20:03:24 <DavidWHodgins> #startmeeting
20:03:24 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Thu Jan  2 20:03:24 2014 UTC.  The chair is DavidWHodgins. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:03:24 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:03:34 <DavidWHodgins> #chair MrsB
20:03:34 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: DavidWHodgins MrsB
20:03:59 <DavidWHodgins> #topic
20:04:01 <DavidWHodgins> Who's new? If you've joined us over christmas and new year then come
20:04:02 <DavidWHodgins> along and say hi!
20:04:21 <DavidWHodgins> So, anyone here who has not participated on a qa irc meeting before?
20:04:58 <DavidWHodgins> #topic 4RC - How's it looking?
20:05:14 <wilcal> Some tough issues on RC right now
20:05:15 <DavidWHodgins> I haven't had time to test the RC iso images yet. How are they looking so far?
20:05:31 <Stormi> o/ QA
20:05:39 <wilcal> I have four major show stoppers I've been involved with
20:05:44 <lewyssmith> I had success with 64-bit KDE Live DVD
20:06:04 <wilcal> The Live-CD's install and mostly work
20:06:07 <Kernewes> wilcal: that's a bit greedy
20:06:53 <DavidWHodgins> Make sure bug reports are filed, and for any show stoppers, bug 11704 is added as a bug that is blocked.
20:06:54 <[mbot> Bug https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11704 normal, release_blocker, bugsquad, NEW , [Tracker] Mageia 4 Release Critical
20:07:13 <lewyssmith> I need to re-try 32-bit Classic, but it has already been updated. I cannot keep up.
20:07:59 <wilcal> My latest isos are dated the 29th
20:09:48 <DavidWHodgins> Also, please update http://bn.parinux.org/p/mageia4rc
20:09:49 <[mbot> [ Etherpad Lite ]
20:09:59 <lewyssmith> We all do, I think
20:10:54 <wilcal> I use that a lot
20:11:25 <lewyssmith> It is good when you find a comment already noted by a another; it is for real
20:11:55 <wilcal> I get uncomfortable when I'm the only one reporting a bug
20:12:18 <lewyssmith> Me too, which is why I am slow to raise a me-only bug
20:12:22 <wilcal> It helps if you confirm what someone else reports
20:12:46 <Kernewes> the classic ones were the problem last time as well, weren't they?
20:12:57 <wilcal> You have to defend a brand new bug sometimes
20:13:06 <Kernewes> ooh, I just remembered something I was going to tell the doc team
20:13:06 <wilcal> I went through this with:
20:13:18 <Kernewes> a magazine article about configuring your system
20:13:28 <DavidWHodgins> If in doubt, post a message to the mailing list, or here on irc, describing how to see the bug, and ask for others to confirm.
20:13:33 <wilcal> I went through this with:
20:13:34 <wilcal> Remote CUPS server not working on (M4RC) Cauldron
20:13:36 <wilcal> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12137
20:13:37 <[mbot> Bug 12137: normal, Normal, bugsquad, NEW , Remote CUPS server not working on (M4RC) Cauldron
20:14:02 <wilcal> I spent almost a whole day making sure it was really what I was seeing
20:14:11 <Kernewes> that praised Mageia for having MCC instructions in the live DVD
20:15:03 <lewyssmith> wilcal: I have my own Gnome authorisation failures, tried ad nauseam
20:15:25 <DavidWHodgins> The RC is scheduled for release in 4 days, so we need to find the obvious bugs, and get them fixed before then.
20:15:33 <Kernewes> it is embarrassing reporting a bug and it turns out to be something you did
20:15:34 <lewyssmith> Too short!
20:15:37 <wilcal> Ya Gnome still has some major issues
20:15:51 <wilcal> How do I add a bug number to the Depends on: section of
20:15:53 <wilcal> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11704
20:15:54 <[mbot> Bug 11704: normal, release_blocker, bugsquad, NEW , [Tracker] Mageia 4 Release Critical
20:16:08 <lewyssmith> Kernewes: I did that recently with LibreOffice!
20:16:35 <Kernewes> lewyssmith: I've done it lots of time
20:16:37 <Kernewes> times
20:16:47 <lewyssmith> I guessed
20:16:50 <DavidWHodgins> After adding a new bug, edit the blocks, and add 11704 to the list.
20:17:24 <wilcal> 12140 & 12174 are hard stop release blockers
20:18:06 <MrsB> hi guys, very sorry about that
20:18:11 <wilcal> Hi MrsB
20:18:22 <lewyssmith> Too late, we've done.
20:18:31 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
20:18:39 <MrsB> I don' believe you :P
20:18:46 <lewyssmith> Ask Dave.
20:18:57 <DavidWHodgins> Still on the topic of RC
20:19:27 <DavidWHodgins> I doubt we'll be ready in 4 days.
20:19:33 <MrsB> I've had a few issues with it today, both live and classic :\
20:19:52 <DavidWHodgins> Think we should ask for a blog post, delaying RC, now?
20:19:53 <lewyssmith> Any feeling of going backwards?
20:20:07 <MrsB> gnome doesn't seem to boot and classic has some basic issues, memtest, usb loading slowly etc
20:20:25 <MrsB> yes lewis very much so, it's a bit disappointing tbh
20:20:26 <wilcal> I don't think we're going backwards because the test installs I have are working well
20:20:38 <wilcal> it's the install process that's a problem
20:21:27 <MrsB> Let's see what happens in the next day or so Dave. I think if we reach the weekend without progress though then we should do
20:22:13 <wilcal> Are new Classic Installer ISO's expected over the weekend?
20:22:13 <DavidWHodgins> I'll be concentrating on testing updates for Mageia 3 today. Won't be testing iso images until tomorrow, at the earliest.
20:22:22 <DavidWHodgins> ennael: ping
20:22:34 <MrsB> Yep that's good, we've grown quite a list in the space of a week
20:22:34 <wilcal> I was poke'n at one of the updates today
20:22:42 <lewyssmith> wilcal: Were they not re-issued very quickly recently?
20:22:56 <wilcal> I was work'n on openjpeg
20:23:03 <DavidWHodgins> lewyssmith: 3 days ago. That's a long time in cauldron. :-)
20:23:22 <lewyssmith> The time for me to download, make a DVD etc
20:23:43 <lewyssmith> among other life
20:24:57 <MrsB> #info Things seem to be going backwards with the isos, we need some fixes for gnome especially and problems with boot hanging at "Checking for new hardware", memtest86+ crashing, kernel/stage1 loading very slowly from usb, drop down menus in installer needing 3 clicks to name a few.
20:25:20 <DavidWHodgins> I think everyone knows what needs to be done. ennael doesn't seem to be around. Shall we move on to the next topic?
20:25:45 <MrsB> yep, nobody is here to moan at :D
20:25:51 <wilcal> Before we move on MrsB next set of ISO's is
20:26:09 <MrsB> i don't know when they'll be
20:26:18 <wilcal> ok
20:26:18 <MrsB> keep an eye on qa-discuss for the announcement
20:26:28 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Updates, updates, updates.. suddenly there's tons of them :-(
20:26:46 <MrsB> lots and lots and lots and lots and..
20:26:52 <DavidWHodgins> 26 of them
20:27:21 <MrsB> #info Dave is going to concentrate on updates for the time being
20:27:43 <DavidWHodgins> I've added the advisories to svn for all of the security updates, except qt4 (waiting for qt5 to be updated too).
20:28:03 <MrsB> I think i saw something about doing it separately
20:28:26 <wilcal> M4 kinda on hold for me till next ISO's
20:28:47 <MrsB> do you want to help out then too please wilcal
20:29:01 <DavidWHodgins> Ah. Ok. Luigi12 replied to my comment on the bug report. I'll add the advisory for that one, right after the meeting.
20:29:41 <lewyssmith> I have affairs of a dying neighbour limiting me at present, so for me it is ISOs only
20:29:46 <wilcal> Yes, I worked on the openjpeg thing and put my results in there
20:29:57 <wilcal> There's others there I can contribute to
20:30:00 <DavidWHodgins> Also x2goserver looks like it may need more work, before it can be tested.
20:30:11 <MrsB> that's ok lewis, sorry to hear that. It'll be good to divide our resources until there are new isos anyway
20:30:44 <MrsB> when new isos land all please get them tested though
20:31:37 <MrsB> anything else to add here?
20:31:47 <MrsB> apart from plug away and do what we can
20:32:03 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Luigi's Roundup
20:32:11 <Kernewes> I'll see if I can manage any of the updates
20:32:15 <MrsB> Luigi said earlier he may not be available
20:32:20 <DavidWHodgins> ping Luigi12_lappy
20:33:22 <MrsB> Kernewes: that would be helpful, thankyou
20:33:30 <MrsB> looks like he's not going to make it for the roundup. I've asked him to please email the roundup instead.
20:33:34 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Anything else?
20:33:39 <MrsB> As a reminder, the list of current updates is here http://mageia.madb.org/tools/updates
20:33:45 <[mbot> [ Mageia App Db - Current Update candidates ]
20:33:47 <DavidWHodgins> Guess this will be a short meeting then. :-)
20:33:56 <MrsB> Especially for some of us :\
20:34:06 <MrsB> sorryabout being late
20:34:20 <wilcal> Lets hope for a better RC by next meeting
20:34:31 <MrsB> let's hope it's been released by then
20:34:42 <lewyssmith> Not might be better
20:34:42 <DavidWHodgins> Don't worry about being late MrsB
20:34:53 <Kernewes> Mageia 3 was the same though
20:34:58 <Kernewes> and it turned out OK
20:35:09 <lewyssmith> We should learn
20:35:18 <lewyssmith> i.e. from experience
20:35:24 <wilcal> Always nice for me to move back over to ole reliable M3
20:35:35 <wilcal> :-))
20:35:45 <MrsB> it wears us all down though if it's a mad rush at the end. It's been a rough ride so far with so many rebuilds of betas.
20:35:49 <DavidWHodgins> Mageia 3 installer problems didn't even start to get worked on, until after the RC, which is why I was against the network interface renaming, for Mageia 4.
20:36:10 <wilcal> Ya the network thingy was tough
20:36:34 <MrsB> I think what we're seeing now are late additions to gnome, gtk3 installer and polkit
20:36:48 <DavidWHodgins> It's gone better than I expected though. I think Coling felt guilty. :-)
20:36:48 <wilcal> I should take my M4 laptop for a ride to some WiFi hotspots
20:37:04 <Kernewes> thought there weren't supposed to be any late additions
20:37:13 <DavidWHodgins> Gnome still has problems with networkmanager stopping drakxnet from working.
20:37:13 <lewyssmith> But why 'late'?
20:37:32 <wilcal> In general about how many developers working on M4?
20:37:36 <DavidWHodgins> It wasn't a late addition. It started early, but had not been an approved feature.
20:38:07 <Kernewes> DavidWHodgins: meaning?
20:38:09 <DavidWHodgins> wilcal: Pretty well all of them are working on cauldron.
20:38:10 <MrsB> well the idea is to make the major changes early in alphas so when we get to this stage we can concentrate on things like artwork integration, making sure all the apps work and upgrades are ok. At the moment we're struggling to boot.
20:38:54 <lewyssmith> I get the impression that rather than doing planned changes before alpha, they only *start* being done then
20:39:01 <Kernewes> I thought the earlier freeze was supposed to prevent that happening again
20:39:11 <DavidWHodgins> Kernewes: When the council meeting was held to decide witch features to include in Mageia 4, the network renaming was not approved. Colin went ahead and implemented it anyway.
20:39:33 <wilcal> and he did it wrong
20:39:48 <DavidWHodgins> The problems we are currently seeing, don't seem to be caused by the network renaming though.
20:39:58 <lewyssmith> The impression that the whole release cycle is a cascade of changes
20:40:03 <Kernewes> naughty Colin :(
20:40:21 <DavidWHodgins> He knows I was not happy with it. :-)
20:40:33 <Kernewes> lewyssmith: I suppose some of the big changes have to be done in stages though
20:40:51 <MrsB> I think we're learning as we go along that major changes have to be completed early in the cycle
20:40:52 <diogenese> It did fix a problem I was having with interface names flip-flopping each boot.
20:41:06 <lewyssmith> Kernewes: But not during the release testing, surely?
20:41:15 <wilcal> Once installed KDE does well for me
20:41:32 <DavidWHodgins> To his credit, he did fix the installer, iirc, in beta 2.
20:41:45 <Kernewes> lewyssmith: the testing goes on through the whole release cycle
20:41:56 <MrsB> yes it's not fair to single out colin.
20:42:03 <DavidWHodgins> The installer changes only get tested, normally, when the iso images are built.
20:42:12 <DavidWHodgins> True. Gnome has not been stable yet.
20:42:14 <lewyssmith> DavidWHodgins: Which installer, whcih problem?
20:42:36 <wilcal> The Classic Installer is not good right now
20:42:48 <lewyssmith> But it was...
20:42:49 <DavidWHodgins> The classical installer, with different network interface names being used during/after install.
20:42:55 <wilcal> Live-CD/DVD KDE is quite good
20:43:14 <lewyssmith> Except live gnome not flying
20:43:38 <wilcal> Gnome's been really difficult in M4
20:43:39 <lewyssmith> KDE has always been more reliable here
20:43:43 <MrsB> I think part of the problem we have is devs/packagers using cauldron but not installing the isos, so some bugs are show themselves during prerelease testing and it's a rush then and causes headaches for everybody.
20:44:21 <lewyssmith> wilcal: Gnome was OK at the end of Beta
20:44:36 <lewyssmith> The very end
20:44:48 <wilcal> That is correct then bad things happened
20:45:20 <lewyssmith> We found them
20:45:22 <DavidWHodgins> The change to use gtk3 in the drakx tools was done far too late.
20:45:39 <MrsB> yes
20:45:40 <DavidWHodgins> That has caused a lot of the recent problems.
20:45:41 <lewyssmith> Should have been done before alpha.
20:46:02 <Kernewes> MrsB: can you do anything about that?
20:46:23 <lewyssmith> We are testing moving targets in quantity.
20:46:26 <wilcal> I am bringing my KDE M4 Laptop to FOSDEM and I'd show it right now
20:46:36 <MrsB> I can raise it at the post-mortem and we can hopefully learn from it
20:46:44 <lewyssmith> wilcal: Playing safe!
20:47:05 <DavidWHodgins> Too late for Mageia 4, but for Magiea 5, the council will have to be more strict, in only allowing approved features, and ensuring they are ready by at least, the first beta.
20:47:28 <Kernewes> sounds like the post mortem will be similar to last time :9
20:47:40 <Kernewes> oops
20:47:40 <Kernewes> :(
20:47:46 <lewyssmith> wilcal: Beware Panorama & DragonPlayer
20:47:54 <MrsB> it's nothing that we don't already know and haven't already said, but devs are volunteers too and human nature plays a part, doing things at the last moment
20:48:01 <wilcal> I only use apps I am really really comfortable with
20:48:04 <DavidWHodgins> True
20:48:08 <Kernewes> lewyssmith: bit of a dragon is it?
20:48:21 <lewyssmith> Won't play my DVDs
20:48:33 <wilcal> FWIW I've already live webcasted from my M4 Laptop through my uStream account looks good
20:48:34 <MrsB> We should maybe clamp down of late dev work in the same way as late package submission though
20:48:45 <DavidWHodgins> wilcal: One of the best parts of being on the qa team, is that you test updates for packages you've never heard of, and then find them to be useful.
20:48:57 <wilcal> u betcha
20:49:05 <Kernewes> MrsB: well I know it's difficult, but if they genuinely want to help, surely they have to play by the rules so far as they're able
20:49:19 <wilcal> I kinda like the clam antivirus thingy
20:49:30 <MrsB> yes, they know that too Kernewes. We just need to enact it better
20:49:32 <wilcal> clamav
20:49:38 <Kernewes> +1
20:50:21 <Kernewes> wilcal: the downside of testing is that you test a game you don't like and then you have to test it every time :(
20:50:59 <MrsB> or a server application
20:51:11 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
20:51:16 <lewyssmith> Harder...
20:51:28 <MrsB> is there anything proper else or shall we wrap up?
20:51:36 * Kernewes runs away from server stuff
20:51:40 <wilcal> I'm done
20:51:41 <DavidWHodgins> Nothing else here.
20:51:56 <wilcal> I run Apache and ProFTP on this M3 box
20:51:57 <MrsB> you shouldn't run away from it, alot of it is much easier than it sounds
20:52:02 <lewyssmith> Wrap up. It's cold here.
20:52:06 <wilcal> They're pretty easy
20:52:26 <MrsB> ok then, thankyou all for coming. Happy new year!
20:52:31 <MrsB> t-5
20:52:35 <lewyssmith> Nos da.
20:52:35 <MrsB> 4
20:52:37 <MrsB> 3
20:52:38 <Kernewes> MrsB: thank you, and yo
20:52:38 <Kernewes> yo
20:52:39 <MrsB> 2
20:52:40 <Kernewes> you
20:52:42 <MrsB> 1
20:52:44 <Kernewes> got there in the end
20:52:52 <MrsB> Same time next week :)
20:52:57 <Kernewes> long countdown
20:52:57 <wilcal> yep
20:52:58 <MrsB> #endmeeting