19:12:45 <ennael> #startmeeting
19:12:45 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Tue May 31 19:12:45 2016 UTC.  The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:12:45 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:12:48 <ennael> hi all
19:12:50 <SebthreeBQM10HD> hi
19:13:16 <tmb> hi
19:13:42 <Akien> Hi there
19:13:55 <Schultz_> Hey
19:14:24 <ennael> ok first topic to start with
19:14:32 <ennael> #topic Mageia organization: teams votes, council, board
19:15:14 <ennael> so a quick sum up of work in progress
19:15:16 <marja> #info please update this list for your team, when the elections are done https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Org_Council#2016.27s_list
19:15:23 <ennael> thanks marja
19:15:28 <marja> yw
19:15:38 <ennael> also we have now candidates for the board
19:15:46 <marja> \o/
19:15:54 <ennael> tmb: would you like to apply also ?
19:16:28 <tmb> yeah, well I'm been debating that with myself ...
19:16:34 <ennael> woot
19:16:43 <ennael> who is winning ?
19:16:59 <tmb> I havent really been doing a good job lately so I dont really know...
19:17:16 <ennael> well board was quite calm these last month anyway
19:17:39 <wilcal> how often does the board meet and when
19:17:54 <tmb> yeah, but that's the problem... we have stuff queued / to debate / decide and so on...
19:18:05 <ennael> we don't have regular meeting unfortunately
19:18:18 <wilcal> ahhhh that's a problem
19:18:19 <ennael> missing time also
19:18:30 <wilcal> Sorry gonna get American here
19:18:46 <wilcal> is there a head of the board of directors
19:18:56 <wilcal> someone in charge of the board
19:19:08 <SebthreeBQM10HD> ennael again probably :d
19:19:18 <ennael> SebthreeBQM10HD: who are you ?
19:19:23 <SebthreeBQM10HD> sebsebseb
19:19:26 <ennael> ah
19:19:27 <wilcal> you wanna do that again ennael?
19:19:48 <MrsB> Morning all
19:19:55 <wilcal> Morn'n MrsB
19:19:57 <wilcal> :-))
19:20:04 <ennael> pb we had is the board was mainly 3 people
19:20:12 <ennael> most of them disappeared
19:20:22 <wilcal> Boards of Directors I think mean something very different to me
19:20:27 <ennael> so it's hard to take any decision and meeting
19:20:48 <ennael> so anyway we need to vote for the new one
19:20:49 <ennael> then
19:20:54 <wilcal> there's like 7 -> 10 people on the board
19:20:57 <wilcal> i think
19:21:00 <ennael> no
19:21:03 <ennael> not in real
19:21:12 <wilcal> so really only 3 active
19:21:21 <wilcal> with anne in charge
19:21:21 <marja> wilcal: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Org_Board#Current_board_.282014-2016.29
19:21:24 <ennael> not even active, existing :)
19:21:40 <SebthreeBQM10HD> indeed certain people have disappared or pretty much it seems
19:21:51 <wilcal> Ya I kinda saw all that
19:22:01 <Akien> Well the Board is just the legal entity being Mageia. It's meant to manage the funds of the association, and ensure that the good operation of the association.
19:22:08 <ennael> indeed
19:22:16 <Akien> The fact is, our association is just meant so that Mageia can get donations and have a legal presence.
19:22:21 <MrsB> represent mageia's core values
19:22:23 <wilcal> direction decisions?
19:22:31 <MrsB> resolve disputes etc
19:22:44 <Akien> Most of the time we don't really need the association itself to do stuff, the Council and various teams can handle themselves.
19:22:57 <tmb> Well I guess I can keep going so we get enough people to keep Mageia going :)
19:23:03 <MrsB> decisions affecting those core values. The day to day running of stuff is down to the council
19:23:05 <Akien> And yeah as MrsB says, the Board is there to solve conflicts and take the decisions that the community can't/doesn't manage to take.
19:23:08 <marja> tmb: :-)
19:23:09 <wilcal> Has the Board dictated that there will be an ARM version of Mageia or is that happenstance
19:23:18 <ennael> no as other said
19:23:26 <Akien> wilcal: Well... You know how Mageia runs.
19:23:30 <ennael> all the operational decisions come from council
19:23:33 <SebthreeBQM10HD> well treasuer is needed at least, and I guess secratery whatever that is, but  mostly board isn't really used for much I guess
19:23:33 <wilcal> I have sooooo many stories of Boards of Directors
19:23:35 <Akien> The "Board" does not dictate anything.
19:23:39 <Akien> We're not a company :)
19:23:52 <ennael> and I guess it's better like that
19:23:53 <wilcal> Ya that's what I thought Akien
19:23:59 <Akien> If the Board dictates stuff without ensuring it's what the community wants, it kills Mageia
19:24:03 <SebthreeBQM10HD> tmb, yep you woudn't have to do much in the board it seems :D
19:24:07 <wilcal> Is that the way we want it, toothless
19:24:10 <marja> Akien: indeed
19:24:43 <SebthreeBQM10HD> what are the 7 or 9 positions anyway ?
19:24:54 <Akien> Most of the time we've let the Council take the decisions, and only go through the Board if deemed really necessary. But our workflow is bottom-up, we can't do top-down (and shouldn't)
19:25:07 <ennael> the needed positions are president, treasurer and secretary
19:25:09 <MrsB> it's not toothless wilcal, just represents mageia's core values rather than acting as a steering committee. That's what the council does.
19:25:15 <ennael> we could even work without it
19:25:36 <SebthreeBQM10HD> ok so three people get those positins, but the others are just on the board hten without a proper position ?
19:26:01 <ennael> there is no hierarchy SebthreeBQM10HD
19:26:06 <grenoya> SebthreeBQM10HD: yes, or can be adjoint to the 3 others
19:26:10 <wilcal> So randomly held meetings
19:26:25 <SebthreeBQM10HD> seems people can put them selves forward to be on the board, without doing anything or anything much at all
19:26:37 <grenoya> the french law ask only for 1 meeting per year
19:26:39 <Akien> It's for the Board to decide once elected I think, but I think we should try to have backups for the treasurer and secretary
19:26:50 <tmb> wilcal, the bard is noth toothless, but we run mageia as a community distribution so we try keep as much decisions at council level.... board only step in if council cant resolve the issues / decisions
19:27:04 <SebthreeBQM10HD> grenoya, I  quite liked a sentance in your board proposal email by the way :d h eh
19:27:04 <wilcal> FWIW I was on a Board of Directors once where the Chairman brought a whip with him and put it on the table
19:27:05 <MrsB> yes ^^
19:27:05 <grenoya> Akien: true, the 3 are elected inside the board
19:27:56 <Akien> wilcal: Well ennael has matches, but apart from that, I don't think it's the atmosphere.
19:28:38 <wilcal> So the Council is really the center of management power for Mageia
19:28:52 <ennael> yes
19:28:52 <grenoya> yes
19:28:58 <ennael> and boad for the legal side
19:29:05 <tmb> wilcal, thats the way we want it
19:29:05 * SebthreeBQM10HD thought about maybe putting forward for a board position, but then thought no  probably not actsually since....
19:29:10 <wilcal> If everyone is comfortable with that I'm ok with it
19:29:24 <MrsB> yes. It's a communnity. The teams lead. The team leaders form the council
19:29:37 <wilcal> problem is if a major decision comes up then that becomes more of a Board Decision
19:29:41 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yeah the board is really just counciol members anyway :d or association if not
19:30:07 <DavidWHodgins> Sorry I'm late
19:30:12 <Akien> SebthreeBQM10HD: This is a meeting for the elected council members, so please try not to occupy 20% of the conversation, thanks :)
19:30:15 <MrsB> dude :)
19:30:24 <Akien> Hi DavidWHodgins
19:30:25 <wilcal> Most of the time here members of the Board of Director is not active daily in the company and may in fact work for a different company
19:30:33 <marja> DavidWHodgins: :-)
19:30:42 <DavidWHodgins> I volunteer to continue on the board. My msg to the assoc list was refused
19:30:52 <wilcal> Good for you David :-))
19:31:04 <grenoya> DavidWHodgins: then we have a problem with this list :/
19:31:08 <Akien> DavidWHodgins: I received it
19:31:11 <MrsB> i got it dave
19:31:17 <ennael> sorry pb with connection
19:31:21 <Akien> It's just one of the new association members which has a bad email registered
19:31:35 <MrsB> one assocition email bounced
19:31:37 <MrsB> yep
19:32:04 <wilcal> Are there any outstanding decisions that are not being addressed by the Board
19:32:10 <DavidWHodgins> Ah. Only a bounce from g.chaudun at orange.fr
19:32:59 <DavidWHodgins> The board has even fewer meetings than the council. I don't remember when the last one was that actually did anything other then discuss organization.
19:33:17 <Akien> wilcal: s/Board/Council/ ? Basically there are as many Board decisions as you have seen emails stating "The Board decided <something>", i.e. many once or twice a year )
19:33:29 <Akien> The idea is to make the Board more able to take decisions though
19:33:55 <wilcal> FWIW i struggled with volunteering. But my midset may not be a good fit for the Mageia Board
19:34:08 <Akien> Recently with the questions from AlexL about promoting his commercial venture, most of the discussions had to happen at the Council level while the decision should have typically be a Board one (in accordance with the Council, most likely)
19:34:36 <Akien> With 9 members we should be able to have better discussions about such topics.
19:34:50 <DavidWHodgins> I think all of the board members are also council members, so the vote would likely have been the same.
19:35:15 <DavidWHodgins> There is a lot of overlap
19:35:27 <SebthreeBQM10HD> the board has been rarely used,  and most important decisions just done on the council yep. and rarely been an important enough decision to just do it on the board I think.  and this is probably my last comment in this meeting subject :)
19:35:30 <marja> DavidWHodgins: a lot of overlap, but not full overlap
19:35:34 <grenoya> DavidWHodgins: not necesarily as board is elected inside the association members who can be former council members
19:35:54 <wilcal> Some Boards are really only rubber stamps for an Owner/Dictator
19:36:12 <papoteur> DavidWHodgins: the board members are not mandatory in council.
19:36:14 <MrsB> that's company, we're community wilcal
19:36:21 <marja> wilcal: I don't think all Board members should have the same mindset
19:36:49 <wilcal> ya and I've been involved with Boards so much and seen so much
19:36:55 <marja> wilcal: as long as you don't think Mga is a company, you should be fine ;-)
19:37:33 <Akien> wilcal: I think you might just want to replace the word Board by another one. It's clearly not related to a Board of Directors as seen in American companies.
19:37:46 <wilcal> Well you all kinda see the way I think
19:38:01 <Akien> It's about non-profit associations as per the French law, which are very widespread and need to have such a "board"/"bureau" that legally represents the association.
19:38:01 <wilcal> Do you have 9 volunteers right now
19:38:37 <tmb> by a quick count we have 7 volunteers now
19:38:42 <marja> I think so, if I don't miscount
19:38:48 <wilcal> Do you absolutely need 9
19:38:54 <ennael> no
19:39:02 <ennael> seems to be 8
19:39:09 <ennael> but we planned 7 to 9
19:39:12 <wilcal> ok anne you get to decide if 7 or 8 is enough for now
19:39:19 <MrsB> well, perhaps a business mind on the board  would help us attract more businesses to join the community wilcal
19:39:28 <Akien> I count 8 yes
19:39:42 <ennael> ok so the process now
19:39:43 <wilcal> I could be the quite gorilla in the corner if needed
19:39:53 <ennael> I will configure epoll for the vote
19:40:03 <ennael> then every assocation member will be able to vote
19:40:05 <papoteur> wil o/
19:40:10 <MrsB> if you do intend to candidate you need to speak now
19:40:20 <ennael> no please mail association ML
19:40:29 <MrsB> yes that :) ^^
19:40:46 * SebthreeBQM10HD could candidate, but what's the point really :d
19:40:53 <wilcal> well put me in there and I'll help with the potential business stuff if needed
19:41:04 <DavidWHodgins> Is there any point in a vote if there are fewer candidates than positions?
19:41:10 <wilcal> I've kinda done that in the past anyway
19:41:25 <ennael> wilcal: please mail
19:41:41 <MrsB> reply to the emails on association-members@group wilcal
19:41:46 <ennael> any other question about board election ?
19:41:56 <tmb> DavidWHodgins, a vote must be held according to statues / earlier decisions
19:41:57 <Akien> DavidWHodgins: For the Board it's important I think, as it's a legal entity
19:42:08 <DavidWHodgins> Ok
19:42:14 <grenoya> indeed
19:42:21 <Akien> And it gives something to do to the association members for once :p
19:42:26 <grenoya> :))
19:42:38 <ennael> any other question ?
19:42:50 <stormi> when do we drink beer?
19:43:01 <MrsB> constantly?
19:43:05 <ennael> that's a good one :)
19:43:07 <wilcal> ok i sent a respose with my name
19:43:28 <ennael> ok quick sum up about bank account while we speak about organization
19:43:32 <tmb> meh, you can go to france and drink some water... they ave a lot of it :)
19:43:37 <wilcal> So many Boards are for free trips to Ski Resorts
19:43:38 <ennael> :)
19:43:55 <grenoya> tmb: :)
19:44:10 <ennael> so I have to go to the police because of the pb we had
19:44:21 <ennael> but I fear we will have to change account
19:44:45 <ennael> then we will have to setup a secure solution
19:44:58 <ennael> I'm waiting for technical details about the bank proposed me last time
19:45:03 <ennael> I'll let you know
19:45:32 <marja> ennael: thx for handling it (that isn't a fun job :-( )
19:45:32 <MrsB> that would solve the problem. It's all supposed to be quite easy now.
19:46:49 <ennael> so again do not publish mageia iban :)
19:47:17 <DavidWHodgins> Have to make sure more than one person knows the number though, just in case.
19:47:35 <ennael> yep
19:47:37 <marja> ennael: is there a solution for people who don't want to use paypal and don't have a credit card?
19:48:00 <ennael> that's waht we have to check
19:48:00 <marja> ennael: other then sending cash in an envelope?
19:48:05 <ennael> no way :)
19:48:10 <marja> s/then/than/
19:48:12 <marja> :-)
19:48:13 <MrsB> it's a shame we have to take action so their insecure system can carry on without the proper checks actually having to happen
19:48:17 <papoteur> DavidWHodgins: the question is not to know the count number, but to have a decisioin that thiis person can manage the count
19:48:18 <marja> ennael: pigeon post ;-)
19:48:19 <Akien> I could handle the cash :o)
19:48:46 <ennael> anything else about organization?
19:49:15 <marja> not here
19:49:25 <Akien> Just about team elections
19:49:42 <Akien> In the dev team we're still lagging behind, so ennael and I are still co-leader as per the previous elections
19:50:11 <ennael> indeed. I'd like to have 12h more per day :/
19:50:11 * MrsB gets the naughty chair
19:50:15 <Akien> But with the release hell, I think it's best if we postpone the dev team elections, and make them in a context of a more global reflection on how the dev team should go forward
19:50:16 <papoteur> Akien: do you mean to organize some elections ?
19:51:14 <papoteur> Akien: Ok ;)
19:51:18 <Akien> My main idea being that we might think about a better organization of the work for the packaging and dev parts (dev being the development of our own tools, which is quite different to packaging)
19:51:59 <Akien> But all this needs to be discussed with the dev team so that we can find the structure that helps us be efficient
19:52:08 <Akien> And then the "new" leadership should come from there IMO
19:52:27 <MrsB> we kind of decided to do that already, needs the reviewboard in place & etc tho
19:52:50 <leuhmanu> I saw iban in the source of web page on git, should it be removed ?
19:52:55 <Akien> So if ennael agrees, I guess we're asking for the permission to stay as co-leaders until we organise interesting discussions and elections after the mga6 release
19:53:20 <ennael> yep then we will be able to drink together :)
19:53:21 <DavidWHodgins> Ok by me
19:53:25 <grenoya> leuhmanu: good point! yes it would be better
19:53:29 <ennael> leuhmanu: yep
19:53:36 <Akien> leuhmanu: I removed it already, but it's still in the git history of course
19:53:45 <ennael> maybe a filter-branch or something like this to clean the source
19:53:52 <Akien> (I _think_ I removed it at least)
19:54:07 <leuhmanu> Akien: I saw it somewhere else (dodn't remember right now)
19:54:07 <Akien> We need some coling magic then :)
19:54:12 <MrsB> no objection, it makes sense to maintain stability right now.  As long as the team is ok with it.
19:54:39 <Schultz_> seems sensible to me
19:55:31 <DavidWHodgins> Probably easier to ask, "Does anyone object?".
19:55:38 <Akien> Yeah :)
19:56:23 <marja> no objection
19:56:33 <wilcal> "yep then we will be able to drink together" I know some places in Amsterdam :-))
19:56:59 <tmb> no objection
19:56:59 <wilcal> no objection here
19:57:02 <marja> wilcal: ah, nice that you'll be coming this way again
19:57:11 <grenoya> no objection
19:57:20 <Akien> Other teams still need to update https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Org_Council#2016.27s_list btw
19:57:22 <wilcal> think'n about it for FOSDEM next year
19:57:37 <Akien> Sysadmins, i18n, security
19:57:41 <marja> wilcal: \o/
19:57:52 <ennael> do we have php coders around ?
19:57:54 <Akien> (and local communities, but I'm not even sure this really ended up being a team)
19:58:10 <marja> maat: ennael is looking for a php coder
19:58:42 <ennael> if so it should not be complicated to integrate the bank solution
19:59:09 <ennael> it can use PHP, ASPX, ASP, Python, Java, RUBY eand C
19:59:14 <papoteur> filip__: ^^^
19:59:19 <grenoya> ennael: filip__ should be able to help I guess
19:59:38 <MrsB> they sometimes have plugins for various shopping carts/cms
19:59:50 <ennael> ok so let see that later :)
20:00:06 <Akien> I guess between filip__, stormi, leuhmanu and Co we'll find someone who can help :)
20:00:23 <Akien> Put it on Stormi's schedule for his next Mageia Monday :p
20:00:33 <marja> lol
20:00:52 <stormi> 4 month from now :)
20:01:04 <MrsB> about time we sent him something to do
20:01:34 <stormi> Don't feel compelled to :)
20:01:37 <ennael> anything else about that topic ?
20:01:39 <MrsB> :D
20:01:49 <Akien> Not from me
20:01:53 <papoteur> no
20:01:54 <tmb> nope
20:01:57 <DavidWHodgins> Not here
20:01:57 <marja> no
20:02:07 <wilcal> not from me
20:02:11 <MrsB> nope
20:02:21 <grenoya> no
20:03:10 <ennael> #topic  KDE mail about advisory council
20:04:00 <papoteur> I find this invitation positive
20:04:08 <ennael> have you all read the mail?
20:04:09 <DavidWHodgins> The links in the message fail to load here
20:04:39 <wilcal> Will there be one person or more then one Mageia person to represent
20:04:39 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yes seems like a nice idea for Mageia :) but just a reminder :d, Mageia is a cross desktop Linux distro, not just KDE :)
20:04:57 <wilcal> I think this is an important move
20:05:08 <ennael> SebthreeBQM10HD: I don't see the point here
20:05:17 <ennael> this is a proposal for one of our DE
20:05:20 <DavidWHodgins> Ah. The links fail in opera, but work in firefox
20:05:21 <papoteur> wilcal: for who
20:05:26 <papoteur> ?
20:05:42 <ennael> a way to recognise mageia in upstream projects
20:05:49 <ennael> and KDE is not a small one :)
20:05:50 <Schultz_> Yeah this has nothing to do with cross distro or not, its just a great chance to get involved in an excellent project
20:05:54 <wilcal> Ya so one Mageia person is our official representative at KDE right
20:06:32 <ennael> if you are all ok then we will accept. I will check how many people will be implied but neoclust should be one of them
20:06:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> it sounds good
20:06:51 <wilcal> sounds great
20:06:59 <filip__> ennael: I guess I can help with integration of the bank solution
20:07:00 <SebthreeBQM10HD> working with upstream is generally good sure :)
20:07:11 <Schultz_> Huge yes from me, for both accepting and for Neoclust
20:07:24 <ennael> can we vote for this?
20:07:31 <DavidWHodgins> I'm in favour
20:07:32 <ennael> say OK nor NO OK
20:07:34 <stormi> OK
20:07:34 <marja> just a sec
20:07:35 <tmb> ennael, does neoclust accept that too, or do you only tell him to do so :)
20:07:37 <wilcal> I'm a yes
20:07:37 <Latte> OK
20:07:39 <MrsB> It sounds great and a good opportunity. There may be fees involved though
20:07:41 <marja> does it cost money?
20:07:42 <papoteur> OK, of course
20:07:49 <SebthreeBQM10HD> my vote probably doesn't count here now, but I'll say yes anyway
20:07:49 <Akien> tmb: It's a Board decision, he should do it :p
20:07:59 <ennael> tmb: matches power :)
20:08:01 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
20:08:04 <MrsB> Patrons seem expected to pay a yearly membership
20:08:12 <lebarhon> OK but I can't find this e-mail :(
20:08:16 <grenoya> OK
20:08:37 <tmb> yeah, they want us to join as patrons so it's a fee ...
20:08:52 <marja> lebarhon: https://ev.kde.org/advisoryboard.php and https://ev.kde.org/getinvolved/supporting-members.php
20:08:53 <[mbot> [ KDE e.V. - Advisory Board ]
20:08:54 <DavidWHodgins> lebarhon: It was forwarded to the council list just before the msg about this meeting
20:08:59 <maat> hi
20:09:18 <MrsB> hmm but it does say that it's either by fee or by invitation, so I guess this is by invitation. We should check first IMHO
20:09:22 <SebthreeBQM10HD> oh for a fee hmm, but at least Mageia would be more recognised as being good for KDE then
20:09:25 <maat> <marja> maat: ennael is looking for a php coder ??
20:09:35 <lebarhon> marja: thx
20:09:54 <wilcal> €100 for Neoclust?
20:10:07 <MrsB> "Organizations can join the Advisory board either by becoming a KDE e.V. Patron or by an explicit invitation by the KDE e.V. Board. "
20:10:10 <lebarhon> DavidWHodgins: I didn't subscribe to the council list
20:10:19 <marja> maat: yep, are you available?
20:10:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> weren't we explicitly invited?
20:10:31 <wilcal> paid for by Mageia sounds good to me
20:10:32 <SebthreeBQM10HD> I thought it was a expicit invitation, but should check that yes
20:10:39 <papoteur> Pharaoh_Atem: sure
20:10:47 <maat> marja: yep sorry i could'nt be available sooner
20:10:48 <Akien> I don't think this is about these "Supporting members"
20:11:08 <ennael> well it looks like it would cost 5 000€...
20:11:10 <ennael> damned
20:11:17 <Akien> But yeah I think we should check with them that it's a proper invitation (for free)
20:11:19 <ennael> per year
20:11:24 <ennael> yep
20:11:26 <tmb> I'd rather not ok it before knowing if the fee is "mandatory" or not
20:11:31 <papoteur> Even if we have to pay something, I think we can assume that.
20:11:45 <ennael> papoteur: depending ont the amount...
20:11:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> regardless of whether we have to pay or not, we should have clarity on the terms
20:11:50 <DavidWHodgins> I agree with tmb. I didn't notice anything about a fee
20:11:59 <papoteur> ennael: ;)
20:12:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> but afaik, it looks like it should be free for us
20:12:08 <Pharaoh_Atem> since we were invited
20:12:19 <MrsB> It sounds like this counts as "by explicit invitation" so the fee is maybe reserved for corporate members
20:12:20 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: That's how I understand it too, but indeed better check first :)
20:12:21 <SebthreeBQM10HD> Pharaoh_Atem, that's what I Thought to,  but still should check
20:12:33 <Schultz_> I'm good with it, even with a fee up to a point, but 5,000 is far too much for a community like ours
20:12:43 <marja> maat: we had problems with the bank, they have a solution that requires php (or some other languages) ..... if you have time to help with the implementation, tell ennael :-)
20:12:44 <Akien> That's for sure
20:13:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> if it was like €25-€100, that's not too bad
20:13:15 <Pharaoh_Atem> but my understanding is that it should be €0
20:14:22 <Schultz_> Similar for me, but we should wait until we know for certain.
20:14:46 <papoteur> OK. ennael, do you mean ask for clarity? If it's for 0€, should be OK.
20:14:52 <ennael> so ok on the idea but let's wait for more information about fees
20:15:10 <Schultz_> I read the forwarded email as more them wondering if we would be interested and opening dialogue, so I guess it would be expected that we would discuss the details with them more first
20:16:04 <MrsB> Yes. Is this an "explicit ivitation" or just an invitation to become a fee paying patron
20:16:53 <Schultz_> ooking at the fee paying patrons that they have, I don't see how we can be expected to be in a list with Google and Suse
20:17:18 <ennael> ok I'll let you know then
20:17:26 <SebthreeBQM10HD> its probably a free invite, but got to find out more yep
20:17:26 <ennael> anything else on that topic ?
20:17:32 <MrsB> thanks ennael
20:17:45 <papoteur> no
20:17:48 <Schultz_> No, seems good to me
20:17:54 <wilcal> good to go
20:17:56 <DavidWHodgins> Nothing else here
20:18:08 <grenoya> nope
20:18:10 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm good here
20:18:13 <ennael> ok
20:18:19 <ennael> #topic Mageia 6 sta1
20:18:33 <ennael> here comes the fun part :)
20:18:39 <wilcal> :-)
20:18:41 <papoteur> yes !
20:18:45 <Pharaoh_Atem> best topic :)
20:18:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> 10/10
20:18:50 <marja> :o)
20:18:52 <MrsB> it's broken
20:19:01 <Pharaoh_Atem> :'(
20:19:04 <wilcal> only real decison to be made June of Sept/Oct
20:19:15 <wilcal> June or Sept/Oct
20:19:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'd rather it not slip to Sept/Oct
20:19:35 <wilcal> too many broken things
20:19:35 <SebthreeBQM10HD> well Mageia 6 final is dfefinetly not coming out in June :d  I guess?
20:19:47 <ennael> ok so what blocks current sta1 is about grub
20:19:57 <Pharaoh_Atem> is grub the only broken thing?
20:20:05 <wilcal> no
20:20:09 <Pharaoh_Atem> what else?
20:20:12 <wilcal> lots of stuff in KDE
20:20:14 <ennael> one of the more visible at least
20:20:16 <wilcal> Plasma
20:20:27 <MrsB> Perhaps it's time we thought about dropping grub
20:20:30 <tmb> wilcal, first we get -sta1 out, look on how it looks, then figure out timeline...
20:20:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> grub1 should probably be dropped by now
20:20:44 <SebthreeBQM10HD> dropping Grub???  distros need a boot loader
20:20:46 <wilcal> i agree tmb
20:20:48 <ennael> tmb: yes sounds good
20:20:52 <wilcal> drop grub 1
20:20:53 <SebthreeBQM10HD> oh the old grub
20:20:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> SebthreeBQM10HD: we'd have grub2
20:21:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> grub-legacy should be killed without prejudice
20:21:15 <Pharaoh_Atem> err with prejudice
20:21:16 <DavidWHodgins> I use grub legacy. I don't want an os for a boot loader
20:21:35 <Pharaoh_Atem> but the problem is that grub legacy is unmaintained
20:21:43 <SebthreeBQM10HD> most distros have dropped Grub 1, and do Grub 2
20:21:44 <wilcal> ahhhh
20:21:51 <ennael> DavidWHodgins: unless you can maintain it we will drop it
20:21:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> unless we have people who actually can develop grub legacy, we're kind of SOL
20:22:02 <DavidWHodgins> Ouch
20:22:10 <MrsB> we've always resisted moving to grub2 but perhaps if it's simply not working with new "stuff" then it's time to think seriously about whather we can support it ourselves
20:22:20 <DavidWHodgins> Can we bring back lilo? :)
20:22:22 <tmb> the problem is that grub2 is insanely bloated compared to grub legacy, so we will have to go with grub2 for now...
20:22:35 <SebthreeBQM10HD> Pharaoh_Atem, yeah apparantly the last Grub 1 versibon 0.97???  was just a hacked version or something like that by distros, not really maintained upstream so
20:22:47 <tmb> *but we dont have an alternative now,so...*
20:23:19 <DavidWHodgins> If we have to, just have to make sure we warn people clearly.
20:23:24 <MrsB> it's one less thing to fit on the dvd
20:23:32 <DavidWHodgins> True
20:23:44 <SebthreeBQM10HD> Grub 1 can go sure, but as long as Grub 2 works well enough and that's with BIOS and EFI systems hmm
20:24:06 <DavidWHodgins> grub2 is currently the only option for efi systems
20:24:13 <Pharaoh_Atem> grub2 can be set up pretty minimally if we want to
20:24:14 <tmb> so the suggestion for mga6 is to not provide grub leacy as option in installer, but still keep it on repos so people upgrading are not forced to switch bootloader yet
20:24:29 <Pharaoh_Atem> but wouldn't grub legacy break upon upgrade?
20:24:35 <papoteur> It's the first time we propose to drop grub1. Is the decision to take tonight?
20:24:40 <Pharaoh_Atem> yes
20:24:42 <tmb> then add in release notes it's deprecated and will be removed in mga7
20:24:52 <ennael> sounds reasonable
20:24:55 <DavidWHodgins> That sounds ok to me
20:25:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm good with that
20:25:01 <wilcal> ok with me
20:25:08 <SebthreeBQM10HD> if it's in repos should be ok on upgrade?
20:25:09 <MrsB> it seems to work well enough. Could do with prettifying a bit maybe, but I  think we're one of the few remaining users of legacy grub. I'm in favour of dropping it.
20:25:15 <Schultz_> sounds sensible about dropping off media, gives time to prepare and such
20:25:20 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: good question.... but upgrading will be tested, too
20:25:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> do we have conversion scripts for grub legacy to grub2?
20:25:39 <tmb> Pharaoh_Atem, nope, the breakage comes from e2fstools 1.43 activating new features on newly formatted disks, it does not change already formatted ones
20:25:39 <SebthreeBQM10HD> MrsB, indeed most distros have long moved away from Grub legacy
20:25:51 <SebthreeBQM10HD> altough it's nice enough when it works
20:25:57 <Pharaoh_Atem> tmb: ah, then we should be okay, hopefully
20:26:08 <maat> <marja> maat: we had problems with the bank [...] tell ennael :-) <-- ok send me details by mail and i'll tell you if i can help
20:26:20 <marja> maat: ok
20:26:32 <tmb> and technically it would work for ever with separate /boot :)
20:27:07 <SebthreeBQM10HD> the installer could make a seperate /boot on install :D or to much work for little gain to implement etc etc
20:27:08 <Pharaoh_Atem> we should probably provide a path for upgrading from grub legacy though
20:27:35 <MrsB> it more or less happens automatically with os-prober
20:27:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> and moving to grub2 also makes it possible to do fun things in the future (like booting to btrfs snapshots)
20:28:14 * SebthreeBQM10HD wonders what the issue is with Grub legacy since hasn't been following that,
20:28:16 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm not sure what the state of that feature is in upstream grub2, but I know the suse guys have patches for it
20:28:28 <Pharaoh_Atem> SebthreeBQM10HD: grub legacy has been unmaintained for the better part of the decade
20:28:45 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yes I know that but how is is now broken in Mageia dev
20:28:45 <Pharaoh_Atem> the grub devs were focusing on PUPA, which became GRUB 2
20:29:02 <papoteur> SebthreeBQM10HD: we get error 14 after new installation. And no go.
20:29:09 <SebthreeBQM10HD> oh
20:29:18 <tmb> yeah, we should atleast document how to migrate grub -> grub2 ...
20:29:29 <SebthreeBQM10HD> don't know what erorr 14 is but I Guess it means won't boot basically
20:29:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> SebthreeBQM10HD: it's unrecognizable boot volume
20:29:48 <SebthreeBQM10HD> ok
20:29:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> basically, it can't parse the partition
20:30:11 <SebthreeBQM10HD> tmb, yes
20:30:12 <tmb> grub error 14 comes from it does not properly read the 64bit parts of ext4
20:30:31 <SebthreeBQM10HD> oh
20:30:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> ext4 support in grub legacy was always kind of hokey, imo
20:31:19 <Pharaoh_Atem> but I think we should finally start the process to kill it off, so that we can move to grub2
20:31:20 <tmb> there are some 64bit support in grub legacy, but it's a "on/off switch" so fliping it on breaks backwards compat..
20:31:27 <MrsB> it should be quite straight forward really. It won't involve efi as old grub doesn't support it, so the upgrade path should be pretty similar for everybody
20:31:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> MrsB: so why not just upgrade it as part of the mga5->mga6 upgrade?
20:32:01 <MrsB> that's what will happen
20:32:14 <SebthreeBQM10HD> that has to go bang on right though, or people won't be ablle to boot up OSes ?
20:32:19 <tmb> yeah, tv will switch stage2 to default to grub2
20:32:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> so we'll also move from grub to grub2 on upgrades
20:32:42 <SebthreeBQM10HD> so then the question is to leave it in the repos of Mageia 7 or drop from the repos as well
20:32:54 <MrsB> drak tools may need tweaking along the way
20:32:56 <tmb> nope, lets not force it on people
20:32:57 <DavidWHodgins> MrsB: Pharaoh_Atem is saying change it on upgrades. I don't like that idea, if we still have it available for Mageia 6.
20:33:12 <MrsB> we won't thought Dave. It won't work
20:33:25 <MrsB> that's the whole reason for this
20:34:27 <DavidWHodgins> Changing it on upgrade from Mageia 6 to 7 is ok by me. Not from 5 to 6.
20:34:28 <tmb> MrsB, grub legacy will work in upgrades, it's new installs it chokes on
20:34:40 <MrsB> oh ok, didn't realise that
20:34:57 <Pharaoh_Atem> we *will* need to drop it for mga7 entirely
20:35:08 <Pharaoh_Atem> so an upgrade path from grub to grub2 needs to start being thought about
20:35:39 <MrsB> stage2 will still need to support grub1 & grub2 then, but remove grub1 option on new installs
20:35:50 <tmb> Yeah, the idea is to focus on droping grub lagacy as soon as cauldron re-opens post mga6
20:36:27 <tmb> MrsB, yep, we'll hide the grub legacy option in installer..
20:36:46 <MrsB> it'll still need to be shown for upgrades though
20:37:15 <Schultz_> it was already unavailable on the boot.iso install I did a few days ago
20:37:21 <MrsB> can be hidden entirely on live isos
20:38:09 <tmb> MrsB, yeah, but drakx already have support for that part as it sets a "is_upgrade" flag which we can filtter on for hiding or not
20:38:23 <Pharaoh_Atem> can we give people a conversion option during drakx upgrades?
20:38:44 <MrsB> we can still default to grub2 on upgrades, but retain support forgrub1 also
20:39:01 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'd definitely prefer that
20:39:31 <tmb> But yeah, I can try switching grub2 as default on live medias
20:39:37 <SebthreeBQM10HD> but changing from grub 1 that works before upgrade, to a grub 2 that didn't install right on upgrade possibly, could be hmm
20:40:54 <SebthreeBQM10HD> it has to work! or people will be like ah!
20:41:26 <MrsB> nice of you to volunteer for testing SebthreeBQM10HD
20:41:40 <SebthreeBQM10HD> MrsB, maybe in a vm :d
20:42:00 <ennael> ok so when this is ok we will be able to rebuild isos
20:42:35 <tmb> well, it means more work for QA to ensure it works in whatever setup grub lagacy is running on to grub2
20:43:30 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yep
20:43:51 <MrsB> there is no real way to avoid that. We will need to ask the community to test the new feature
20:44:16 <MrsB> please no kernels at iso time though :P
20:44:20 <ennael> :)
20:44:39 <marja> tmb: whatever? There are people who chainload into 10 installs from different OSs and/or distros
20:44:43 <tmb> Hm, does even bootloader setup get shown on upgrades ?
20:45:25 <tmb> I haven't done a iso upgrade in a long time, only urpmi...
20:45:34 <SebthreeBQM10HD> tmb, good point,  I think maybe at the very end, but not sure
20:45:55 <MrsB> it does IIRC. we haven't begun upgrade testing yet and I'm getting too old to remember last year :D
20:46:11 <Schultz_> if your chaining 10 OSs, then you can read the release notes...
20:46:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> haha
20:46:16 <Pharaoh_Atem> yes
20:46:29 <wilcal> we're not anywhere near upgrade testing
20:46:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> if you're doing lots of multi-boot, you're either using grub2 already, or you're going to need to redo everything
20:46:46 <SebthreeBQM10HD> h eh yeah
20:46:57 <tmb> marja, well grub leagacy could be set up on a raid install wich in not sure grub2 will properly handle and so on...
20:47:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> grub2 handles raid just fine
20:47:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> the latest grub 2.02 handles lvm boot too, I believe
20:47:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> the only feature I'm unsure of is the btrfs subvolume and boot to snapshot features
20:47:36 <tmb> Pharaoh_Atem, I mean it _must_ handle the conversion without breaking...
20:47:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> ah
20:47:45 <MrsB> openqa would be useful to test thi skind of thing..
20:47:45 <marja> tmb: ok, I agree with that
20:47:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> MrsB: yes, most def
20:47:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> that's what it's for :)
20:47:58 * MrsB hint
20:48:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm hoping that I can now start testing distro sync and system upgrade capabilities with DNF, which should hopefully help with the overall upgrade testing process
20:49:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> since I have now pushed new default configs for that
20:49:34 <Pharaoh_Atem> for the first time in a long time, I need to set up some mga5 stuff to do testing :)
20:52:34 <SebthreeBQM10HD> h eh whols still awake :d
20:52:35 <tmb> anyway, as soon as tv fixes the missing stage2 changes, we can rebuild hopefully final -sta1 isos  (have you heard that one before...)
20:52:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> heh
20:52:55 <Pharaoh_Atem> do we have a package list of what's going to be on -sta1?
20:53:02 <wilcal> I think a few here are falling asleep :-))
20:53:28 <DavidWHodgins> Still here
20:53:33 <MrsB> Let's move on then. Was there anything else for tonight ennael?
20:53:52 <tmb> Pharaoh_Atem, anything you want on them ?
20:54:04 <marja> dnf :-)
20:54:15 <Schultz_> :)
20:54:29 <Pharaoh_Atem> tmb: well, I'd like to see dnf, dnf-plugins-core, and the respective PackageKit frontends for the desktops on them
20:55:12 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'd like for there to be wider testing of DNF, now that we have some kind of basic config for them
20:55:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> and definitely the PackageKit changes, too
20:55:33 <tmb> Pharaoh_Atem, I think the packagekit parts are always on the isos as the DEs have deps on them... but the dnf packages need to be added
20:55:59 <tmb> (atleast the packagekit parts used to get pulled in)
20:56:02 <Pharaoh_Atem> after all, one or two people testing isn't quite enough, even though marja has been awesome on the feedback
20:56:26 <tmb> should we pull in manatools too or is that to early ?
20:56:45 <Pharaoh_Atem> we should probably talk to anaselli and ALI3N about that
20:56:49 <MrsB> is there room?
20:56:49 <tmb> problem of couse is that isos grow...
20:56:51 <Schultz_> It does for whats left of kde4, not sure on plasma though
20:58:09 <tmb> and we dont want to go beyond 4GB for CI , and tecnically Live isos should stay at 1GB (but they are already 1.5 and 1.8 GB) :)
20:58:12 <Pharaoh_Atem> DNF shouldn't be an enormous addition, since most of the underlying deps are already pulled in by PackageKit
20:58:23 <marja> tmb: manatools is broken atm (unless it was pushed in the last days)
20:58:51 <tmb> marja, ok, so wont add that for now then
20:59:27 <Pharaoh_Atem> hopefully I can make some time to work on dnfdragora too
20:59:47 <tmb> so that's all for now I guess befora everyone fall asleap
21:00:10 <DavidWHodgins> Nothing else here.
21:00:14 <wilcal> i'm done :-))
21:00:16 <Pharaoh_Atem> nothing else really from me
21:00:18 <SebthreeBQM10HD> two hours or so meeting
21:00:19 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yeah
21:00:21 * tmb atleast need to get some sleep
21:00:32 <marja> tmb: sleep well :-)
21:00:36 <SebthreeBQM10HD> tmb, yeah your on the next day now I think
21:00:38 <MrsB> countdown?
21:00:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> rest easy tmb, I'll get back to poking you about MirrorBrain tomorrow :)
21:00:48 <ennael> so looks like the good time to close the meeting
21:01:04 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yep
21:01:26 <MrsB> Productive meeting. Thanks everybody :)
21:01:32 <wilcal> bye all
21:01:37 <marja> ennael: :)
21:01:38 <ennael> thanks all and have a good night
21:01:44 <Pharaoh_Atem> good night everyone
21:01:44 <ennael> and water...
21:01:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> :)
21:01:48 <marja> wilcal: bye
21:01:49 <lebarhon> Good night
21:01:50 <ennael> #endmeeting