20:08:35 <MrsB> #startmeeting
20:08:35 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Thu Oct 31 20:08:35 2013 UTC.  The chair is MrsB. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:08:35 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:08:55 <MrsB> Hi everybody. Welcome to another one :)
20:09:07 <MrsB> #chair DavidWHodgins
20:09:07 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: DavidWHodgins MrsB
20:09:09 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Who's new? - If you are joining us then come and say hello.
20:09:31 <MrsB> Is there anybody new tonight?
20:09:54 <MrsB> rehcla: are you joining us?
20:10:13 <lewyssmith> A new name
20:10:51 <MrsB> not here at the moment though. I thinkthe new time ahs confused people
20:11:00 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Firefox update - Please test it! Any issues?
20:11:06 <MrsB> thanks Dave
20:11:16 <lewyssmith> Works for me
20:11:17 <MrsB> So, any issues with firefox?
20:11:27 <MrsB> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11370
20:11:30 <wilcal> Helo got sidetracked
20:11:36 <MrsB> morning wilcal
20:11:37 <DavidWHodgins> I'm having problems on it with my old i586 system, but there are other problems too, so it's not really good for testing right now.
20:11:38 <lewyssmith> Greetings
20:11:43 <wilcal> Morn'n
20:12:01 <MrsB> What kind of problems dave?
20:12:15 <MrsB> could they be graphics card related?
20:12:20 <wilcal> I'm not find'n any major issues with FF
20:12:21 <DavidWHodgins> I need to do a clean install. With firefox, it starts, but there is no graphical output.
20:12:37 <MrsB> anything in a terminal?
20:12:42 <DavidWHodgins> Nope.
20:12:49 <MrsB> is that mga3?
20:12:52 <DavidWHodgins> It doesn't crash, there is just no output.
20:13:01 <lewyssmith> Drastic
20:13:11 <DavidWHodgins> Yes, just upgraded, but had problems due to prior rpm database corruption.
20:13:24 <MrsB> yeah, did you check all rpms were there?
20:13:41 <lewyssmith> Are you asking *Dave*?
20:13:47 <DavidWHodgins> That's why I'm going to do a clean install this evening, to test it properly.
20:14:18 <MrsB> #info possible problem mga3 32 but on daves dodgy system so he'll retest after a clean install
20:14:59 <MrsB> aside from that everybody ok with it so far?
20:15:11 <DavidWHodgins> Fine on my other computer.
20:15:21 <wilcal> I've been run'n 24 on this system now for about 2-months no prob
20:15:38 <MrsB> lewis, all ok?
20:15:49 <wilcal> no problems with 24 ESL so far as I can see
20:15:53 <lewyssmith> Yes - I said thus
20:16:05 <MrsB> #info aside from daves dodgy box all seems fine
20:16:30 <MrsB> great, lets move on then, thanks
20:16:31 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Kernel/Glibc updates - Basically on hold
20:16:57 <DavidWHodgins> tmb: Have you had a chance to look at running the poc on an i586 system?
20:17:16 <lewyssmith> I want to try that
20:17:19 <MrsB> Yeah, the kernels are basically on hold until glibc has been fixed/ok'd
20:17:41 <wilcal> Will that hold up M4B1 too?
20:17:43 <DavidWHodgins> Other then the poc problem, I haven't seen any other kernel problems.
20:17:51 <tmb> DavidWHodgins: nope, will try to do so in a few days
20:17:54 <MrsB> I was going to set them all with the 'feedback' marker but thought it was more work than it was worth :)
20:18:18 <MrsB> tmb will they need to be tested again when glibc is updated?
20:19:17 <tmb> as for the kernels they dont need to wait for glibc... as it's api/abi stable and only requires kernel. 2.6.32 its safe to push separately
20:19:51 <MrsB> ok so we can go ahead and finish testign them then
20:20:04 <tmb> yes, it means 2 reboots, for those updates right now... but that's "temporary"
20:20:04 <wilcal> I've still got that Vbox wrinkle with M3-32 bit kernel
20:20:20 <MrsB> #info glibc ad kernels can be pushed separately so we can finish testing them and get them out of the way
20:20:26 <wilcal> M3-64 works ol in Vbox
20:21:06 <MrsB> great :)
20:21:15 <MrsB> lets go on then
20:21:15 <tmb> point is there are new kernel CVEs coming, so if we delay them more, I might as well re-do all kernels...
20:21:41 <MrsB> is that what you want to do tmb?
20:22:08 <DavidWHodgins> Let's hold them then, and see if the cve fixes fix the problem in m2 i586 under vbox.
20:22:46 <MrsB> we were under the impression glibc and kernels were going to be pushed together so since the problems with glibs the kernels have been largely ignored
20:22:46 <tmb> that's actually up to you guys... it just means it "invalidates" all the testing so far :/
20:23:20 <DavidWHodgins> We'll have to retest any way, when the cve fixes do come.
20:23:28 <tmb> that was because Dave hoped for a dingle reboot...
20:23:32 <wilcal> Might as well wait
20:23:40 <MrsB> ok then yeah, let's wait
20:24:02 <MrsB> we've enough going on really, we don't need to create work :)
20:24:02 <wilcal> I'm get'n to be a kernel test'n fool  :-))))))
20:24:10 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
20:24:40 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Backports - A tale of myth, mystery and fable
20:24:52 <MrsB> #info kernels have new cves so tmb will rebuild them and we'll hold for now
20:25:00 <MrsB> ahh yes
20:25:05 <wilcal> This is what I am worried about
20:25:06 <wilcal> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11463#c8
20:25:16 <MrsB> do you all remember we talked about backports before
20:25:17 <[mbot> Bug 11463: normal, Normal, qa-bugs, qa-bugs, NEW , Update request: kernel-3.10.16-1.mga3, kernel-3.10.16-1.mga3
20:25:54 <MrsB> they've been going to open soon since mageia 2 really
20:26:15 <MrsB> recently they've been waiting for the git migration
20:26:23 <wilcal> What will be the first apps to go into backports
20:26:36 <DavidWHodgins> That's up to the developers.
20:26:44 <lewyssmith> Are not Mageia applications normally pretty up-to-date?
20:26:46 <MrsB> Well, do we all understand what a backport is?
20:27:00 <wilcal> explain
20:27:34 <MrsB> backports are essentially new versions of leaf packages
20:27:56 <MrsB> our updates policy is to patch whereever possible and to keep the existing version, it helps stability
20:28:09 <lewyssmith> leaf packages = ?
20:28:18 <MrsB> people always want newer versions of things though after a while
20:28:23 <MrsB> coming to that
20:28:43 <MrsB> backports allow new versions to be created in the Backport medias
20:28:50 <wilcal> Biggest backport for me will be around Mar/Apr next year with OpenShot
20:28:52 <wilcal> moving from ver 1.4.x to 2.x. That will be a BIG jump in capability.
20:29:04 <MrsB> I have a couple of links for you
20:29:18 <MrsB> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Backports_policy
20:29:26 <MrsB> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/QA_process_for_validating_backports
20:29:44 <MrsB> Not everything can be created as a backport
20:30:23 <MrsB> we will restrict them only to things which won't break other packages by being an incompatible version
20:30:36 <MrsB> so nothing that anything else depends upon
20:31:12 <MrsB> in other words, if you think of the dependencies as a tree, the ones which can be backported are the leaves
20:31:30 <MrsB> does that make sense?
20:31:37 <wilcal> Yes
20:31:40 <lewyssmith> Yes thanks
20:32:31 <MrsB> Backports must have strict versioned requires, meaning that they must require a specific version of any dependencies
20:32:51 <lewyssmith> not >= ?
20:33:49 <MrsB> no, they should be ==
20:33:58 <DavidWHodgins> Why?
20:34:09 <DavidWHodgins> >= should be fine
20:34:33 <lewyssmith> So the branches need to be updated beforehand
20:35:46 <MrsB> It's so they can be cherrypicked, >= might be good enough really, htinking about it. They should be able to be installed and removed though without affecting the normal packages
20:36:03 <DavidWHodgins> I think >= should be fine, if the dependency is being added with the backport, as updates for the dependency, would otherwise require also changing the package that requires it, just for the version change.
20:36:31 <MrsB> yeah, we'll need to discuss that aspect of it with those who know i think
20:36:38 <MrsB> tmb any insight?
20:37:54 <DavidWHodgins> All we need to do, is ensure nothing in the backport will interfere with packages from release or updates.
20:37:56 <tmb> yeah, >= is the one that should be used for most cases
20:38:18 <MrsB> Anyway, the news is, backports *should* be opening very soon!
20:38:27 <wilcal> kool
20:38:37 <MrsB> yes, our testing of backports will be very minimal
20:38:48 <MrsB> And the lowest possible priority
20:38:54 <wilcal> We'll be able to see the apps in the repo
20:39:08 <MrsB> we'll basically ensure they install ok and start ok and can be uninstalled ok and that's about it
20:39:08 <lewyssmith> How will users cope with the media?
20:39:34 <MrsB> Backports medias are separate from Updates medias
20:39:39 <DavidWHodgins> Once there is a backport available, there'll be a blog post explaining.
20:39:45 <MrsB> enable it, install what you want, disable it
20:39:55 <DavidWHodgins> It's pretty much the same as what we do with updates testing.
20:40:12 <MrsB> yep, there are Core Backports Testing medias etc
20:41:03 <MrsB> It's completely new to most of us, certainly here and many packagers too so it will take a while until we're all up to speed
20:41:36 <DavidWHodgins> Most of the packagers should be familiar with it, from Mandriva days.
20:41:45 <MrsB> we have alot of new packagers
20:43:01 <MrsB> That's somethign else.
20:43:11 <MrsB> backports can also be new packages
20:43:58 <tmb> as long as it's in cauldron first
20:44:06 <DavidWHodgins> For the timetable, hopefully early next week, when the procedures are ready, there'll be an email on the developers list, letting them know how there part works, then when the first backport gets validated, a blog post to the general public.
20:44:36 <lewyssmith> Not one per package?
20:44:36 <wilcal> So to get into backport the package version must be in Cauldron
20:45:01 <MrsB> no blog post per package no, just a post to announce backports are opening
20:45:06 <DavidWHodgins> There'll be a mailing list for the backports, as I understand it.
20:45:23 <MrsB> there will also be a backports-announce mailing list, similar to the updates-announce one
20:45:25 <tmb> thats the idea, yes
20:45:33 <wilcal> Makes sense
20:46:18 <lewyssmith> I did not know about those
20:46:23 <lewyssmith> MLs
20:46:44 <lewyssmith> Do the public subscribe?
20:46:45 <MrsB> yeah, useful
20:47:13 <DavidWHodgins> lewyssmith: They are all open to the public, except the board one.
20:47:29 <lewyssmith> Open is one thing; offer taken up is another
20:47:37 <tmb> question is... should we have same kind of advisories like updates ?
20:48:05 <DavidWHodgins> Probably a good idea to have them.
20:48:20 <DavidWHodgins> We'll need to id the srpm to be pushed, anyway.
20:48:33 <MrsB> I think we should list rpm's aswell as srpms on our advisories btw
20:49:02 <MrsB> be nice if that happened automatically though
20:49:06 <DavidWHodgins> All advisories, or just the backports?
20:49:20 <MrsB> all really. People installing updates install the rpms
20:50:21 <DavidWHodgins> tmb: Can the script that pushes updates, and posts the a advisories be modified to also generate and include a list of rpm packages in the advisories?
20:50:23 <tmb> thats the idea... only list srpm in advisory, and the tool would add the rpms list automatically .... but one again someone needs to start coding that feature too...
20:50:52 <MrsB> there are only sysadmins know how it all fits together
20:52:09 <tmb> well, anyone who knows how to query rpm database according to srpm name can code that part up...
20:52:09 <lewyssmith> Can we move on?
20:52:11 <MrsB> So, is everybody OK with backports so far?
20:52:20 <wilcal> Yep
20:52:22 <DavidWHodgins> Yep
20:52:31 <MrsB> we'll talk more about them in future
20:52:39 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Mageia 2 EOL
20:52:42 <MrsB> but they will open soon, for real this time
20:52:56 <MrsB> thanks
20:53:14 <MrsB> Mageia 2 is reaching its end of life in November
20:53:20 <wilcal> Date
20:53:26 <lewyssmith> Why before M4 is out?
20:53:28 <MrsB> it's almost been 18 months already
20:53:38 <MrsB> I *think* the 22nd
20:53:52 <DavidWHodgins> Yep
20:53:57 <MrsB> https://blog.mageia.org/en/2012/05/22/mageia-2/
20:54:01 <MrsB> so yeah 22nd
20:54:21 <MrsB> that will make things a little easier for us for a while
20:54:30 <DavidWHodgins> Also https://www.mageia.org/en/support/
20:54:31 <[mbot> [ Support for Mageia distribution ]
20:54:47 <MrsB> ahh that's a good link dave, thanks
20:54:48 <DavidWHodgins> Mageia 3 still has a full year.
20:55:20 <MrsB> https://www.mageia.org/en/support/ so it gets logged
20:55:21 <[mbot> [ Support for Mageia distribution ]
20:55:37 <wilcal> M2 is what Mandriva should'a been
20:56:08 <MrsB> M2 was our first true mageia release imho
20:56:38 <MrsB> M1 was largely rebranding and M2 was pure Mageia
20:56:40 <DavidWHodgins> So once M2 is eol, everyone can free up the disk space, to make room for m4, and m3 uprgrade to m4 tests.
20:57:10 <lewyssmith> I hope M2 is going to be left in a good solid state
20:57:19 <MrsB> Just to be clear, reaching EOL means there are no more updates or bugfixes coming for it.
20:57:51 <MrsB> depends how quickly we can get the kernels released lewis :)
20:57:57 <wilcal> M1 is still in the mirrors.kernel.org repo
20:58:13 <MrsB> yes it stays on the mirrors
20:58:30 <wilcal> I don't have it here anymore
20:58:56 <MrsB> anything in the Testing medias is deleted when it reaches EOL
20:59:28 <MrsB> So it's good and sad news all at once
20:59:41 <lewyssmith> Should there be anyhting there?
20:59:56 <MrsB> in testing medias?
21:00:00 <lewyssmith> Yes
21:00:07 <MrsB> anything waiting to be tested
21:00:19 <lewyssmith> Yes
21:00:32 <DavidWHodgins> There shouldn't be, but if developers have added packages that didn't get assigned to qa, or if we don't validate the update by then, then there will be.
21:00:44 <MrsB> when it's EOL though anything which hasn't been pushed gets deleted
21:01:06 <MrsB> yep, i think there are still some X11 bits which were never assigned to us
21:01:31 <wilcal> there's nothing here in M1
21:01:43 <MrsB> M1 is long dead
21:02:06 <lewyssmith> [Sigh of relief]
21:02:11 <MrsB> Anything else to add here?
21:02:16 <wilcal> not from me
21:02:24 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Beta 1 - again
21:02:27 <MrsB> thanks
21:02:50 <MrsB> As you know, beta 1 was rescheduled due to issues with rpm and some dev stuff
21:03:17 <MrsB> We can expect the first builds soemtime this weekend though
21:03:33 <MrsB> tmb what is your schedule for this?
21:04:49 <MrsB> #info Beta 1 release is planned for 6th November, we should expect the first builds this weekend
21:05:56 <tmb> well, we are still sorting out rpm breaking deps ordering.... hopefully tonight / tomorrow I will have first isos
21:06:05 <MrsB> thanks
21:06:40 <MrsB> #info there are still bits of fixing ongoing but hopefully Friday
21:06:48 <DavidWHodgins> Everyone, make sure you rename the directories, and files, as per the email.
21:07:10 <MrsB> #info please keep an eye on qa-discuss for news
21:07:12 <wilcal> I'm ready to go here. I got the PW
21:07:29 <MrsB> #info also please make sure you have renamed your alpha3 isos ready to go
21:07:41 <lewyssmith> I find this renaming everything a PITA
21:07:55 <MrsB> it saves a 16Gb download each time
21:08:05 <lewyssmith> I do not recall it for Mag3
21:08:12 <MrsB> yeah we did
21:08:20 <DavidWHodgins> We did it for m3 too, and m2, and m1.
21:08:32 <lewyssmith> All the individual files?
21:08:38 <MrsB> it's simple to do, did you get the commands in the email?
21:08:44 <lewyssmith> Yes
21:08:48 <DavidWHodgins> It's just two commands.
21:08:49 <MrsB> they do it all for you
21:09:14 <tmb> I already put the pad up last we :)
21:09:19 <tmb> http://bn.parinux.org/p/mageia4beta1
21:09:21 <[mbot> [ Etherpad Lite ]
21:09:27 <ennael> (hi there)
21:09:44 <MrsB> just cd to where you kept the alpha3 isos and use the two commands to rename everything for you
21:09:48 <MrsB> morning ennael
21:09:50 <DavidWHodgins> The only part of the renaming I find a bit of a pain, is having to remove/readd all of the iso images to vb.
21:10:05 <MrsB> yeah
21:10:20 <MrsB> any news from your side ennael ?
21:10:29 <wilcal> You'n me both David
21:10:39 <ennael> not really I'll start tomorrow working on isos
21:10:54 <MrsB> ok thanks
21:11:23 <MrsB> Anything else to add here?
21:11:30 <wilcal> Not from me
21:11:42 <DavidWHodgins> #topic Anything else?
21:11:56 <DavidWHodgins> Nothing else here.
21:11:59 <wilcal> When will a contact person for FOSDEM 2014 be named?
21:11:59 <MrsB> I'll email the iso testers list to warn people they are coming tomorrow
21:12:20 <MrsB> what kind of contact person?
21:12:41 <wilcal> Where Mageia people will be staying contacting Fri eve ect ect
21:13:04 <MrsB> ennael do we have a wiki page for fosdem yet?
21:13:27 <ennael> not yet
21:13:56 <MrsB> you can see last years here https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Fosdem_2013
21:14:05 <MrsB> i'll let you know though as soon as I know
21:14:06 <wilcal> If I go I have to pull the trigger here in Mid Dec
21:14:16 <wilcal> Ya I saw the 2013 thing
21:14:16 <MrsB> you're going?
21:14:26 <wilcal> For now I'm a go
21:14:32 <MrsB> brilliant, well done
21:14:37 <ennael> we are still watigin for an answer for the boot
21:14:42 <MrsB> booth
21:14:44 <ennael> booth
21:14:47 <MrsB> :D
21:14:50 <ennael> :)
21:15:01 <ennael> iso building is hurting
21:15:19 <MrsB> it's in the early stages of being organised at the moment
21:15:48 <MrsB> Is there anything else else?
21:15:58 <wilcal> FWIW over the years I've probably done 100's of Trade Shows
21:16:01 <DavidWHodgins> Nothing else here.
21:16:06 <wilcal> nut'n here
21:16:13 <lewyssmith> Nor me
21:16:30 <MrsB> thanks for coming then everybody and thanks to tmb and ennael too
21:16:33 <MrsB> T-5
21:16:34 <wilcal> Anxious to see the M4B1 isos
21:16:39 <MrsB> 4
21:16:41 <MrsB> 3
21:16:43 <MrsB> 2
21:16:45 <MrsB> 1
21:16:50 <MrsB> Same time next week :)
21:16:54 <MrsB> #endmeeting