20:05:40 <Akien> #startmeeting
20:05:40 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Tue Jan 31 20:05:40 2017 UTC.  The chair is Akien. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:05:40 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:05:55 <Akien> #chair marja wilcal
20:05:55 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: Akien marja wilcal
20:06:26 <Akien> So welcome to this new meeting, 30 seconds after the last one :D
20:06:32 <marja> :-)
20:06:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> should trim the log of the old one...
20:06:48 <Akien> #topic Mageia 6 sta2
20:06:53 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: yes, that would be nice
20:07:29 <wilcal> Is this really mostly about: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20074
20:07:32 <[mbot> [ Bug 20074 Partitions with Type: Empty corrupt the partition table ]
20:07:38 <Akien> So the state for sta2 is still relatively similar to last week as mentioned on the ML: waiting for that bug ^ to be fixed
20:07:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> afaik, wasn't there a proposed patch by Martin?
20:08:04 <Akien> There has been some progress though as Thierry uploaded a new set of patches based off Martin's
20:08:10 <marja> several, and tv had enhanced some
20:08:19 <Akien> So this time we're waiting for Martin's go I guess :D
20:09:14 <Akien> I think I'll propose in the bug report that Martin makes a test ISO using those patches (if he agrees with them) so that we can test and see how it ges
20:09:15 <Akien> *goes
20:09:28 <marja> Akien: thx
20:09:30 <wilcal> The message from the last QA meeting is that sta2 cannot proceed without fixing 20074 :-(
20:09:34 <Akien> Testing installer patches is not trivial so with an ISO it would be simpler :D
20:09:49 <Pharaoh_Atem> does the current set of patches also resolve https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20161 and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19888 ?
20:09:52 <[mbot> [ Bug 20161 On non-GPT disk an empty partition is created when diskdrake does the partitioning, because it mistakenly thinks a BIOS boot partition is needed. ]
20:10:03 <Pharaoh_Atem> or at least, intend to resolve it?
20:10:11 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: I'm not 100% sure but I guess it addresses their issue at least in part
20:10:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> they are the only remaining "blocker" bugs in the partitioner
20:10:51 <Akien> I'll see what Martin can do, ideally we'd have a test Live ISO tomorrow
20:12:00 <Akien> So otherwise I'd say it's statu quo from our end, we just need to give our two devs some time to fix it properly :) (while continuing to poke them :p)
20:12:55 <stormi> It's too bad that we always get delays because of only one blocking issue at a time
20:13:04 <filip_> ... poke them gently
20:13:07 <stormi> I would have loved sta2 isos for fosdem
20:13:10 <Pharaoh_Atem> with a pointy stick
20:13:12 <wilcal> Excellent point Akien. Sorry to push a little you used the word "time". How much?
20:13:49 <Akien> wilcal: No idea, as much as needed but ideally as little as possible :D
20:14:06 <Pharaoh_Atem> stormi: I see proposed patches for the bugs in the bugs themselves, so if we can poke tv and Martin with pointy sticks, we might have something for FOSDEM
20:14:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> so there's *clearly* some idea of how to solve the problem
20:14:20 <Akien> I'll write on the bug report to propose that martin makes ISOs for us to test the patches, so hopefully we'd have a test ISO tomorrow
20:14:47 <stormi> yeah I told Thierry monday on the phone that it was the number one priority and he gave it some time
20:14:51 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: Yeah but stormi's point is that it blocked us for like a month, and maybe we'll find a new blocking issue just after that
20:15:07 <Akien> So the progress is slow due to these blockers being discovered and worked on sequentially
20:15:10 <wilcal> Is this truly our problem or is it something upstream we do not have control of?
20:15:18 <stormi> it is ours
20:15:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> well, unfortunately, we *are* upstream
20:15:31 <Pharaoh_Atem> all the problems lie in drakx
20:16:06 <wilcal> thks
20:16:29 <wilcal> Is this new for M6 or was it also in M5?
20:16:43 <Pharaoh_Atem> I don't know if BIOS GPT was tested in M5
20:16:52 <Akien> It was quite similar for mga5, the biggest blockers were issues in our tools that took time to fix
20:17:07 <wilcal> there's that word "time" again
20:17:08 <stormi> Is it only about BIOS + GPT?
20:17:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> currently, I think the remaining issues are derived from that configuration, yes
20:17:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> EFI + GPT works, and BIOS + MBR works too
20:17:56 <stormi> Then I would probably have pushed for releasing sta2 if I'd known
20:18:00 <Akien> Well yes, fixing bugs is related to that continuum we call "time" :)
20:18:07 <stormi> with a big warning for the others
20:18:27 <stormi> but now it's too late for saying that :)
20:18:31 <marja> stormi: no, bios+MBR risks getting a corrupted partition table
20:18:32 <Pharaoh_Atem> BIOS + GPT is only mandatory if you have an OS disk that's 2TB or greater
20:18:33 <Akien> I'm not sure it's only BIOS + GPT though, my understanding was that it affected most configurations
20:18:48 <wilcal> fwiw I always completely wipe my test drives clean and start from zero so i guess I never see thjis
20:19:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> Akien: one of the issues is related to diskdrake and drakx getting confused on handling BIOS + GPT/MBR hybrid disks
20:19:41 <Pharaoh_Atem> that's where BIOS boot partitions are getting created as empty partitions and diskdrake winds up corrupting the whole thing later
20:19:43 <Akien> Yeah but 20161 is about non-GPT for example
20:19:47 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: no, pure BIOS + MBR disks risk getting a broken partition table
20:20:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> marja: because the installer is trying to create a hybrid disk :/
20:20:17 <Akien> I'm not sure what caused the issues in the first place, but at least we know tv and martinw are fixing them :)
20:20:17 <Pharaoh_Atem> when it shouldn't be
20:20:40 <Pharaoh_Atem> partitioning is the worst part of this :(
20:20:46 <Akien> Anyway as I said above, there's not much that we can do.
20:20:56 <Akien> (I mean "we" here)
20:21:04 <marja> :-)
20:21:13 <wilcal> Important that we discuss this here
20:22:29 <wilcal> Two of my blockers the VLC/nvidia thing and Amarok seem to have been fixed
20:22:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> awesome
20:23:01 <wilcal> other then the partition thing M6 plasma looks really really good
20:23:04 <Akien> Good point, in the meantime we should try to have the rest of the forces focus on other blockers: http://madb.mageia.org/tools/blockers
20:23:12 <[mbot> [ Mageia App Db - Current Blockers ]
20:23:27 <Pharaoh_Atem> from my point of view, I'm still doggedly waiting on tmb or someone to tackle my infra blocker bugs
20:23:35 <stormi> note that I removed all bugs from the tracking bug because it's obsolete but some old habits had remained
20:23:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19432 and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18669
20:23:41 <[mbot> [ Bug 19432 RPM-MD repodata should always be signed with the Mageia key ]
20:25:09 <stormi> Yeah and tmb is not present for now, he probably his not in the condition to be
20:25:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> I've had at least one person ask me why GNOME seems to think we have nothing in our repositories, which is directly a consequence of bug 18669 not being done
20:25:55 <Akien> Does tmb come to FOSDEM? :)
20:26:02 <stormi> and of gnome doing things its own way? :)
20:26:13 <Pharaoh_Atem> stormi: well, Plasma Discover has the same problem :(
20:26:29 <stormi> ok I'll reattach the troll then
20:26:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> fortunately, we do have plasma-pk-updates for doing updates independently of Plasma Discover
20:26:41 <Pharaoh_Atem> and plasma-pk-updates doesn't care :)
20:28:36 <Akien> I just went through the list of blockers quickly, and the good news is that once we're past those partitioner bugs, we are quite near to final IMO
20:28:47 <marja> :-)
20:29:16 <Akien> There of course still the plasma/xembedsniproxy bug which we are not sure how to fix yet, but we know a workaround that we could make with for the release
20:30:09 <Akien> Some others are issue that could be fixed with an update provided we mention them in the errata. I don't say there's no work to do anymore, but it's looking good
20:30:32 <Akien> For the sysadmin issues we'll need to put some more pressure again :)
20:30:39 <stormi> or beers
20:30:40 <Akien> FOSDEM can typically help with that :D
20:30:54 <Akien> yeah, "bière pression" :p
20:30:55 <stormi> and if it doesn't work, bears
20:30:58 <Pharaoh_Atem> if we get them drunk, do they work faster and better? :)
20:31:04 <marja> lol
20:31:04 <Akien> harder and strong too :p
20:31:17 <Akien> "beer pressure" is very powerful
20:31:22 <Pharaoh_Atem> haha
20:31:40 <Pharaoh_Atem> maybe we can also get the MirrorBrain situation sorted out, too
20:31:53 <marja> that would be nice
20:32:09 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'd like for reliable mirror selection :)
20:32:36 * filip_ 2
20:33:17 <Akien> Should we move on to our next topic? :D
20:33:22 <marja> yes please
20:33:25 <Akien> #topic Communication
20:33:47 <Akien> marja mentioned on the ML that we should maybe do something regarding the outdated localized blogs
20:33:50 <marja> maybe start with the outdated blogs? like this one http://blog.mageia.org/pl/
20:33:51 <[mbot> [ Mageia Blog (Polski) | Nowa dystrybucja Linuksa ]
20:34:08 <marja> last post in 2014
20:34:31 <Akien> I think the really outdated blogs should likely be removed
20:34:37 <marja> we have only few localized blogs that get updated regularly
20:34:43 <marja> Akien: +1
20:34:54 <Akien> Then we have some who get translations only for big announcements, which is fine
20:35:03 <stormi> maybe post a call for volunteer on the related blogs to reach the potential natives?
20:35:19 <marja> stormi: yeah, good idea to first try that
20:35:29 <Akien> For those, it would be great to have a possibility (maybe a wordpress plugin?) to show links to English posts between localized posts
20:35:51 <Akien> To show that there is some "upstream" activity on the EN blog
20:35:53 <filip_> or maybe more than just links
20:36:25 <Akien> Maybe link + excerpt, but it shouldn't take the whole focus from the actually translated content IMO, otherwise it would be like having 10 English blogs :D
20:36:25 <Pharaoh_Atem> how many languages are even actively maintained currently?
20:36:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> I know of English, French, German, and Spanish, but what else?
20:36:50 <marja> Ukrainian is well maintained
20:37:26 <Akien> Yeah yurchor usually translates without 30 min :D
20:37:35 <Akien> *within
20:37:37 <marja> a problem with the blogs is that they aren't translated in Transifex
20:37:56 <marja> Transifex is what most of our translators use
20:38:02 <Pharaoh_Atem> you'd need a different platform for that kind of translation capability
20:38:30 <Akien> Yeah right now all blogs are their own wordpress instance
20:38:44 <Akien> (and since they're not all up to date, well... you know wordpress' security :D)
20:38:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> oh dear
20:38:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> that's... really not good
20:39:13 <Akien> Well it's not like there is much data to compromise, they're on their own VM
20:39:21 <filip_> indeed. we depsperatelly need more sysadmins
20:39:46 <Akien> I can update the blogs automatically via the admin interface, but it's annoying to have to do it 10 times each time :)
20:39:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> actually, it looks like there *is* a transifex plugin for WordPress
20:39:55 <marja> wow
20:40:02 <Pharaoh_Atem> and it would potentially even let us get rid of duplicate WordPress instances, too
20:40:11 <marja> nice
20:40:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> https://docs.transifex.com/integrations/wordpress
20:40:21 <[mbot> [ WordPress | Transifex Documentation ]
20:40:22 <Akien> If we could rework the blog to have only one multilingual instance, that would be great yes
20:40:31 <filip_> indeed
20:40:38 <filip_> and TX is a great bonus
20:40:43 <Akien> It could use a theme update too :p
20:41:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> most of the Mageia website could use a facelift
20:41:40 <Akien> Well www is not that bad )
20:41:41 <Akien> :)
20:41:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> clicking the mageia logo leads to to an empty page with only the header and footer
20:41:59 <Akien> But there's always room for improvement yeah, it's not very trendy :)
20:42:11 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: let me see
20:42:21 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: it should lead the map page
20:42:23 <Akien> http://www.mageia.org/en/map/
20:42:24 <Pharaoh_Atem> it does
20:42:24 <[mbot> [ Mageia.org site map ]
20:42:27 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's very useless
20:42:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> there's no "obvious" way to get back to the home page on the website
20:43:36 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: from which page did you click logo
20:43:38 <marja> funny, I have the feeling it is rather recent that our website had a facelift
20:44:21 <marja> it looks good to me
20:44:24 <Pharaoh_Atem> filip_: any of them (home page, about us, downloads, wiki, etc.)
20:44:33 <filip_> I agree that some facelift and maybe some responsive design would be nice but I'm not strong there at all
20:44:40 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: link please
20:44:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> what I "expect" is that clicking the mageia logo takes you to mageia.org home page
20:44:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> instead of site map
20:44:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> https://www.mageia.org/en/downloads/
20:44:55 <[mbot> [ Download Mageia 5.1 ]
20:44:59 <Pharaoh_Atem> click mageia logo in top left
20:45:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> takes you to site map instead of https://www.mageia.org/en/
20:45:15 <[mbot> [ Home of the Mageia project ]
20:45:45 <filip_> ah. that's intentional but I kinda agree
20:46:17 <stormi> who uses site maps?
20:46:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> no one I know
20:46:26 <filip_> I do ;)
20:46:30 <marja> me too
20:46:34 <Pharaoh_Atem> okay two people I know
20:46:36 <filip_> I'm often lost ;)
20:46:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> I feel it's redundant when the map is the footer of every page
20:46:52 <Akien> A site map is useful when the website is not well enough designed typically :p
20:47:01 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: But it's not
20:47:07 <Akien> Though it could be added as a footer instead
20:47:18 <Akien> Like on http://fosdem.org/
20:47:20 <[mbot> [ FOSDEM 2017 - Home ]
20:47:27 <marja> I'd be fine with it being in the footer
20:47:31 <Akien> (which is also an example of not that well organized website, so you need the site map to actually find info)
20:47:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> https://getfedora.org/ works that way too
20:47:34 <[mbot> [ Fedora ]
20:47:40 <filip_> indeed we can move link from map to index now that it's in the footer
20:48:15 <Akien> filip_: We mean having the list of links in the footer directly, not the link to the site map page
20:48:34 <marja> ah, it is in the footer.. just a bit light grey
20:49:00 <filip_> Akien: can you elaborate please?
20:49:28 <Akien> filip_: See the two above links :)
20:49:33 <stormi> the footer is the site map
20:49:46 * marja thinks that's too messy
20:49:46 <Akien> http://fosdem.org/ and https://getfedora.org/
20:49:47 <[mbot> [ FOSDEM 2017 - Home ]
20:49:53 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem's suggestion seems good. to replace logo link from map to index. if we agree I can do it soonish
20:50:04 <marja> filip_: I'm fine with that
20:50:08 <Akien> Sure
20:50:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> yay
20:50:49 <marja> filip_: and if the link to the sitemap could be a bit darker grey
20:50:58 <Pharaoh_Atem> it makes one bit of unexpected behavior go away in the website
20:51:48 <Akien> filip_, marja: We have two footers right now (the one with "Support", "Community", "About") and another one with site map + privacy policy
20:52:05 <Akien> Maybe the second one should be merged in the first one, thus giving more visibility to the in-footer sitemap link
20:52:16 * marja agrees
20:52:24 <Akien> (So 5 links instead of 3 in the "top" footer)
20:52:54 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: if you have some more suggestion can you please do a BR so that we'll not forget?
20:53:34 <filip_> It's alos possible to integrate current sitemap into footer as those pages ^^^
20:53:54 <filip_> s/alos/also
20:54:16 <Akien> I guess it would be worth discussing further on the atelier ML or a bug report yes
20:54:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> a "BR"?
20:54:25 <Akien> bug report
20:54:28 <Pharaoh_Atem> ah
20:54:32 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: a bug report assigned to atelier
20:54:38 <Akien> It's the right time to start hacking at visual aspects of the website before the mga6 release :)
20:54:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> yeah, which brings me to something else
20:55:22 <Pharaoh_Atem> as we begin wrapping up mga6, we should be thinking about how to present Mageia to people
20:55:29 <Pharaoh_Atem> "why pick Mageia" basically
20:55:49 <Pharaoh_Atem> at this point, it's hard to say what makes Mageia important or special against all the other distros out there
20:56:06 <Akien> Well there's a FOSDEM talk about this in 4 days :p
20:56:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> there *are* good things, but we need to figure out how to communicate them so that people are interested
20:56:23 <Pharaoh_Atem> and attract users and contributors into the project
20:56:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> (I won't be at FOSDEM, so that's why I'm bringing this up now :) )
20:56:37 <filip_> very good point but I suck at frontend
20:57:00 <Akien> ennael, stormi and I had a good brainstorming about all this, right now we're a bit busy actually preparing the slides, but we'll start some discussions on the MLs
20:57:10 <marja> good
20:57:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> case in point, a few years ago, when Fedora was on its downward slope, they started talking about Fedora.next and how to present Fedora, its values, and its vision to people
20:57:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> the successful execution of that has allowed it to climb in popularity to the segment of people they target
20:57:45 <Akien> Basically our point is that the killer feature of Mageia nowadays is that it's a reliable "big" community distro where everyone has the potential to be a contributor and to actually make an impact on their system
20:58:13 <Pharaoh_Atem> community is good, easy to get involved is good, but what's the attraction before those things?
20:58:16 <filip_> Akien: that's good start but we need to spread that word
20:58:16 <Akien> i.e. high quality with low entry barrier, and lots of fun
20:58:34 <Akien> Well the attraction is wanting to actually get involved
20:58:35 <Pharaoh_Atem> what's our user experience story, I guess is what I'm getting at
20:58:40 <Akien> Yeah
20:58:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> what makes people look at Mageia and say: "this looks awesome, I want to use THIS on my computer!"
20:59:06 <Akien> Like get involved, and go from translator to dev team leader and C++ game engine developer (me <=)
20:59:17 <marja> :-)
20:59:25 <Pharaoh_Atem> everyone starts as a user of the system, and that's the catch
20:59:29 <stormi> indeed
20:59:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> attracting those people and then getting them interested in helping improve it is important
20:59:50 <stormi> Well it's stable, relatively up to date, independant
20:59:55 <wilcal> I got involved in 98 because Slowaris wasn't working for us. :-0...
20:59:58 <stormi> quite easy to use
20:59:59 <Pharaoh_Atem> haha
21:00:03 <Pharaoh_Atem> indeed
21:00:17 <stormi> But those are not the differenciating factors
21:00:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> I don't have any specific answers on this, but what I'm trying to get at is that our marketing currently does not convey what makes us special, awesome, or attractive
21:01:22 <wilcal> Hello David
21:01:24 <DavidWHodgins> Sorry, wasn't watching the clock
21:01:28 <Pharaoh_Atem> hey DavidWHodgins
21:01:35 <DavidWHodgins> Have skimmed through the log of the meeting so far
21:01:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> stormi: but yeah, do you get what I'm asking?
21:01:49 <DavidWHodgins> Not much, if anything I would have added
21:01:55 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: you're right, we really need to learn to do better
21:01:55 <stormi> Pharaoh_Atem: yes
21:02:22 <Pharaoh_Atem> we need that "hook" that gets people WANTING to use Mageia, and from there we can convert them into contributors
21:02:44 <Pharaoh_Atem> I feel that is a critical element that we need to be sustainably successful
21:02:46 <stormi> We're not a distro just for contributers but also for users who want just to be users... Although we do try to make it easy to join and contribute.
21:03:32 <Pharaoh_Atem> and maybe we should have something for sharing people's stories about why they use Mageia
21:03:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> as users and as contributors
21:03:38 <filip_> stormi: at last part we're already good
21:03:44 <stormi> If someone wants a generalist distro that's easy to use, from the RPM world, I'll say Mageia
21:04:03 <Pharaoh_Atem> Fedora has the "How do you Fedora" series on the Fedora Magazine
21:04:06 <wilcal> How I started with Mageia aka Mandrake/Mandriva
21:04:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> I think something similar would be incredibly valuable for us, to show that people DO use it and DO care about it
21:04:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> but we should also build an awesome user story that makes Mageia attractive
21:04:55 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: thx for great suggestions
21:05:01 <Pharaoh_Atem> np
21:05:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> anyway, I don't know if this can be done before we release Mageia 6, but I feel like we should really make a splash when we do release it
21:05:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> and I think this is an aspect we should do something about before we release so it's ready to go
21:05:48 <marja> About communication with our users, do we need a blog post to explain why 6sta2 hadn't been released yet?
21:05:57 <Pharaoh_Atem> yes
21:06:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> 6sta2 is way past overdue
21:06:33 <marja> Akien: would you have time to write a blog post again?
21:06:36 <DavidWHodgins> If it can be fixed soon, perhaps just an explanation along with the release annoucement, rather then a seperate post
21:06:58 <Akien> marja: probably not this week :/
21:07:04 <stormi> didn't we have blog posts in the making?
21:07:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> I kind of wish we delivered nightlies with the requisite "may eat your cats and punt puppies" disclaimer with how long this has been going
21:07:09 <marja> Akien: np
21:07:15 <stormi> it could be a side note to a more positive blog post
21:07:24 <DavidWHodgins> Point out that Mageia's policy, is that we won't release till it's ready. Not worry about arbitrary deadlines.
21:07:47 <stormi> We did say that alraedy
21:07:58 <Pharaoh_Atem> I think we've said that several times now...
21:08:04 <Akien> Indeed :) Most people don't mind that we're late actually
21:08:07 <stormi> and here, arbitrary deadlines or not, we're totally late
21:08:12 <Akien> But we do need to get them updated about what we're doing
21:08:34 <Akien> So not "sorry we're late again since", but "here's what we're working on in cauldron"
21:08:35 <Pharaoh_Atem> if we were on the original plans, we'd be talking about mga7 right now :P
21:08:41 <Akien> Hehe
21:09:00 <Akien> Let's just skip mga6, we're in 201*7* :p
21:09:04 <filip_> Donald is mostly offline until Feb. 2nd but he wrote that we can nag him for blogs
21:09:29 <Akien> Otherwise yes we have incoming blog posts from ennael, Pharaoh_Atem and me normally :)
21:09:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> yep
21:09:55 <DavidWHodgins> One of Mageia's strongest selling points, is stablility, in my opinion.
21:09:58 <Akien> (mine would be about games, it's a bit too "unimportant" to go before sta2 announcement IMO, but one from Pharaoh_Atem or ennael could be published soon I think)
21:10:14 <stormi> I agree with DavidWHodgins
21:10:21 * marja too
21:10:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's important to define what stability is when you use that as a reason
21:10:34 <marja> stability and the security fixes
21:10:37 <Akien> And actually long support cycle.
21:10:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> there are two kinds of those :)
21:10:51 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: two?
21:10:52 <stormi> stability means it does not break with updates
21:10:58 <Akien> I know lots of Linux users who find Ubuntu LTS boring, but can't keep up with a 6-month schedule like Fedora or Ubuntu
21:10:59 <stormi> and works well
21:11:36 <stormi> and of course gets its security updates
21:11:45 <Pharaoh_Atem> marja: There's Debian stable (where stuff doesn't get updated) and there's RHEL stable (where things are updated/rebased while retaining expectations of usefulness and behavior, or otherwise meticulously documented)
21:12:00 <wilcal> Remember the Ubuntu update on a Friday that killed the OS. That was more then a few years ago.
21:12:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> marja: exchange RHEL with SUSE and then it makes sense :)
21:12:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> RHEL and Debian have similar kinds of stability
21:13:00 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: ok :-)
21:13:23 <Pharaoh_Atem> but yeah, Mageia's stability is not "unchanging" but "well-handled"
21:13:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> software updates come through all the time, and we do rebase software when needed, but we handle it "with grace" for lack of a better phrasing
21:14:15 <marja> :-)
21:14:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> well, unless we're put in a bad spot (*glares at ownCloud*)
21:14:20 <DavidWHodgins> Updates only, unless new version is needed as older versions can't be maintained, but with careful testing of new versiosns, where appropriate
21:14:28 <Pharaoh_Atem> precisely
21:15:10 <stormi> It's an OS you don't have to worry about once installed
21:15:29 <DavidWHodgins> Should add new version is needed, for security fixes, as that's the only execption allowed
21:15:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> and we have backports for other kinds of things
21:15:51 <stormi> What about ending the meeting?
21:16:03 <Pharaoh_Atem> stormi: we're on a roll :P
21:16:15 <DavidWHodgins> Just got started. :-)
21:16:39 <stormi> Then I'll leave you because it's a busy week on my side :)
21:16:55 <marja> stormi: good night
21:17:06 <DavidWHodgins> I was joking. If there are no other topics, then ending is fine with me.
21:17:09 <Akien> I guess we can say the formal meeting ends now, but we can continue chatting about our arketing :)
21:17:11 <Akien> *marketing
21:17:17 <Pharaoh_Atem> yep
21:17:26 <stormi> that was my untold suggestion :)
21:17:26 <Akien> I'll keep the logs going for now
21:18:09 <Akien> #chair Pharaoh_Atem
21:18:09 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: Akien Pharaoh_Atem marja wilcal
21:18:16 <Pharaoh_Atem> woo!
21:18:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> chairpower!
21:18:27 <Akien> Just adding a chair in case I forget to end the meeting :P
21:18:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> well, the bot could just break again :P
21:18:37 <marja> Akien: didn't you update wordpress once (not the package, but the instances in use), or did I misunderstand?
21:18:59 <Akien> marja: I've updated it several times, it can be done easily through the wordpress admin section
21:19:16 <DavidWHodgins> Another big plus for Mageia is transparency. With Mandriva, as a user, I had no idea how dececions were made. With Mageia, 99.99% of discussions are public
21:19:21 <Akien> It's just annoying to have to log into 10 blogs to update them + then update the plugins (hopefully we only have a couple of those)
21:19:33 <marja> Akien: when starting the Dutch version it says an update is available
21:19:45 <Akien> marja: And also, I don't know if we have backups, so if it messes up during this auto update... I have no clue how to recover.
21:19:53 <marja> lol
21:19:55 <Akien> But so far so good, I've done at least 10 updates and it worked fine.
21:20:16 <Akien> I guess I'll do the updates now :)
21:20:23 <marja> Akien: thx
21:20:32 <Akien> (the fun part is also that the admin interface for each blog is localized :p)
21:20:46 <Akien> So it's fun to update the Greek or Russian blogs hehe
21:21:18 <marja> lol.... like installing Mageia in a different language.. that goes well, unless something unexpected happens
21:21:23 <wilcal> It's all Greek to me
21:22:10 <marja> wilcal: you've done so many installs, you could easily install in Greek
21:22:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> DavidWHodgins: transparency is a really good reason, but from a user point of view, it doesn't look very transparent now
21:22:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> the discussions happen in IRC or mailing lists, and neither are searchable or easily locatable
21:23:07 <Pharaoh_Atem> it doesn't help that sympa is awful and also configured in such a way that no search engine indexes anything from it
21:23:11 <DavidWHodgins> My point being all mailing lists are public where most decisions are made
21:23:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> right, and it's valid
21:23:31 <Pharaoh_Atem> and I agree, that you *can* find out how any decision was made
21:23:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm just not sure users would necessarily agree
21:24:59 <marja> for most users that is way too hard... I know where to look, and I've sometimes needed a lot of time to find the mails or IRC logs in which something was decided
21:25:06 <DavidWHodgins> Maybe we should remind users in the blog post how they can follow what's going on, if they want to
21:25:19 <marja> good idea
21:25:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> I think we should also make our MLs searchable and indexable again
21:25:29 <Pharaoh_Atem> we look like an enormous black hole
21:27:20 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: First task for you when you become a sysadmin :-)
21:27:31 <Pharaoh_Atem> if I was a sysadmin, I'd kill sympa with fire
21:28:26 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: but let's first try to get stormi and danf promoted.... they've been sysadmin apprentices for months (or even a year)
21:28:32 <Pharaoh_Atem> yeah
21:28:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> they can do stuff too ;)
21:28:54 <Akien> marja: do you know if tmb comes to FOSDEM or is he on the wiki page due to copypaste from 2016?
21:29:23 <marja> Akien: baud copied it, and he decided to leave some people on the page
21:29:44 <Akien> Hehe
21:29:49 <marja> Akien: so I guess someone had told him tmb would be there (and pterjan)
21:30:20 <marja> and AL13N (who'll really be there, but maybe more for jolla/sailfish)
21:30:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> AL13N works for Jolla?
21:30:59 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: no, but his first jolla app was just published
21:31:21 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: he works for some Belgian company
21:32:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> ah
21:36:38 * marja gets the impression we're drifting off to dream land
21:36:46 <wilcal> yup
21:36:49 <Pharaoh_Atem> murp
21:36:53 <wilcal> I'm pretty done
21:36:58 <Akien> Indeed :)
21:37:04 <Akien> #endmeeting