20:05:40 <Akien> #startmeeting 20:05:40 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Tue Jan 31 20:05:40 2017 UTC. The chair is Akien. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:05:40 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 20:05:55 <Akien> #chair marja wilcal 20:05:55 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: Akien marja wilcal 20:06:26 <Akien> So welcome to this new meeting, 30 seconds after the last one :D 20:06:32 <marja> :-) 20:06:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> should trim the log of the old one... 20:06:48 <Akien> #topic Mageia 6 sta2 20:06:53 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: yes, that would be nice 20:07:29 <wilcal> Is this really mostly about: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20074 20:07:32 <[mbot> [ Bug 20074 Partitions with Type: Empty corrupt the partition table ] 20:07:38 <Akien> So the state for sta2 is still relatively similar to last week as mentioned on the ML: waiting for that bug ^ to be fixed 20:07:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> afaik, wasn't there a proposed patch by Martin? 20:08:04 <Akien> There has been some progress though as Thierry uploaded a new set of patches based off Martin's 20:08:10 <marja> several, and tv had enhanced some 20:08:19 <Akien> So this time we're waiting for Martin's go I guess :D 20:09:14 <Akien> I think I'll propose in the bug report that Martin makes a test ISO using those patches (if he agrees with them) so that we can test and see how it ges 20:09:15 <Akien> *goes 20:09:28 <marja> Akien: thx 20:09:30 <wilcal> The message from the last QA meeting is that sta2 cannot proceed without fixing 20074 :-( 20:09:34 <Akien> Testing installer patches is not trivial so with an ISO it would be simpler :D 20:09:49 <Pharaoh_Atem> does the current set of patches also resolve https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=20161 and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19888 ? 20:09:52 <[mbot> [ Bug 20161 On non-GPT disk an empty partition is created when diskdrake does the partitioning, because it mistakenly thinks a BIOS boot partition is needed. ] 20:10:03 <Pharaoh_Atem> or at least, intend to resolve it? 20:10:11 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: I'm not 100% sure but I guess it addresses their issue at least in part 20:10:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> they are the only remaining "blocker" bugs in the partitioner 20:10:51 <Akien> I'll see what Martin can do, ideally we'd have a test Live ISO tomorrow 20:12:00 <Akien> So otherwise I'd say it's statu quo from our end, we just need to give our two devs some time to fix it properly :) (while continuing to poke them :p) 20:12:55 <stormi> It's too bad that we always get delays because of only one blocking issue at a time 20:13:04 <filip_> ... poke them gently 20:13:07 <stormi> I would have loved sta2 isos for fosdem 20:13:10 <Pharaoh_Atem> with a pointy stick 20:13:12 <wilcal> Excellent point Akien. Sorry to push a little you used the word "time". How much? 20:13:49 <Akien> wilcal: No idea, as much as needed but ideally as little as possible :D 20:14:06 <Pharaoh_Atem> stormi: I see proposed patches for the bugs in the bugs themselves, so if we can poke tv and Martin with pointy sticks, we might have something for FOSDEM 20:14:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> so there's *clearly* some idea of how to solve the problem 20:14:20 <Akien> I'll write on the bug report to propose that martin makes ISOs for us to test the patches, so hopefully we'd have a test ISO tomorrow 20:14:47 <stormi> yeah I told Thierry monday on the phone that it was the number one priority and he gave it some time 20:14:51 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: Yeah but stormi's point is that it blocked us for like a month, and maybe we'll find a new blocking issue just after that 20:15:07 <Akien> So the progress is slow due to these blockers being discovered and worked on sequentially 20:15:10 <wilcal> Is this truly our problem or is it something upstream we do not have control of? 20:15:18 <stormi> it is ours 20:15:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> well, unfortunately, we *are* upstream 20:15:31 <Pharaoh_Atem> all the problems lie in drakx 20:16:06 <wilcal> thks 20:16:29 <wilcal> Is this new for M6 or was it also in M5? 20:16:43 <Pharaoh_Atem> I don't know if BIOS GPT was tested in M5 20:16:52 <Akien> It was quite similar for mga5, the biggest blockers were issues in our tools that took time to fix 20:17:07 <wilcal> there's that word "time" again 20:17:08 <stormi> Is it only about BIOS + GPT? 20:17:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> currently, I think the remaining issues are derived from that configuration, yes 20:17:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> EFI + GPT works, and BIOS + MBR works too 20:17:56 <stormi> Then I would probably have pushed for releasing sta2 if I'd known 20:18:00 <Akien> Well yes, fixing bugs is related to that continuum we call "time" :) 20:18:07 <stormi> with a big warning for the others 20:18:27 <stormi> but now it's too late for saying that :) 20:18:31 <marja> stormi: no, bios+MBR risks getting a corrupted partition table 20:18:32 <Pharaoh_Atem> BIOS + GPT is only mandatory if you have an OS disk that's 2TB or greater 20:18:33 <Akien> I'm not sure it's only BIOS + GPT though, my understanding was that it affected most configurations 20:18:48 <wilcal> fwiw I always completely wipe my test drives clean and start from zero so i guess I never see thjis 20:19:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> Akien: one of the issues is related to diskdrake and drakx getting confused on handling BIOS + GPT/MBR hybrid disks 20:19:41 <Pharaoh_Atem> that's where BIOS boot partitions are getting created as empty partitions and diskdrake winds up corrupting the whole thing later 20:19:43 <Akien> Yeah but 20161 is about non-GPT for example 20:19:47 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: no, pure BIOS + MBR disks risk getting a broken partition table 20:20:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> marja: because the installer is trying to create a hybrid disk :/ 20:20:17 <Akien> I'm not sure what caused the issues in the first place, but at least we know tv and martinw are fixing them :) 20:20:17 <Pharaoh_Atem> when it shouldn't be 20:20:40 <Pharaoh_Atem> partitioning is the worst part of this :( 20:20:46 <Akien> Anyway as I said above, there's not much that we can do. 20:20:56 <Akien> (I mean "we" here) 20:21:04 <marja> :-) 20:21:13 <wilcal> Important that we discuss this here 20:22:29 <wilcal> Two of my blockers the VLC/nvidia thing and Amarok seem to have been fixed 20:22:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> awesome 20:23:01 <wilcal> other then the partition thing M6 plasma looks really really good 20:23:04 <Akien> Good point, in the meantime we should try to have the rest of the forces focus on other blockers: http://madb.mageia.org/tools/blockers 20:23:12 <[mbot> [ Mageia App Db - Current Blockers ] 20:23:27 <Pharaoh_Atem> from my point of view, I'm still doggedly waiting on tmb or someone to tackle my infra blocker bugs 20:23:35 <stormi> note that I removed all bugs from the tracking bug because it's obsolete but some old habits had remained 20:23:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=19432 and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=18669 20:23:41 <[mbot> [ Bug 19432 RPM-MD repodata should always be signed with the Mageia key ] 20:25:09 <stormi> Yeah and tmb is not present for now, he probably his not in the condition to be 20:25:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> I've had at least one person ask me why GNOME seems to think we have nothing in our repositories, which is directly a consequence of bug 18669 not being done 20:25:55 <Akien> Does tmb come to FOSDEM? :) 20:26:02 <stormi> and of gnome doing things its own way? :) 20:26:13 <Pharaoh_Atem> stormi: well, Plasma Discover has the same problem :( 20:26:29 <stormi> ok I'll reattach the troll then 20:26:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> fortunately, we do have plasma-pk-updates for doing updates independently of Plasma Discover 20:26:41 <Pharaoh_Atem> and plasma-pk-updates doesn't care :) 20:28:36 <Akien> I just went through the list of blockers quickly, and the good news is that once we're past those partitioner bugs, we are quite near to final IMO 20:28:47 <marja> :-) 20:29:16 <Akien> There of course still the plasma/xembedsniproxy bug which we are not sure how to fix yet, but we know a workaround that we could make with for the release 20:30:09 <Akien> Some others are issue that could be fixed with an update provided we mention them in the errata. I don't say there's no work to do anymore, but it's looking good 20:30:32 <Akien> For the sysadmin issues we'll need to put some more pressure again :) 20:30:39 <stormi> or beers 20:30:40 <Akien> FOSDEM can typically help with that :D 20:30:54 <Akien> yeah, "bière pression" :p 20:30:55 <stormi> and if it doesn't work, bears 20:30:58 <Pharaoh_Atem> if we get them drunk, do they work faster and better? :) 20:31:04 <marja> lol 20:31:04 <Akien> harder and strong too :p 20:31:17 <Akien> "beer pressure" is very powerful 20:31:22 <Pharaoh_Atem> haha 20:31:40 <Pharaoh_Atem> maybe we can also get the MirrorBrain situation sorted out, too 20:31:53 <marja> that would be nice 20:32:09 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'd like for reliable mirror selection :) 20:32:36 * filip_ 2 20:33:17 <Akien> Should we move on to our next topic? :D 20:33:22 <marja> yes please 20:33:25 <Akien> #topic Communication 20:33:47 <Akien> marja mentioned on the ML that we should maybe do something regarding the outdated localized blogs 20:33:50 <marja> maybe start with the outdated blogs? like this one http://blog.mageia.org/pl/ 20:33:51 <[mbot> [ Mageia Blog (Polski) | Nowa dystrybucja Linuksa ] 20:34:08 <marja> last post in 2014 20:34:31 <Akien> I think the really outdated blogs should likely be removed 20:34:37 <marja> we have only few localized blogs that get updated regularly 20:34:43 <marja> Akien: +1 20:34:54 <Akien> Then we have some who get translations only for big announcements, which is fine 20:35:03 <stormi> maybe post a call for volunteer on the related blogs to reach the potential natives? 20:35:19 <marja> stormi: yeah, good idea to first try that 20:35:29 <Akien> For those, it would be great to have a possibility (maybe a wordpress plugin?) to show links to English posts between localized posts 20:35:51 <Akien> To show that there is some "upstream" activity on the EN blog 20:35:53 <filip_> or maybe more than just links 20:36:25 <Akien> Maybe link + excerpt, but it shouldn't take the whole focus from the actually translated content IMO, otherwise it would be like having 10 English blogs :D 20:36:25 <Pharaoh_Atem> how many languages are even actively maintained currently? 20:36:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> I know of English, French, German, and Spanish, but what else? 20:36:50 <marja> Ukrainian is well maintained 20:37:26 <Akien> Yeah yurchor usually translates without 30 min :D 20:37:35 <Akien> *within 20:37:37 <marja> a problem with the blogs is that they aren't translated in Transifex 20:37:56 <marja> Transifex is what most of our translators use 20:38:02 <Pharaoh_Atem> you'd need a different platform for that kind of translation capability 20:38:30 <Akien> Yeah right now all blogs are their own wordpress instance 20:38:44 <Akien> (and since they're not all up to date, well... you know wordpress' security :D) 20:38:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> oh dear 20:38:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> that's... really not good 20:39:13 <Akien> Well it's not like there is much data to compromise, they're on their own VM 20:39:21 <filip_> indeed. we depsperatelly need more sysadmins 20:39:46 <Akien> I can update the blogs automatically via the admin interface, but it's annoying to have to do it 10 times each time :) 20:39:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> actually, it looks like there *is* a transifex plugin for WordPress 20:39:55 <marja> wow 20:40:02 <Pharaoh_Atem> and it would potentially even let us get rid of duplicate WordPress instances, too 20:40:11 <marja> nice 20:40:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> https://docs.transifex.com/integrations/wordpress 20:40:21 <[mbot> [ WordPress | Transifex Documentation ] 20:40:22 <Akien> If we could rework the blog to have only one multilingual instance, that would be great yes 20:40:31 <filip_> indeed 20:40:38 <filip_> and TX is a great bonus 20:40:43 <Akien> It could use a theme update too :p 20:41:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> most of the Mageia website could use a facelift 20:41:40 <Akien> Well www is not that bad ) 20:41:41 <Akien> :) 20:41:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> clicking the mageia logo leads to to an empty page with only the header and footer 20:41:59 <Akien> But there's always room for improvement yeah, it's not very trendy :) 20:42:11 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: let me see 20:42:21 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: it should lead the map page 20:42:23 <Akien> http://www.mageia.org/en/map/ 20:42:24 <Pharaoh_Atem> it does 20:42:24 <[mbot> [ Mageia.org site map ] 20:42:27 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's very useless 20:42:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> there's no "obvious" way to get back to the home page on the website 20:43:36 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: from which page did you click logo 20:43:38 <marja> funny, I have the feeling it is rather recent that our website had a facelift 20:44:21 <marja> it looks good to me 20:44:24 <Pharaoh_Atem> filip_: any of them (home page, about us, downloads, wiki, etc.) 20:44:33 <filip_> I agree that some facelift and maybe some responsive design would be nice but I'm not strong there at all 20:44:40 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: link please 20:44:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> what I "expect" is that clicking the mageia logo takes you to mageia.org home page 20:44:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> instead of site map 20:44:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> https://www.mageia.org/en/downloads/ 20:44:55 <[mbot> [ Download Mageia 5.1 ] 20:44:59 <Pharaoh_Atem> click mageia logo in top left 20:45:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> takes you to site map instead of https://www.mageia.org/en/ 20:45:15 <[mbot> [ Home of the Mageia project ] 20:45:45 <filip_> ah. that's intentional but I kinda agree 20:46:17 <stormi> who uses site maps? 20:46:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> no one I know 20:46:26 <filip_> I do ;) 20:46:30 <marja> me too 20:46:34 <Pharaoh_Atem> okay two people I know 20:46:36 <filip_> I'm often lost ;) 20:46:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> I feel it's redundant when the map is the footer of every page 20:46:52 <Akien> A site map is useful when the website is not well enough designed typically :p 20:47:01 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: But it's not 20:47:07 <Akien> Though it could be added as a footer instead 20:47:18 <Akien> Like on http://fosdem.org/ 20:47:20 <[mbot> [ FOSDEM 2017 - Home ] 20:47:27 <marja> I'd be fine with it being in the footer 20:47:31 <Akien> (which is also an example of not that well organized website, so you need the site map to actually find info) 20:47:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> https://getfedora.org/ works that way too 20:47:34 <[mbot> [ Fedora ] 20:47:40 <filip_> indeed we can move link from map to index now that it's in the footer 20:48:15 <Akien> filip_: We mean having the list of links in the footer directly, not the link to the site map page 20:48:34 <marja> ah, it is in the footer.. just a bit light grey 20:49:00 <filip_> Akien: can you elaborate please? 20:49:28 <Akien> filip_: See the two above links :) 20:49:33 <stormi> the footer is the site map 20:49:46 * marja thinks that's too messy 20:49:46 <Akien> http://fosdem.org/ and https://getfedora.org/ 20:49:47 <[mbot> [ FOSDEM 2017 - Home ] 20:49:53 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem's suggestion seems good. to replace logo link from map to index. if we agree I can do it soonish 20:50:04 <marja> filip_: I'm fine with that 20:50:08 <Akien> Sure 20:50:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> yay 20:50:49 <marja> filip_: and if the link to the sitemap could be a bit darker grey 20:50:58 <Pharaoh_Atem> it makes one bit of unexpected behavior go away in the website 20:51:48 <Akien> filip_, marja: We have two footers right now (the one with "Support", "Community", "About") and another one with site map + privacy policy 20:52:05 <Akien> Maybe the second one should be merged in the first one, thus giving more visibility to the in-footer sitemap link 20:52:16 * marja agrees 20:52:24 <Akien> (So 5 links instead of 3 in the "top" footer) 20:52:54 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: if you have some more suggestion can you please do a BR so that we'll not forget? 20:53:34 <filip_> It's alos possible to integrate current sitemap into footer as those pages ^^^ 20:53:54 <filip_> s/alos/also 20:54:16 <Akien> I guess it would be worth discussing further on the atelier ML or a bug report yes 20:54:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> a "BR"? 20:54:25 <Akien> bug report 20:54:28 <Pharaoh_Atem> ah 20:54:32 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: a bug report assigned to atelier 20:54:38 <Akien> It's the right time to start hacking at visual aspects of the website before the mga6 release :) 20:54:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> yeah, which brings me to something else 20:55:22 <Pharaoh_Atem> as we begin wrapping up mga6, we should be thinking about how to present Mageia to people 20:55:29 <Pharaoh_Atem> "why pick Mageia" basically 20:55:49 <Pharaoh_Atem> at this point, it's hard to say what makes Mageia important or special against all the other distros out there 20:56:06 <Akien> Well there's a FOSDEM talk about this in 4 days :p 20:56:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> there *are* good things, but we need to figure out how to communicate them so that people are interested 20:56:23 <Pharaoh_Atem> and attract users and contributors into the project 20:56:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> (I won't be at FOSDEM, so that's why I'm bringing this up now :) ) 20:56:37 <filip_> very good point but I suck at frontend 20:57:00 <Akien> ennael, stormi and I had a good brainstorming about all this, right now we're a bit busy actually preparing the slides, but we'll start some discussions on the MLs 20:57:10 <marja> good 20:57:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> case in point, a few years ago, when Fedora was on its downward slope, they started talking about Fedora.next and how to present Fedora, its values, and its vision to people 20:57:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> the successful execution of that has allowed it to climb in popularity to the segment of people they target 20:57:45 <Akien> Basically our point is that the killer feature of Mageia nowadays is that it's a reliable "big" community distro where everyone has the potential to be a contributor and to actually make an impact on their system 20:58:13 <Pharaoh_Atem> community is good, easy to get involved is good, but what's the attraction before those things? 20:58:16 <filip_> Akien: that's good start but we need to spread that word 20:58:16 <Akien> i.e. high quality with low entry barrier, and lots of fun 20:58:34 <Akien> Well the attraction is wanting to actually get involved 20:58:35 <Pharaoh_Atem> what's our user experience story, I guess is what I'm getting at 20:58:40 <Akien> Yeah 20:58:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> what makes people look at Mageia and say: "this looks awesome, I want to use THIS on my computer!" 20:59:06 <Akien> Like get involved, and go from translator to dev team leader and C++ game engine developer (me <=) 20:59:17 <marja> :-) 20:59:25 <Pharaoh_Atem> everyone starts as a user of the system, and that's the catch 20:59:29 <stormi> indeed 20:59:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> attracting those people and then getting them interested in helping improve it is important 20:59:50 <stormi> Well it's stable, relatively up to date, independant 20:59:55 <wilcal> I got involved in 98 because Slowaris wasn't working for us. :-0... 20:59:58 <stormi> quite easy to use 20:59:59 <Pharaoh_Atem> haha 21:00:03 <Pharaoh_Atem> indeed 21:00:17 <stormi> But those are not the differenciating factors 21:00:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> I don't have any specific answers on this, but what I'm trying to get at is that our marketing currently does not convey what makes us special, awesome, or attractive 21:01:22 <wilcal> Hello David 21:01:24 <DavidWHodgins> Sorry, wasn't watching the clock 21:01:28 <Pharaoh_Atem> hey DavidWHodgins 21:01:35 <DavidWHodgins> Have skimmed through the log of the meeting so far 21:01:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> stormi: but yeah, do you get what I'm asking? 21:01:49 <DavidWHodgins> Not much, if anything I would have added 21:01:55 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: you're right, we really need to learn to do better 21:01:55 <stormi> Pharaoh_Atem: yes 21:02:22 <Pharaoh_Atem> we need that "hook" that gets people WANTING to use Mageia, and from there we can convert them into contributors 21:02:44 <Pharaoh_Atem> I feel that is a critical element that we need to be sustainably successful 21:02:46 <stormi> We're not a distro just for contributers but also for users who want just to be users... Although we do try to make it easy to join and contribute. 21:03:32 <Pharaoh_Atem> and maybe we should have something for sharing people's stories about why they use Mageia 21:03:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> as users and as contributors 21:03:38 <filip_> stormi: at last part we're already good 21:03:44 <stormi> If someone wants a generalist distro that's easy to use, from the RPM world, I'll say Mageia 21:04:03 <Pharaoh_Atem> Fedora has the "How do you Fedora" series on the Fedora Magazine 21:04:06 <wilcal> How I started with Mageia aka Mandrake/Mandriva 21:04:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> I think something similar would be incredibly valuable for us, to show that people DO use it and DO care about it 21:04:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> but we should also build an awesome user story that makes Mageia attractive 21:04:55 <filip_> Pharaoh_Atem: thx for great suggestions 21:05:01 <Pharaoh_Atem> np 21:05:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> anyway, I don't know if this can be done before we release Mageia 6, but I feel like we should really make a splash when we do release it 21:05:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> and I think this is an aspect we should do something about before we release so it's ready to go 21:05:48 <marja> About communication with our users, do we need a blog post to explain why 6sta2 hadn't been released yet? 21:05:57 <Pharaoh_Atem> yes 21:06:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> 6sta2 is way past overdue 21:06:33 <marja> Akien: would you have time to write a blog post again? 21:06:36 <DavidWHodgins> If it can be fixed soon, perhaps just an explanation along with the release annoucement, rather then a seperate post 21:06:58 <Akien> marja: probably not this week :/ 21:07:04 <stormi> didn't we have blog posts in the making? 21:07:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> I kind of wish we delivered nightlies with the requisite "may eat your cats and punt puppies" disclaimer with how long this has been going 21:07:09 <marja> Akien: np 21:07:15 <stormi> it could be a side note to a more positive blog post 21:07:24 <DavidWHodgins> Point out that Mageia's policy, is that we won't release till it's ready. Not worry about arbitrary deadlines. 21:07:47 <stormi> We did say that alraedy 21:07:58 <Pharaoh_Atem> I think we've said that several times now... 21:08:04 <Akien> Indeed :) Most people don't mind that we're late actually 21:08:07 <stormi> and here, arbitrary deadlines or not, we're totally late 21:08:12 <Akien> But we do need to get them updated about what we're doing 21:08:34 <Akien> So not "sorry we're late again since", but "here's what we're working on in cauldron" 21:08:35 <Pharaoh_Atem> if we were on the original plans, we'd be talking about mga7 right now :P 21:08:41 <Akien> Hehe 21:09:00 <Akien> Let's just skip mga6, we're in 201*7* :p 21:09:04 <filip_> Donald is mostly offline until Feb. 2nd but he wrote that we can nag him for blogs 21:09:29 <Akien> Otherwise yes we have incoming blog posts from ennael, Pharaoh_Atem and me normally :) 21:09:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> yep 21:09:55 <DavidWHodgins> One of Mageia's strongest selling points, is stablility, in my opinion. 21:09:58 <Akien> (mine would be about games, it's a bit too "unimportant" to go before sta2 announcement IMO, but one from Pharaoh_Atem or ennael could be published soon I think) 21:10:14 <stormi> I agree with DavidWHodgins 21:10:21 * marja too 21:10:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's important to define what stability is when you use that as a reason 21:10:34 <marja> stability and the security fixes 21:10:37 <Akien> And actually long support cycle. 21:10:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> there are two kinds of those :) 21:10:51 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: two? 21:10:52 <stormi> stability means it does not break with updates 21:10:58 <Akien> I know lots of Linux users who find Ubuntu LTS boring, but can't keep up with a 6-month schedule like Fedora or Ubuntu 21:10:59 <stormi> and works well 21:11:36 <stormi> and of course gets its security updates 21:11:45 <Pharaoh_Atem> marja: There's Debian stable (where stuff doesn't get updated) and there's RHEL stable (where things are updated/rebased while retaining expectations of usefulness and behavior, or otherwise meticulously documented) 21:12:00 <wilcal> Remember the Ubuntu update on a Friday that killed the OS. That was more then a few years ago. 21:12:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> marja: exchange RHEL with SUSE and then it makes sense :) 21:12:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> RHEL and Debian have similar kinds of stability 21:13:00 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: ok :-) 21:13:23 <Pharaoh_Atem> but yeah, Mageia's stability is not "unchanging" but "well-handled" 21:13:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> software updates come through all the time, and we do rebase software when needed, but we handle it "with grace" for lack of a better phrasing 21:14:15 <marja> :-) 21:14:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> well, unless we're put in a bad spot (*glares at ownCloud*) 21:14:20 <DavidWHodgins> Updates only, unless new version is needed as older versions can't be maintained, but with careful testing of new versiosns, where appropriate 21:14:28 <Pharaoh_Atem> precisely 21:15:10 <stormi> It's an OS you don't have to worry about once installed 21:15:29 <DavidWHodgins> Should add new version is needed, for security fixes, as that's the only execption allowed 21:15:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> and we have backports for other kinds of things 21:15:51 <stormi> What about ending the meeting? 21:16:03 <Pharaoh_Atem> stormi: we're on a roll :P 21:16:15 <DavidWHodgins> Just got started. :-) 21:16:39 <stormi> Then I'll leave you because it's a busy week on my side :) 21:16:55 <marja> stormi: good night 21:17:06 <DavidWHodgins> I was joking. If there are no other topics, then ending is fine with me. 21:17:09 <Akien> I guess we can say the formal meeting ends now, but we can continue chatting about our arketing :) 21:17:11 <Akien> *marketing 21:17:17 <Pharaoh_Atem> yep 21:17:26 <stormi> that was my untold suggestion :) 21:17:26 <Akien> I'll keep the logs going for now 21:18:09 <Akien> #chair Pharaoh_Atem 21:18:09 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: Akien Pharaoh_Atem marja wilcal 21:18:16 <Pharaoh_Atem> woo! 21:18:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> chairpower! 21:18:27 <Akien> Just adding a chair in case I forget to end the meeting :P 21:18:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> well, the bot could just break again :P 21:18:37 <marja> Akien: didn't you update wordpress once (not the package, but the instances in use), or did I misunderstand? 21:18:59 <Akien> marja: I've updated it several times, it can be done easily through the wordpress admin section 21:19:16 <DavidWHodgins> Another big plus for Mageia is transparency. With Mandriva, as a user, I had no idea how dececions were made. With Mageia, 99.99% of discussions are public 21:19:21 <Akien> It's just annoying to have to log into 10 blogs to update them + then update the plugins (hopefully we only have a couple of those) 21:19:33 <marja> Akien: when starting the Dutch version it says an update is available 21:19:45 <Akien> marja: And also, I don't know if we have backups, so if it messes up during this auto update... I have no clue how to recover. 21:19:53 <marja> lol 21:19:55 <Akien> But so far so good, I've done at least 10 updates and it worked fine. 21:20:16 <Akien> I guess I'll do the updates now :) 21:20:23 <marja> Akien: thx 21:20:32 <Akien> (the fun part is also that the admin interface for each blog is localized :p) 21:20:46 <Akien> So it's fun to update the Greek or Russian blogs hehe 21:21:18 <marja> lol.... like installing Mageia in a different language.. that goes well, unless something unexpected happens 21:21:23 <wilcal> It's all Greek to me 21:22:10 <marja> wilcal: you've done so many installs, you could easily install in Greek 21:22:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> DavidWHodgins: transparency is a really good reason, but from a user point of view, it doesn't look very transparent now 21:22:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> the discussions happen in IRC or mailing lists, and neither are searchable or easily locatable 21:23:07 <Pharaoh_Atem> it doesn't help that sympa is awful and also configured in such a way that no search engine indexes anything from it 21:23:11 <DavidWHodgins> My point being all mailing lists are public where most decisions are made 21:23:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> right, and it's valid 21:23:31 <Pharaoh_Atem> and I agree, that you *can* find out how any decision was made 21:23:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm just not sure users would necessarily agree 21:24:59 <marja> for most users that is way too hard... I know where to look, and I've sometimes needed a lot of time to find the mails or IRC logs in which something was decided 21:25:06 <DavidWHodgins> Maybe we should remind users in the blog post how they can follow what's going on, if they want to 21:25:19 <marja> good idea 21:25:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> I think we should also make our MLs searchable and indexable again 21:25:29 <Pharaoh_Atem> we look like an enormous black hole 21:27:20 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: First task for you when you become a sysadmin :-) 21:27:31 <Pharaoh_Atem> if I was a sysadmin, I'd kill sympa with fire 21:28:26 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: but let's first try to get stormi and danf promoted.... they've been sysadmin apprentices for months (or even a year) 21:28:32 <Pharaoh_Atem> yeah 21:28:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> they can do stuff too ;) 21:28:54 <Akien> marja: do you know if tmb comes to FOSDEM or is he on the wiki page due to copypaste from 2016? 21:29:23 <marja> Akien: baud copied it, and he decided to leave some people on the page 21:29:44 <Akien> Hehe 21:29:49 <marja> Akien: so I guess someone had told him tmb would be there (and pterjan) 21:30:20 <marja> and AL13N (who'll really be there, but maybe more for jolla/sailfish) 21:30:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> AL13N works for Jolla? 21:30:59 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: no, but his first jolla app was just published 21:31:21 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: he works for some Belgian company 21:32:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> ah 21:36:38 * marja gets the impression we're drifting off to dream land 21:36:46 <wilcal> yup 21:36:49 <Pharaoh_Atem> murp 21:36:53 <wilcal> I'm pretty done 21:36:58 <Akien> Indeed :) 21:37:04 <Akien> #endmeeting