drives and bigger
19:42:09 <Bequimao> I missed Mageia 1 through 4 due to the lack of efi support.
19:42:47 <MageiaTJ> This 2010 HP laptop has uefi capability.
19:43:01 <treegazer> zbook?
19:43:25 <MageiaTJ> Probook 6550b.
19:43:47 <DavidWHodgins> I bricked a star labtop system the first time I tried to boot in legacy bios mode
19:44:05 <treegazer> ouch!
19:44:46 <treegazer> <touch wood> haven't bricked anything yet... A trap waiting to catch me out. LOL
19:44:46 <wilcal> I have only one very old Dell laptop on Legacy M8 64-bit
19:44:51 <DavidWHodgins> The only thing I salvaged from it was the nvram drive that I added to a laptop I bought to replace it.
19:45:11 <DavidWHodgins> It's the first time I've bricked a computer
19:45:34 <DavidWHodgins> a $1200 (Can) learning experience
19:45:47 * treegazer feels your pain
19:45:51 <MageiaTJ> Morning, Ben.
19:46:02 <DavidWHodgins> https://www.amazon.ca/gp/r.html?C=2JG4V7T7UJ2XJ&K=YOFAPVV9B2T&M=urn:rtn:msg:20190626085329d2f7f9b2b08644bc807935627ce0p0na&R=RMDF1W5TUOZK&T=C&U=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2Fdp%2FB07FTSXQMF%2Fref%3Dpe_3034960_236394800_TE_3p_dp_1&H=AUNFWEB2DEZF4BHIKAURLO82NUCA&ref_=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_3p_dp_1
19:46:03 <wilcal> Fun with hard drives. Boot: https://www.killdisk.com
19:46:05 <[mbot> How to erase hard drive securely - Active@ KillDisk: Disk Eraser, Disk Wiper & Disk Sanitizer
19:46:22 <DavidWHodgins> That's the laptop I bricked
19:46:29 <treegazer> erm, just dd all zeros?
19:46:38 <wilcal> Hi Ben We're talking EFI boot issue
19:46:47 <DavidWHodgins> brb
19:47:03 <benmc> still!
19:47:14 <wilcal> Yes, very complex
19:47:42 <wilcal> Seems to only effect multi OS boots on one drive. 3 installs or more
19:47:44 <benmc> Hi TJ, all others
19:47:58 <wilcal> probably came up wiith a recent kernel update
19:48:12 <wilcal> Undefined which one
19:48:31 <DavidWHodgins> back
19:49:19 <DavidWHodgins> Ok. Any specific questions on efi booting or shall we move on?
19:49:45 <wilcal> Lots of good discussion documented here
19:49:56 <wilcal> This is probably going to continue on for awhile
19:50:09 <wilcal> Good job folks
19:50:11 <DavidWHodgins> Just be very careful what you format or delete
19:50:32 <DavidWHodgins> #topic * Testing and using Mageia 8
19:51:07 * treegazer thinks have to keep in mind that UEFI is designed to secure the boot process (and make it difficult to do unusual booting)
19:51:19 <treegazer> oopsie, sorry... slow
19:51:47 <wilcal> I tinkered with tor and just could not get that running here
19:51:54 <DavidWHodgins> The list is getting very long again. Rather then going through each of the bugs, any specific ones causing problems?
19:52:06 <wilcal> kept getting errors with using your set up
19:52:56 <DavidWHodgins> The services must be running, and the browser configured to use the tor socks5 proxy
19:54:19 <DavidWHodgins> We can go over it again if you'd like. Post to the ml what services are running, what proxy config is set in the browser and what error is encountered
19:55:01 <wilcal> I'll tinker with again and post in the bug
19:55:19 <DavidWHodgins> Ok. I'll watch it
19:55:27 <wilcal> I'm also testing in a Vbox client. I don't know if that's an issue
19:55:47 <wilcal> network bridged
19:57:08 <DavidWHodgins> Shouldn't matter. The networking is still done the same way from the tor service to the tor network
19:57:57 <DavidWHodgins> Instead of http>website it's http>tor service>tor network>website
19:58:45 <DavidWHodgins> Anyway, this meeting is draggin on.
19:58:47 <DavidWHodgins> #topic * Anything else?
19:58:53 <MageiaTJ> Firefox and T-bird are working well for me.
19:58:54 <wilcal> Not from me
19:59:01 <wilcal> Thanks David. Super meeting
19:59:13 <wilcal> Deep dive into EFI :-)
19:59:20 <DavidWHodgins> Looks like countdown time then
19:59:28 <DavidWHodgins> t - 5
19:59:31 <DavidWHodgins> 5
19:59:34 <DavidWHodgins> 4
19:59:36 <DavidWHodgins> 3
19:59:39 <DavidWHodgins> 2
19:59:41 <DavidWHodgins> 1
19:59:49 <DavidWHodgins> Thanks for coming everyone
19:59:51 <HDR> bye
19:59:54 <DavidWHodgins> #endmeeting