20:03:46 <MrsB> #startmeeting
20:03:46 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Thu Nov 27 20:03:46 2014 UTC.  The chair is MrsB. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:03:46 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:03:46 <DavidWHodgins> Him too.
20:03:55 <MrsB> Welcome everybody to another one
20:04:04 <MrsB> #chair DavidWHodgins
20:04:04 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: DavidWHodgins MrsB
20:04:06 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Who's new? If you are new then please come and say hello
20:04:13 <MrsB> thanks
20:04:19 <MrsB> Is there anybody new here today?
20:04:34 <MrsB> i can't see any new nicks
20:04:42 <DavidWHodgins> Anyone here who has not been to a qa team irc meeting before?
20:05:16 <MrsB> nope.
20:05:36 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Mentoring update - how is it going?
20:05:59 <MrsB> #info If you are new or just joining then please come along to the next meeting and meet the rest of the team
20:06:19 <MrsB> How is the mentoring going then?
20:06:26 <lewyssmith> I have been away, & my lot look after themselves very well.
20:06:36 <MrsB> my lot :)
20:06:46 <MrsB> where did oyu go to lewis?
20:06:49 <DavidWHodgins> hviaene: and I had one email exchange. Still no response from remiservices.
20:07:18 <MrsB> Remyservices (another David) is probably busy, he's not had much time lately
20:07:34 <lewyssmith> MrsB: I would like to say "Gay Paris", but the outer suburbs are not quite the same thing.
20:08:06 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
20:08:08 <MrsB> Oh very nice, some downtime?
20:08:17 <lewyssmith> ?
20:08:23 <MrsB> holiday
20:08:42 <lewyssmith> Not really; different sort of employment of time.
20:09:05 <MrsB> welcome back then anyway :)
20:09:19 <wilcal> Made it
20:09:19 <MrsB> NyB is probably eating turkey
20:09:24 <MrsB> morning wilcal
20:09:26 <DavidWHodgins> Anyone else need a mentor?
20:09:28 <wilcal> Afternoon
20:09:33 <MrsB> surprised you're not eating turkey too!
20:09:39 <wilcal> Not yet
20:09:46 <wilcal> later today
20:09:56 <lewyssmith> NyB is in Athens...
20:10:13 <MrsB> #info Anybody who is in need of a mentor to get started testing updates please let us know
20:10:39 <MrsB> I though he was greek in south america? memory fail
20:10:54 <lewyssmith> Perhaps you are right.
20:11:16 <MrsB> I've written almost 30,000 words in 3 weeks so probably not :D
20:11:35 <wilcal> You get paid by the word?
20:11:41 <dvg_i> gr is Greece
20:11:42 <hviaene> I had some support from pepole on line this week, tx
20:11:43 <MrsB> no, I wish
20:11:56 <lewyssmith> 19C authors were often paid by quantity.
20:12:08 <MrsB> ahh yes, indeed, dvg thanks
20:12:11 <hviaene> Helpfull people, here
20:12:28 <MrsB> you've been doing well hviaene
20:12:34 <MrsB> olivier_cc too
20:13:02 <olivier_cc> wanted to burry MGA3 in a nice coffin ;)
20:13:12 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Mageia 3 EOL - rest in peace
20:13:18 <MrsB> thanks
20:13:30 <wilcal> It went quietly
20:13:43 <dvg_i> lol
20:13:44 <MrsB> Well doen everybody who made it happen. It was a bit of a rush at the last minute and we got through it
20:14:11 <wilcal> As I mentioned on Monday I did full installs and updates from the CI's and all went well
20:14:35 <MrsB> The medias have now been closed and updates_testing is cleaned so it's now officially dead.
20:14:52 <wilcal> Yep, same here on my local repo for M3
20:15:02 <MrsB> good on ya wilcal. SOrry I missed that, when I looked there was no email
20:15:31 <wilcal> good closure on M3
20:16:01 <MrsB> yeah and a great performance from the QA team too
20:16:29 <hviaene> How much lifetime has M4 now left?
20:16:30 <MrsB> Does anybody have any questions or any comments?
20:16:45 <MrsB> ummm
20:16:47 <DavidWHodgins> As reported in bug 14269. I had some problems upgrading a test release from m3 to m4.
20:16:48 <[mbot> Bug https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14269 normal, Normal, bugsquad, NEW , Missing lib64gcr / lib64gcr-ui dependency, gnome-shell-3.14.0-5.mga5.src.rpm
20:17:13 <MrsB> https://releases.mageia.org/api/b/x86_64
20:17:44 <MrsB> so mga4 should last until next August
20:18:18 <olivier_cc> There is a new release every year then ?
20:18:19 <wilcal> M4's pretty solid right now
20:18:29 <hviaene> Tx, brrr that's close
20:19:15 <MrsB> we aim for 9 months olivier_cc but it's been just over usually, supported for 18months
20:19:42 <DavidWHodgins> olivier_cc: We aim for every nine months, but it seems like once a yaar is more realistic.
20:20:00 <wilcal> 9 month cycle guarantes at least one release per year
20:20:01 <olivier_cc> that's a real challenge !
20:20:46 <MrsB> it's easier with more people, so what you're doing is really important
20:21:08 <Akien> I'm starting to think that we should support releases during two real release cycles, and not limit it to 18 months
20:21:16 <Akien> i.e. support Mageia 4 until Mageia 6 is released
20:21:18 <MrsB> I disagree
20:21:38 <lewyssmith> I agree with Akien .
20:21:47 <MrsB> we don't have the numbers to support 2 live releases and iso test a third during the latter stages
20:22:02 <Akien> It felt wrong to write in the mga3 EOL blog post: if you are waiting for mga5, upgrade now to mga4 so that you can upgrade to mga5 in a couple of months
20:22:05 <hviaene> Can I introduce a "users point of view"???
20:22:10 <DavidWHodgins> We have to stop updating the prior +1 release, so we have time to properly test the new iso images.
20:22:36 <lewyssmith> hviaene: Of course.
20:22:51 <DavidWHodgins> hviaene: Please do.
20:23:05 <lewyssmith> Are we not polite?!
20:23:33 <hviaene> I am "converting" some people to M4 (mainly from Win XP, one from Mandriva2011)
20:23:35 <DavidWHodgins> lewyssmith: Not always. ☺
20:24:18 <hviaene> If I now have to consider to turn these over every year????
20:24:30 <MrsB> think of it as a service pack
20:24:51 <MrsB> it's not necessary to reinstall every time
20:24:51 <DavidWHodgins> Every year and a half, in general.
20:25:04 <hviaene> Nono, a service pack installs itself practically
20:25:18 <MrsB> the upgrades should be the same really
20:25:29 <hviaene> but a new release that's totally different
20:25:36 <MrsB> if we do our job well they will be anyway :\
20:25:41 <hviaene> I tend to do clean installs
20:25:45 <Akien> DavidWHodgins: More than every year and a half.
20:25:49 <DavidWHodgins> We always test upgrading, in additioing to clean installs.
20:26:04 <Akien> It's been 18 months since the mga3 release, so now people *must* upgrade to mga4 if they want security updates
20:26:21 <hviaene> Do you know Bit twister??
20:26:21 <Akien> And then either they wait 9 months for mga4 EOL, or upgrade to mga5 in two months
20:26:38 <Akien> So either way our "one upgrade every 18 months" does not work
20:26:50 <DavidWHodgins> My current main system started out as a Mageia 2 install, since upgraded to m3, then m4.
20:27:23 <MrsB> most distributions release every 6 months. Some manage an LTS release which is supported for 5 years. We're not at that stage yet, with enough contributors in the right areas, but it's something I think everybody would *like* to do.
20:27:24 <Akien> Yes, that's our 9 months release cycle (more 11-12 months actually, but hey :-p )
20:28:05 <MrsB> Our ambitions are only limited by our own actions
20:28:17 <DavidWHodgins> You should not try to update two release cylcles at one. One at a time.
20:28:44 <Akien> But then we should support our releases 12 months or so
20:29:15 <Akien> I find it doesn't really make sense that we fight so much to update mga3, and then we drop mga3 users in the middle of nowhere
20:29:34 <hviaene> Bravo!!!!
20:29:55 <DavidWHodgins> Akien: When we have a new release ready for testing, we don't have enough people to support 2 stable releases.
20:29:57 <Akien> IMO we should either support each release for 2 release cycles (but then it's really hard), or one for one release cycle + a couple of months to give users some time for the upgrade
20:30:12 <MrsB> it's dreaming at the minute Akien
20:30:34 <Akien> If the upgrade to n+1 is a must, then we don't have to delay it for so look and spend so much time on release n
20:30:39 <MrsB> it's like saying we should have a full java stack and openstack etc
20:30:50 <MrsB> when we have the people to do it, we can do it
20:30:52 <Akien> Nope
20:30:57 <Akien> I made another proposal
20:30:59 <Akien> To do less
20:31:22 <MrsB> where?
20:31:26 <marja> hi all
20:31:31 <Akien> or one for one release cycle + a couple of months to give users some time for the upgrade
20:31:33 <MrsB> morning marja
20:31:40 <olivier_cc> hi marja
20:31:46 <DavidWHodgins> My understanding is that most of the java stack is going to be dropped from cauldron.
20:31:48 <Akien> Basically we would support mga5 until mga6 is out + a couple of months
20:32:05 <Akien> (I don't mean to change anything for mga4, people count of us supporting it until August)
20:32:22 <MrsB> Akien: what you're suggesting is to keep 2 live release whilst testing a 3rd and then support 3 live releases for 2 extra months
20:32:28 <Akien> No
20:32:54 <Akien> Only support mga5 while we prepare mga6
20:33:00 <MrsB> i see
20:33:11 <Akien> Then mga6 is out, mga5 EOLs after two months
20:33:33 * marja likes that idea
20:33:36 <MrsB> so reduce support time to next release date plus 2 months?
20:33:40 <Akien> Yep
20:33:55 <Akien> I think this makes more sense than having an EOL in the middle of a release cycle
20:33:56 <DavidWHodgins> That should be discussed on the mailing list, so people not here can partiipate in the disscussion too.
20:33:59 <MrsB> reducing support down to around 11 months to a year
20:34:16 <Akien> Yes, up to 14 months since currently we're having long release cycles :-)
20:34:40 <hviaene> IMHO release cycles should be longer
20:34:44 <MrsB> well it's an idea. Suggest it on council ML
20:34:45 <lewyssmith> It seems unnecessary to try & release more often than once a year.
20:34:47 <DavidWHodgins> Akien: The delay this time was due to bugs in rpm.
20:34:58 <hviaene> As a user a new versio is always a disruption
20:35:25 <MrsB> ideally yes hviaene, but until we have enough contributors to do so it would fail
20:35:26 <Akien> DavidWHodgins: Yes I know, but we also had a relatively long delay for mga4. The summer vacation does fit well in a 9 month release schedule :-)
20:35:58 <DavidWHodgins> Nor does the Christmas vacation time.
20:36:10 <Akien> IMO if we stop the support of the N-1 release early, it gives us more time to make sure the upgrade from N to N+1 will be really smooth
20:36:20 <lewyssmith> DavidWHodgins: Much shorter.
20:36:29 <DavidWHodgins> True
20:36:33 <Akien> And then we can really encourage people to upgrade every 9 months
20:36:39 <wilcal> The European Chistmas and summer Holidays do not bode well for a 9-month cycle time
20:36:48 <wilcal> IMO
20:36:51 <Akien> wilcal: You have a point :-)
20:37:00 <MrsB> I'd liek to see a proper LTS release, supported for 3 or 5 years one day. Akiens idea of reducing the support time for regular releases would make that more practical but we'd still need more help in the security team (aka luigi12)
20:37:17 <wilcal> Having worked for a European company in Europe
20:37:37 <Akien> Yep, a 3 year LTS release would be great
20:37:38 <olivier_cc> MrsB: I agree
20:37:39 <DavidWHodgins> MrsB: We need more people for that, both on the packagers team, and qa.
20:37:44 <MrsB> yep
20:37:53 <Akien> With backports :-D
20:38:13 <Akien> But we're going in the right direction, at least in the QA team
20:38:23 <DavidWHodgins> True
20:38:32 <Akien> Maybe mga6 will be LTS :-)
20:38:38 <MrsB> Let's move on then guys
20:38:51 <MrsB> council ML is the place for this really
20:38:55 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Testing updates - Anything scary?
20:39:02 <Akien> Yep, I'll mail council
20:39:07 <MrsB> Is there anything scary?
20:39:25 <wilcal> I see there's a virtualbox update any chance to mate that with another kernel update
20:39:36 <wilcal> best they be done together
20:39:37 <MrsB> :\
20:39:48 <MrsB> It's fine without
20:39:50 <DavidWHodgins> The video driver requires that hardware.
20:40:09 <tmb> wilcal, nope, the vbox will go on its own this time
20:40:17 <wilcal> thanks tmb
20:40:29 <wilcal> makes it easy
20:40:48 <MrsB> the vbox kernel module is either dkms-* which will build for any kernel version as long as the kernel-*-devel is installed or the vbox-kernel-* modules which are prebuilt for the current kernel
20:41:16 <DavidWHodgins> Anyone have geode vidiao cards?
20:41:21 <tmb> wilcal, the reason is so QA will have same vbox in mga4 as mga5 beta2+ to make easier testing in vbox :)
20:41:22 <wilcal> not me
20:41:37 <wilcal> ok
20:41:45 <lewyssmith> I think David said nobody has.
20:41:57 <dvg_i> used o, but the machine died
20:42:01 <MrsB> never even heard of geode hw. I think last meeting we agreed to just check it installs ok
20:42:03 <wilcal> clean install is all that needs then
20:42:13 <wilcal> super easy test
20:42:16 <DavidWHodgins> I've never even heard of geode video cards before.
20:42:41 <MrsB> anybody with a mga4 mail server?
20:42:49 <wilcal> what is a teeworld server?
20:43:12 <MrsB> a game i think wilcal
20:43:28 <wilcal> I've never tinkered with a mail server
20:43:43 <wilcal> my isp blocks port 20/21
20:43:52 <wilcal> outgoing anyway
20:43:59 * tmb have postfix running
20:44:04 <lewyssmith> wilcal: "What is?" is the standard question for many updates.
20:44:10 <MrsB> any chance you could check amavisd tmb?
20:44:29 <MrsB> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=14597
20:44:30 <[mbot> Bug 14597: normal, Normal, qa-bugs, ASSIGNED , amavisd-new upgrade from 2.8.2-rc1 to 2.9.1, amavisd-new-2.9.1-1.mga4.src.rpm
20:44:56 <DavidWHodgins> wilcal: Have a good dinner!
20:45:18 <wilcal> Thanks David will do
20:45:36 <wilcal> 30C outside today does not feel like a Thanksgivin Day
20:45:41 <hviaene> That's te bug were I backed off
20:45:46 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
20:46:14 <DavidWHodgins> Canadians had thanksgiving about a month ago.
20:46:14 <tmb> MrsB, why not...
20:46:16 <hviaene> Looked at the bacula stuff, decided to leave it to someone else
20:46:41 <MrsB> teeworlds is a multiplayer game server IINM, just check it starts/stops and the client can connect to it
20:46:48 <MrsB> thanks tmb :)
20:47:02 <MrsB> it'll likely be better tested if you test it
20:47:03 <lewyssmith> hviaene: It is greyed, so can be ignored by us at present.
20:47:50 <hviaene> Tx for that Lewis
20:48:11 <MrsB> teeworlds isn't greyed
20:48:24 <lewyssmith> Bacula.
20:48:35 <MrsB> ohhhh that one, your nemesis
20:48:58 <hviaene> Wagner in backgound?
20:49:09 <lewyssmith> I would not mind if it made me grey; better than white.
20:49:35 <lewyssmith> hviaene: If only...
20:49:41 <MrsB> Is there anything else scary there?
20:49:54 <wilcal> Everybody should try their favorite libreoffice function there
20:49:55 <DavidWHodgins> Got a hair cut yesterday.. All of the triminngs were white. ;-)
20:50:25 <DavidWHodgins> #topic  Luigi's roundup (possibly)
20:50:32 <MrsB> thanks Dave
20:50:45 <DavidWHodgins> Luigi12: ping?
20:50:58 <MrsB> #info Luigi12 is easting turkey and posted to the ML instead
20:51:01 <lewyssmith> He said he would be elsewhere.
20:51:21 <lewyssmith> with his "best friend".
20:51:33 <diogenese> Good for him.
20:51:34 <lewyssmith> Lucky fellow.
20:51:43 <MrsB> #info "overall we're not in too bad of shape right now" - Luigi12
20:51:45 <DavidWHodgins> Ok. May as well move on then.
20:51:47 <wilcal> I read is posting
20:51:48 <dvg_i> poor turkey
20:51:51 <MrsB> yep
20:51:55 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Anything else?
20:52:00 <MrsB> Is there anything else?
20:52:06 <wilcal> Not from me
20:52:12 <lewyssmith> Not here.
20:52:22 <wilcal> should be an easy week till next time without M3
20:52:36 <DavidWHodgins> My cat (Malone) just woke up, and appears to want more food.
20:52:47 <MrsB> let's try and clear the ones we have though please so we're not behind again after beta 2 is done
20:52:50 <olivier_cc> i wanted to know something about tainted packages
20:52:55 <MrsB> sure
20:52:56 <lewyssmith> wilcal: There are loads of updates.
20:53:13 <wilcal> ya lots there but without M3 testing it makes it easier
20:53:16 <olivier_cc> if there are problems on tainted packages, do we file bug reports ?
20:53:35 <lewyssmith> Bien souvenu!
20:53:39 <DavidWHodgins> olivier_cc: Yes, please do so.
20:54:01 <MrsB> it depends. If it's a regression then it should be mentioned in the bug report and fixed before th eupdate is released.
20:54:15 <wilcal> tainted end up being most important in the multimedia stuff
20:54:26 <wilcal> OpenShot would'nt work without it
20:54:38 <MrsB> minor bugs we find during testing can also be mentioned and often packagers will fix those too while they are at it
20:54:52 <olivier_cc> mesa tainted breaks my display and I didn't know if I should report it
20:54:55 <MrsB> and major bug
20:54:58 <DavidWHodgins> If it's not a regession, the but report should still be filed, but it won't block the update.
20:55:20 <DavidWHodgins> s /but/bug/
20:55:34 <lewyssmith> olivier_cc: Dis it work before the update?
20:55:37 <lewyssmith> did
20:55:43 <olivier_cc> never did
20:55:56 <MrsB> Please do report it olivier_cc
20:55:59 <lewyssmith> So no regression, but a valid bug.
20:56:07 <olivier_cc> ok will do
20:56:18 <MrsB> Is there anything else else?
20:56:32 <DavidWHodgins> Time for the countdown?
20:56:47 <wilcal> Time to eat Turkey for some :-))
20:57:02 <MrsB> Happy thanksgiving to all celebrating it. Thanks for coming everybody!
20:57:10 <MrsB> T - 5
20:57:12 <MrsB> 4
20:57:15 <MrsB> 3
20:57:16 <MrsB> 2
20:57:16 <wilcal> bye all
20:57:17 <MrsB> 1
20:57:20 <MrsB> #endmeeting