19:10:10 <MrsB> #startmeeting
19:10:10 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Thu Apr 21 19:10:10 2016 UTC.  The chair is MrsB. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:10:10 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:10:22 <MrsB> Hi all, welcome to another one
19:10:39 <MrsB> #chair wilcal
19:10:39 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: MrsB wilcal
19:10:46 <MrsB> hmm need one more
19:11:20 <MrsB> sorry one sec
19:11:24 <wilcal> hviaene
19:12:06 <MrsB> sorry, bad timing
19:12:10 <MrsB> #chair hviaene
19:12:10 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: MrsB hviaene wilcal
19:12:14 <MrsB> :D
19:12:28 <MrsB> Let's go then Dave
19:12:29 <wilcal> drafted
19:13:00 <MrsB> #Who's new?
19:13:12 <MrsB> #topic Who's new?
19:13:22 <MrsB> there we go, out of practise :\
19:13:34 <MrsB> Is there anybody new here today?
19:14:03 <MrsB> doesn't loko like it
19:14:15 <MrsB> #topic Mageia 6
19:14:36 <MrsB> #info We have a proposed schedule for Mageia 6
19:14:37 <wilcal> Ahhh ya lots of wrinkles in the last days or so
19:14:46 <MrsB> let me get this out first
19:14:49 <wilcal> what is new schedule
19:15:16 <MrsB> #info It's quite a tight schedule so it will be a busy period of testing
19:16:01 <MrsB> #info We won't have a dev2 because things have moved a long way already. We'll start with stabilisation snapshot 1 (don't ask me what we'll call t tho)
19:16:23 <brian__> sounds like alpha to me
19:16:46 <MrsB> #info Planning for Stab 1? (ie. beta1) release on 2016-05-09
19:17:30 <wilcal> that's still a couple weeks off
19:17:31 <MrsB> #info then stab 2? (beta 2) release 2016-06-01
19:17:51 <hviaene> Ridiculous
19:18:12 <MrsB> #info then RC 2016-06-17 and final 2016-06-29
19:18:15 <wilcal> actually when I had it running here the underlying system ran pretty well
19:18:29 <brian__> that is optimistic methink <but hey, I'm amateur>
19:18:58 <tmb> yeah, but the other option is to push the release to ~september
19:19:04 <wilcal> ya but if they miss this schedule it's gonna push into Sept/Oct
19:19:30 <MrsB> This also aligns well with upstream things
19:19:33 <tmb> since july/august is usally pretty slow ... devs seems to like to enjoy summer :)
19:19:52 <wilcal> ya
19:20:17 <MrsB> If all are clear what the priorities are and work towards stabilising the release then it's doable
19:20:41 <tmb> and since both Gnome and Plasma have started properly stabilizing its ~the righ thing to do :)
19:20:52 <wilcal> i wanna see the next Plasma Live media that'll tell me how we are look'
19:21:11 <MrsB> That would mean we would need to keep testing times quite short, so we absolutely need things to go smoothly
19:21:33 <tmb> yep
19:21:43 <wilcal> except for some major irritation things on Plasma I was pretty comfortable with it
19:21:56 <MrsB> Any thoughts on all this?
19:22:31 <wilcal> This one drives me crazy:
19:22:32 <wilcal> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18207
19:22:34 <[mbot> Bug 18207: normal, Normal, mageia, NEW , Opening a .txt document shifts the desktop left and off the table
19:22:44 <MrsB> i mean the schedule
19:22:52 <wilcal> it's kinda everywhere in plasma
19:23:18 <brian__> ambitious.  Are we sharing that out to the world or keeping it internal to Mageia Community for now?
19:23:22 <wilcal> i see the schedule as tight but doable cuz what I saw that worked is pretty good
19:23:43 <brian__> I never got it to work, so <shrug>
19:23:45 <MrsB> After testing they're pushed to the mirrors
19:23:49 <wilcal> my house of cards went down here on an update on Tues
19:24:23 <brian__> ok - so run dorsync or am I downloading from another location?
19:24:42 <tmb> If nothing unexpected happends, I hope to have first live medias out this weekend
19:24:47 <MrsB> dorsync/mageiasync as normal.
19:24:56 <wilcal> HORRRAAYYYY!!!!
19:25:04 <wilcal> that would be nice
19:25:14 <Akien> How do you guys envision testing the ISOs to avoid a tiring process like dev1?
19:25:18 <MrsB> #info possibly first live medias this weekend
19:26:04 <Akien> I'm thinking it would be nice to have news ISOs say every week (and maybe more often while really trying to get an intermediate release out), so that the state can always be closely monitored
19:26:05 <MrsB> It's always been a tiring process, but we have to rely on you guys to make things stable
19:26:07 <wilcal> takes me about 2-hours from a blank drive to a full up running system for me with all my apps
19:26:10 <tarazed> One thing which slows the process is testing desktops in separate installs.
19:26:42 <MrsB> yeah it's time consuming
19:26:44 <brian__> that tight of a schedule - you'll need fresh every couple of days won't you?
19:26:53 <wilcal> live media isos also are easy to work with with Vbox
19:27:28 <MrsB> Akien: Do you have concerns? now's the time to air them
19:27:44 <Akien> I don't have concerns about QA's job, you're always doing a very good job :D
19:27:49 <wilcal> will we also have CI's?
19:28:00 <Akien> But I'd like to see some kind of CI yeah
19:28:00 <MrsB> regarding weekly isos, that's the idea with openqa
19:28:44 <tmb> one thing to remember is to "split the workload" so everyone test different iso/de/arch to get fast "first impressions"
19:28:47 <Akien> Basically considering that we're aiming for stable right now. A few persons test the weekly ISOs (not everybody, as most people face the same issues anyway, so it's a lot of time lost when things are clearly broken)
19:29:12 <MrsB> Neal Gompa is concerned about the dnf  feature he's been working on tmb, did you see the email to council?
19:29:28 <wilcal> if i get live media this weekend I'll have both arch's up on Vbox here by Sunday evening
19:29:34 <Akien> And then the two weeks before the planned intermediate releases, there should of course be some more testers to try all combinations of DEs, arches, etc.
19:29:50 <tmb> MrsB, not yet, I have some ~10000 mail backlog right now...
19:30:04 <Akien> Ouch
19:30:09 <MrsB> Akien: OpenQA will take care of weekly/daily tests, but it's not in place yet
19:30:30 <Akien> MrsB: Yeah, it would be nice to have it. So I'm wondering how we could achieve something similar with human forces :)
19:30:59 <MrsB> realistically, with difficulty. Some QA members are using mga6 now though
19:31:06 <Akien> Right now the typical workflow is: get stab1 build1, everybody tests it, reports issues, then get build2, and repeat.
19:31:19 <wilcal> is it that some apps have GTX problems I think. Funky icons and things like in Audacity?
19:31:30 <Akien> When we finally manage to get stab1 out, everybody is exhausted, so there are no new ISOs to test until we start thinking about stab2
19:31:31 <Akien> etc.
19:31:39 <MrsB> yeah, openqa is ready and we were hoping to have it in use by now
19:32:14 <MrsB> the idea was it would pre-test the built iso and if it basically installed ok then we'd all have a go
19:32:16 <Akien> It would be nice to have something more continuous, with a base workload until the final release, and some more work around the milestones
19:32:35 <MrsB> Yep, but we don't atm
19:32:40 <Akien> Yeah that would be very helpful
19:33:27 <Akien> I admit I don't have a miracle workflow that would make this better even without openqa :D
19:34:03 <Akien> Just voicing some ideas about how to all keep our sanity during this exhausting phase :)
19:34:24 <MrsB> unless somebody can volunteer to be available to perform first tests before everyone else then there's no real "fix" for that situation
19:35:11 <wilcal> well i get a lot of tmb's stuff when he finishes in the evening and I can have a first look for him when he gets up
19:35:40 <MrsB> sysadmins are a bit backlogged atm unfortunately
19:35:45 <Akien> Maybe there could be improved communication about who does what; e.g. if wilcal starts testing KDE classical ISOs that were freshly built, other testers would know that they'd better try another ISO, because wilcal might notice a showstopper bug, so it's not necessary that everyone goes through the pain of making a VM, dumping the ISO, or similar
19:35:57 <Akien> (during the "low intensity" phase I mean)
19:36:19 <Akien> i.e. while testing recurrent ISO builds that are not specifically meant for release, but more for testing progress
19:36:19 <MrsB> Well pad is used to show what everyone is working on (or should be)
19:36:43 <Akien> For the ~10 days before an actual milestone of course I don't have a solution to improve the workflow :D
19:36:55 <Akien> I'm thinking more about these inbetween times
19:36:59 <wilcal> I usually report first on riseup
19:37:12 <MrsB> We all know the problems, just no simple answers
19:37:18 <Akien> Yeah
19:37:29 <wilcal> where do you see the most problems?
19:37:34 <wilcal> Plasma?
19:37:48 <wilcal> Gnome looked pretty good
19:37:48 <MrsB> We don't know yet
19:38:13 <brian__> I couldn't get a clean install.  Any news on fresh standard iso's?
19:38:51 <MrsB> Thomas said there may be live isos this weekend, ISOs are normally built about a week before release date
19:39:15 <MrsB> It might help us to start now though and allow an extra week for stab/beta 1
19:39:27 <wilcal> Lots of changes in M6 repo so I think you could never get a clean install with the boot,iso
19:39:35 <brian__> I'll sit tight for the live builds then
19:39:40 <wilcal> new boot.iso and repo should help
19:39:58 <wilcal> the live media is a very good stake in the ground
19:40:05 <tmb> well, KDE -> Plasma is a bigger change than the Gnome version bump this time around... seems sddm/plasma atleast has some of the issues with hw/software rendering/acceleration that gdm had in ~mga4
19:40:29 <wilcal> ya that's for sure tmb
19:40:36 <MrsB> ennael will be emailing devs/packagers later so attention can switch to stabilising things rather than adding new
19:40:38 <wilcal> try audacity :-))
19:40:51 <tmb> but there have been some fixes in that area post -dev1 so hopefully :)
19:41:13 <MrsB> sooner we can test them the better really tmb
19:41:35 <Bequimao> wilcal: why then ship boot.iso at this moment?
19:41:35 <wilcal> i've some more bugs in my pocket to report but will wait for the new live media
19:41:50 <wilcal> it's generated automatically I believe
19:42:14 <tmb> And the new virtualbox 5.0.18 should hopefully also behave better than before with acceleration ... if one want to belive the last changelog
19:42:23 <Akien> About Plasma, keep in mind that many of the issues are upstream bugs. It's sad to say but the current release is far from being as stable as KDE4 was. So please report the bugs at Mageia, and when asked for also upstream, but don't be surprised if they're not all fixed for Mageia 6, it sadly won't be doable.
19:42:34 <wilcal> new Vbox looks good
19:42:56 <MrsB> tmb Neal is worried needed sysadmin stuff for the dnf feature is not completed yet, which is giving him time concerns
19:43:07 <Akien> Of course Plasma should still provide a relatively good experience right now, even though there are some serious bugs.
19:43:20 <wilcal> it does Akien
19:43:33 <wilcal> OpenShot seems more stable in Plasma
19:43:44 <wilcal> it looks very very good there
19:43:55 <brian__> when new standard ISO's come out, I'll look at xfce and gnome
19:44:08 <brian__> live's this weekend, I'll sync those and see what happens  :-)
19:44:13 <MrsB> #info It's important that all bugs are reported please, and especially with plasma bugs to report them upstream if you are asked to do so
19:44:34 <MrsB> morning Benmc
19:44:50 <brian__> ?  is dual-arch gone forever?
19:45:08 <Benmc> QA, MrsB, good morning
19:45:19 <MrsB> yeah, may be replaced with something else in future brian__
19:45:36 <brian__> np - one less to test
19:46:46 <MrsB> Anybody want to highlight major bugs right now?
19:46:58 <tony__> Partitioning in RAID: wasn't working in M5, I've delayed testing yet as requires manufacturer re-imaging disks
19:47:02 <tony__> see https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=15791
19:47:03 <tmb> one other thing to note about mga6 is that there is no proprietary fglrx driver available (and maybe never will be)....
19:47:04 <[mbot> Bug 15791: major, Normal, bugsquad, NEW , RAID 0 can't add 5th partition
19:48:05 <wilcal> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18207
19:48:06 <[mbot> Bug 18207: normal, Normal, mageia, NEW , Opening a .txt document shifts the desktop left and off the table
19:48:10 <wilcal> drives me crazy
19:48:19 <MrsB> #info <tmb> one other thing to note about mga6 is that there is no proprietary fglrx driver available (and maybe never will be)....
19:48:49 <Akien> One less proprietary package to put on our ISOs :p
19:49:24 <tmb> for the dmraid vs mdadm managing bios fakeraids I've sent one of my older systems to tv so he can help out :)
19:49:31 <MrsB> Has anything changed with raid tmb?
19:49:34 <MrsB> oops
19:50:11 <MrsB> ahh that's cool, fingers x'd then tony__
19:50:47 <tmb> there is another thing that debian has pointed out... we should probably stop providing prebuilt proprietary drivers as they are considered violating GPL
19:51:23 <tmb> meaning we can only provide dkms source packages...
19:51:51 <MrsB> that would actually solve some problems but we'd need better user notifications when dkms is building and need to install kernel-*-devel by default
19:51:58 <brian__> meaning we are asking people to compile they're own video drivers?
19:52:38 <tmb> brian__, sort of... drakx already knows to install dkms packages when needed so it's mostly automatic
19:52:49 <MrsB> the drivers are available as dkms packages brian__, so they build themselves against the installed kernel. We currently ship those AND prebuilt ones
19:54:02 <wilcal> what is the case for nvidia
19:54:45 <brian__> ok - thanks for the explanation MrsB
19:54:56 <tmb> wilcal, nVidia are the drivers that sparked the debate about violating GPL
19:55:28 <brian__> <and tmb>
19:55:30 <MrsB> tmb we'd need to fix the old dkms un-installation bug too
19:56:41 <tmb> MrsB, you mean for kernel-tmb/linus ? iirc core kernel should clean up nicely nowdays
19:56:56 * tmb need to verify that...
19:57:12 <MrsB> can't remember exactly now, it's an old one
19:58:12 <MrsB> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=10771
19:58:13 <[mbot> Bug 10771: normal, Normal, tmb, NEW , dkms builds are not removed when kernels are uninstalled which causes problems loading modules, kernel-rt kernel-tmb, kernel-linus, kernel-vserver
19:58:23 <MrsB> so yes
19:58:49 <tmb> ah, I need to add the same cleaning to those then...
19:59:13 <Akien> tmb: That means that for live ISOs we'd need to go either with the libre drivers, or build the dkms modules when booting the live environment?
19:59:55 <tmb> Akien, libre drivers only... compiling stuff during live boot is _way_ too painful
20:00:22 <wilcal> i see nothing wrong with libre drivers only on Live media
20:00:48 <MrsB> that may require us to instigate some sort of restricted drivers notification, ubuntu style
20:00:52 <brian__> build it an I'll try it on old nvidia equip.  IF it nukes I'll let you know tmb
20:01:33 <Akien> tmb: Ok. nouveau at least behaves pretty well nowadays so it might not be too critical not to have nonfree drivers on the lives.
20:01:40 <Akien> A bit more from networking though :/
20:01:52 <Akien> s/from/for/
20:02:18 <MrsB> Do you plan to do that for lives from this point on tmb?
20:03:27 <tmb> Akien, yeah, support for older broadcom in live mode will go downhill... every other driver will still work (as nonfree firmwares will still be available)
20:04:24 <Bequimao> hi all: Are there other pending themes?
20:04:26 <Akien> Ok, that's good.
20:04:37 <MrsB> Bequimao: ?
20:05:13 <Bequimao> Themes like btrfs, kdepim and so on.
20:06:09 <MrsB> not sure what you mean Bequimao, how are those related?
20:06:26 <tmb> I guess I have to investigate shipping gcc + dkms in "Live Core" media so people still can do offline installs can get a working net
20:07:09 <MrsB> could maybe offer it in finish-nstall
20:08:13 <MrsB> we are supposed to be stabilising now though rather than adding new stuff :P
20:08:40 <tmb> good part for nVidia users is that nVidia finally started shipping firmwares so kernel-4.6 supports hw all the way up to gtx 9xx
20:09:21 <wilcal> so nvidia support will move to the kernel and not have the special driver?
20:09:42 <tmb> and modesetting driver has improved so it can be used as better fallback than vesa
20:10:16 <MrsB> Anybody have any questions/comments?
20:10:21 <tmb> wilcal, nvidia is already supported bu nouveau kernel driver, but it's the newer hw that has lacked support
20:10:32 <wilcal> not from me
20:11:09 <MrsB> It is a tight schedule so we are relying heavily on devs stabilising things in the coming weeks
20:11:27 <MrsB> ready to move on?
20:11:40 <wilcal> yup
20:11:48 <MrsB> #topic Testing updates
20:11:53 <MrsB> Thanks everybody
20:12:06 <wilcal> vtun :-))
20:12:23 <MrsB> http://madb.mageia.org/tools/updates
20:12:26 <[mbot> [ Mageia App Db - Current Update candidates ]
20:12:32 <wilcal> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18135
20:12:34 <[mbot> Bug 18135: major, Normal, qa-bugs, NEW , vtun new DoS security issue, vtun-3.0.2-10.mga5.src.rpm
20:12:37 <MrsB> Was going to ask if there are any there that look scary
20:12:57 <wilcal> what'a we gonna do with vtun?
20:12:58 <MrsB> rindolf looked at it earlier too and couldn't see how to use it
20:13:07 <MrsB> We'll just check it updates cleanly
20:13:15 <wilcal> that makes it easy
20:13:23 <wilcal> list is pretty short
20:14:19 <MrsB> It seems to have grown this evening
20:14:44 <wilcal> what is uglify-js
20:15:39 <MrsB> can't remember, lets look
20:16:17 <Luigi12_work> we just updated it recently and there's a PoC for this update
20:16:19 <Ages> javascript beautifyer and compresion
20:16:21 <Luigi12_work> it's some nodejs library I think
20:16:35 <MrsB> so an easy one then
20:16:40 <MrsB> bugzilla has gone to sleep
20:16:40 <Luigi12_work> "beautifyer" LOL, nice choice of words
20:16:50 <brian__> oh good - I thought maybe a photo editor
20:16:54 <MrsB> care to run with that one Ages?
20:16:55 <wilcal> another java thing to make sure it installs and udates ok
20:17:04 <MrsB> not if we have a poc
20:17:04 <Luigi12_work> no
20:17:09 <Luigi12_work> javascript != java
20:17:14 <MrsB> yeah
20:17:19 <brian__> yep - web stuff
20:17:20 <Ages> uhh, I just have hear of it, I don't write javascript at all, sorry
20:17:58 <rindolf> I write some JaveScript.
20:18:03 <wilcal> btw very good support we got with:
20:18:04 <wilcal> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17535
20:18:06 <[mbot> Bug 17535: normal, Normal, qa-bugs, RESOLVED FIXED, lha new security issue CVE-2016-1925, lha-1.14i-26.mga5.src.rpm
20:18:09 <MrsB> Shouldn't need to if it has a PoC
20:19:00 <MrsB> javascript PoC given on the advisory
20:19:54 <MrsB> any others look scary?
20:21:30 <MrsB> We should have the list cleared by the weekend then ;)
20:21:41 <wilcal> what's coming?
20:21:44 <MrsB> #topic Luigi's Roundup
20:21:54 <MrsB> Luigi12_work: ping :)
20:21:54 <rindolf> wilcal: Passover?
20:22:09 <Luigi12_work> as you can see from the updates page, another java/openjdk update is coming.  Hopefully ns80 will help me get it to build again.
20:22:37 <Luigi12_work> the samba update for BadLock is also coming as soon as we can get it to build.  I need help on that.
20:23:06 <Luigi12_work> the networkmanager update is still pending due to possible regression pointed out by tmb and maybe other packages that should be updated with it
20:23:17 <rindolf> Luigi12_work: I can try helping with Samba.
20:23:22 <Luigi12_work> libtasn1 has a CVE.  I was hoping for a patch, but I might have to update it as we've done in the past.
20:23:22 <MrsB> #info java coming but not building at the moment. samba update for BadLock also coming as soon as it will build too.
20:23:39 <Luigi12_work> openssh CVE update pending, waiting for the maintainer to address it
20:23:53 <Luigi12_work> virtualbox 5.0.18 fixes a CVE, so tmb will have that soon hopefully :o)
20:24:10 <MrsB> #info networkmanager is pending due to regressions and possibly other packages in need of updating with it.
20:24:22 <tmb> Luigi12_work, it's already in testing, just needs the kmod :)
20:24:39 <Luigi12_work> tmb: that's what I thought, thanks
20:24:42 <MrsB> #info Coming soon: libtasn1, openssh & virtualbox
20:24:53 <Luigi12_work> that's all from me
20:25:06 <MrsB> Thanks David.
20:25:07 <wilcal> where are we on kernel updates
20:25:16 <tmb> and there will be kernels, dmidecode, wireless-regdb, ...
20:25:17 <MrsB> Any questions for David while he's here?
20:25:41 <wilcal> nope
20:25:45 <MrsB> #info also coming soon: kernels dmidecode, wireless-regdb
20:26:01 <MrsB> and you plan to drop isos this weekend?
20:26:52 <tmb> yep... kernels & co are already built... I just test them a bit before signing over to QA
20:26:59 <MrsB> that only leaves...
20:27:08 <MrsB> #topic Anything else?
20:27:13 <Luigi12_work> just an FYI from me
20:27:15 <MrsB> Is there anything else?
20:27:18 <MrsB> ok
20:27:39 <Luigi12_work> I will likely have to dramatically dial back my Mageia work around late summer this year
20:27:56 <MrsB> :\
20:27:59 <MrsB> how come?
20:28:00 <Luigi12_work> could really use someone to get spun up on tracking security issues
20:28:02 <Luigi12_work> changing jobs
20:28:12 <MrsB> ohhh, in a good way I hope
20:28:17 <Luigi12_work> I hope so too
20:28:27 <wilcal> another teaching job
20:28:31 <Luigi12_work> hopefully
20:28:36 <Luigi12_work> that's the goal
20:28:37 <MrsB> Have you found somebody to train up?
20:28:40 <Luigi12_work> nope
20:28:53 <wilcal> University level?
20:29:14 <Luigi12_work> no, either high school (hopefully) or professional (similar to what I do now)
20:29:29 <MrsB> #info Luigi12 will likely need to spend less time on Mageia later int he summer. Really need somebody to get involved for him to train before then.
20:29:55 <wilcal> Golden opportunity for someone
20:30:06 <MrsB> Put out an email for volunteers David, we can't 'manage' without sec updates
20:30:27 <Luigi12_work> yeah, it'd be nice if we could hire Oden to take over
20:30:45 <MrsB> I don't know we're in a position to hire people :\
20:30:50 <wilcal> Really  nice for a persons resume
20:30:57 <Luigi12_work> yeah, probably not directly
20:31:16 <Luigi12_work> maybe a partner company could hire him though
20:31:47 <Luigi12_work> definitely a job that requires some experience and expertise.  The time commitment varies.
20:31:52 <MrsB> I'd suggest an email to dev as the first step, find an apprentice
20:32:09 <MrsB> should be more than one in the sec team anyway
20:32:16 <Luigi12_work> ideally
20:32:49 <wilcal> someone in school i loved hiring someone right out of school did it a lot
20:33:23 <MrsB> Is there anything else else?
20:33:34 <rindolf> wilcal: what?
20:33:34 <wilcal> not from me
20:33:49 <wilcal> enginners and tech sales people
20:33:56 <wilcal> right out of school
20:34:04 <MrsB> anybody?
20:34:26 <MrsB> Thanks for coming then everybody, be ready for ISOs, they won't be far away now :)
20:34:33 <MrsB> T - 5
20:34:36 <MrsB> 4
20:34:37 <wilcal> yippeeeee!!!!
20:34:37 <MrsB> 3
20:34:39 <MrsB> 2
20:34:41 <MrsB> 1
20:34:43 <MrsB> #endmeeting