19:12:45 <ennael> #startmeeting 19:12:45 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Tue May 31 19:12:45 2016 UTC. The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:12:45 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:12:48 <ennael> hi all 19:12:50 <SebthreeBQM10HD> hi 19:13:16 <tmb> hi 19:13:42 <Akien> Hi there 19:13:55 <Schultz_> Hey 19:14:24 <ennael> ok first topic to start with 19:14:32 <ennael> #topic Mageia organization: teams votes, council, board 19:15:14 <ennael> so a quick sum up of work in progress 19:15:16 <marja> #info please update this list for your team, when the elections are done https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Org_Council#2016.27s_list 19:15:23 <ennael> thanks marja 19:15:28 <marja> yw 19:15:38 <ennael> also we have now candidates for the board 19:15:46 <marja> \o/ 19:15:54 <ennael> tmb: would you like to apply also ? 19:16:28 <tmb> yeah, well I'm been debating that with myself ... 19:16:34 <ennael> woot 19:16:43 <ennael> who is winning ? 19:16:59 <tmb> I havent really been doing a good job lately so I dont really know... 19:17:16 <ennael> well board was quite calm these last month anyway 19:17:39 <wilcal> how often does the board meet and when 19:17:54 <tmb> yeah, but that's the problem... we have stuff queued / to debate / decide and so on... 19:18:05 <ennael> we don't have regular meeting unfortunately 19:18:18 <wilcal> ahhhh that's a problem 19:18:19 <ennael> missing time also 19:18:30 <wilcal> Sorry gonna get American here 19:18:46 <wilcal> is there a head of the board of directors 19:18:56 <wilcal> someone in charge of the board 19:19:08 <SebthreeBQM10HD> ennael again probably :d 19:19:18 <ennael> SebthreeBQM10HD: who are you ? 19:19:23 <SebthreeBQM10HD> sebsebseb 19:19:26 <ennael> ah 19:19:27 <wilcal> you wanna do that again ennael? 19:19:48 <MrsB> Morning all 19:19:55 <wilcal> Morn'n MrsB 19:19:57 <wilcal> :-)) 19:20:04 <ennael> pb we had is the board was mainly 3 people 19:20:12 <ennael> most of them disappeared 19:20:22 <wilcal> Boards of Directors I think mean something very different to me 19:20:27 <ennael> so it's hard to take any decision and meeting 19:20:48 <ennael> so anyway we need to vote for the new one 19:20:49 <ennael> then 19:20:54 <wilcal> there's like 7 -> 10 people on the board 19:20:57 <wilcal> i think 19:21:00 <ennael> no 19:21:03 <ennael> not in real 19:21:12 <wilcal> so really only 3 active 19:21:21 <wilcal> with anne in charge 19:21:21 <marja> wilcal: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Org_Board#Current_board_.282014-2016.29 19:21:24 <ennael> not even active, existing :) 19:21:40 <SebthreeBQM10HD> indeed certain people have disappared or pretty much it seems 19:21:51 <wilcal> Ya I kinda saw all that 19:22:01 <Akien> Well the Board is just the legal entity being Mageia. It's meant to manage the funds of the association, and ensure that the good operation of the association. 19:22:08 <ennael> indeed 19:22:16 <Akien> The fact is, our association is just meant so that Mageia can get donations and have a legal presence. 19:22:21 <MrsB> represent mageia's core values 19:22:23 <wilcal> direction decisions? 19:22:31 <MrsB> resolve disputes etc 19:22:44 <Akien> Most of the time we don't really need the association itself to do stuff, the Council and various teams can handle themselves. 19:22:57 <tmb> Well I guess I can keep going so we get enough people to keep Mageia going :) 19:23:03 <MrsB> decisions affecting those core values. The day to day running of stuff is down to the council 19:23:05 <Akien> And yeah as MrsB says, the Board is there to solve conflicts and take the decisions that the community can't/doesn't manage to take. 19:23:08 <marja> tmb: :-) 19:23:09 <wilcal> Has the Board dictated that there will be an ARM version of Mageia or is that happenstance 19:23:18 <ennael> no as other said 19:23:26 <Akien> wilcal: Well... You know how Mageia runs. 19:23:30 <ennael> all the operational decisions come from council 19:23:33 <SebthreeBQM10HD> well treasuer is needed at least, and I guess secratery whatever that is, but mostly board isn't really used for much I guess 19:23:33 <wilcal> I have sooooo many stories of Boards of Directors 19:23:35 <Akien> The "Board" does not dictate anything. 19:23:39 <Akien> We're not a company :) 19:23:52 <ennael> and I guess it's better like that 19:23:53 <wilcal> Ya that's what I thought Akien 19:23:59 <Akien> If the Board dictates stuff without ensuring it's what the community wants, it kills Mageia 19:24:03 <SebthreeBQM10HD> tmb, yep you woudn't have to do much in the board it seems :D 19:24:07 <wilcal> Is that the way we want it, toothless 19:24:10 <marja> Akien: indeed 19:24:43 <SebthreeBQM10HD> what are the 7 or 9 positions anyway ? 19:24:54 <Akien> Most of the time we've let the Council take the decisions, and only go through the Board if deemed really necessary. But our workflow is bottom-up, we can't do top-down (and shouldn't) 19:25:07 <ennael> the needed positions are president, treasurer and secretary 19:25:09 <MrsB> it's not toothless wilcal, just represents mageia's core values rather than acting as a steering committee. That's what the council does. 19:25:15 <ennael> we could even work without it 19:25:36 <SebthreeBQM10HD> ok so three people get those positins, but the others are just on the board hten without a proper position ? 19:26:01 <ennael> there is no hierarchy SebthreeBQM10HD 19:26:06 <grenoya> SebthreeBQM10HD: yes, or can be adjoint to the 3 others 19:26:10 <wilcal> So randomly held meetings 19:26:25 <SebthreeBQM10HD> seems people can put them selves forward to be on the board, without doing anything or anything much at all 19:26:37 <grenoya> the french law ask only for 1 meeting per year 19:26:39 <Akien> It's for the Board to decide once elected I think, but I think we should try to have backups for the treasurer and secretary 19:26:50 <tmb> wilcal, the bard is noth toothless, but we run mageia as a community distribution so we try keep as much decisions at council level.... board only step in if council cant resolve the issues / decisions 19:27:04 <SebthreeBQM10HD> grenoya, I quite liked a sentance in your board proposal email by the way :d h eh 19:27:04 <wilcal> FWIW I was on a Board of Directors once where the Chairman brought a whip with him and put it on the table 19:27:05 <MrsB> yes ^^ 19:27:05 <grenoya> Akien: true, the 3 are elected inside the board 19:27:56 <Akien> wilcal: Well ennael has matches, but apart from that, I don't think it's the atmosphere. 19:28:38 <wilcal> So the Council is really the center of management power for Mageia 19:28:52 <ennael> yes 19:28:52 <grenoya> yes 19:28:58 <ennael> and boad for the legal side 19:29:05 <tmb> wilcal, thats the way we want it 19:29:05 * SebthreeBQM10HD thought about maybe putting forward for a board position, but then thought no probably not actsually since.... 19:29:10 <wilcal> If everyone is comfortable with that I'm ok with it 19:29:24 <MrsB> yes. It's a communnity. The teams lead. The team leaders form the council 19:29:37 <wilcal> problem is if a major decision comes up then that becomes more of a Board Decision 19:29:41 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yeah the board is really just counciol members anyway :d or association if not 19:30:07 <DavidWHodgins> Sorry I'm late 19:30:12 <Akien> SebthreeBQM10HD: This is a meeting for the elected council members, so please try not to occupy 20% of the conversation, thanks :) 19:30:15 <MrsB> dude :) 19:30:24 <Akien> Hi DavidWHodgins 19:30:25 <wilcal> Most of the time here members of the Board of Director is not active daily in the company and may in fact work for a different company 19:30:33 <marja> DavidWHodgins: :-) 19:30:42 <DavidWHodgins> I volunteer to continue on the board. My msg to the assoc list was refused 19:30:52 <wilcal> Good for you David :-)) 19:31:04 <grenoya> DavidWHodgins: then we have a problem with this list :/ 19:31:08 <Akien> DavidWHodgins: I received it 19:31:11 <MrsB> i got it dave 19:31:17 <ennael> sorry pb with connection 19:31:21 <Akien> It's just one of the new association members which has a bad email registered 19:31:35 <MrsB> one assocition email bounced 19:31:37 <MrsB> yep 19:32:04 <wilcal> Are there any outstanding decisions that are not being addressed by the Board 19:32:10 <DavidWHodgins> Ah. Only a bounce from g.chaudun at orange.fr 19:32:59 <DavidWHodgins> The board has even fewer meetings than the council. I don't remember when the last one was that actually did anything other then discuss organization. 19:33:17 <Akien> wilcal: s/Board/Council/ ? Basically there are as many Board decisions as you have seen emails stating "The Board decided <something>", i.e. many once or twice a year ) 19:33:29 <Akien> The idea is to make the Board more able to take decisions though 19:33:55 <wilcal> FWIW i struggled with volunteering. But my midset may not be a good fit for the Mageia Board 19:34:08 <Akien> Recently with the questions from AlexL about promoting his commercial venture, most of the discussions had to happen at the Council level while the decision should have typically be a Board one (in accordance with the Council, most likely) 19:34:36 <Akien> With 9 members we should be able to have better discussions about such topics. 19:34:50 <DavidWHodgins> I think all of the board members are also council members, so the vote would likely have been the same. 19:35:15 <DavidWHodgins> There is a lot of overlap 19:35:27 <SebthreeBQM10HD> the board has been rarely used, and most important decisions just done on the council yep. and rarely been an important enough decision to just do it on the board I think. and this is probably my last comment in this meeting subject :) 19:35:30 <marja> DavidWHodgins: a lot of overlap, but not full overlap 19:35:34 <grenoya> DavidWHodgins: not necesarily as board is elected inside the association members who can be former council members 19:35:54 <wilcal> Some Boards are really only rubber stamps for an Owner/Dictator 19:36:12 <papoteur> DavidWHodgins: the board members are not mandatory in council. 19:36:14 <MrsB> that's company, we're community wilcal 19:36:21 <marja> wilcal: I don't think all Board members should have the same mindset 19:36:49 <wilcal> ya and I've been involved with Boards so much and seen so much 19:36:55 <marja> wilcal: as long as you don't think Mga is a company, you should be fine ;-) 19:37:33 <Akien> wilcal: I think you might just want to replace the word Board by another one. It's clearly not related to a Board of Directors as seen in American companies. 19:37:46 <wilcal> Well you all kinda see the way I think 19:38:01 <Akien> It's about non-profit associations as per the French law, which are very widespread and need to have such a "board"/"bureau" that legally represents the association. 19:38:01 <wilcal> Do you have 9 volunteers right now 19:38:37 <tmb> by a quick count we have 7 volunteers now 19:38:42 <marja> I think so, if I don't miscount 19:38:48 <wilcal> Do you absolutely need 9 19:38:54 <ennael> no 19:39:02 <ennael> seems to be 8 19:39:09 <ennael> but we planned 7 to 9 19:39:12 <wilcal> ok anne you get to decide if 7 or 8 is enough for now 19:39:19 <MrsB> well, perhaps a business mind on the board would help us attract more businesses to join the community wilcal 19:39:28 <Akien> I count 8 yes 19:39:42 <ennael> ok so the process now 19:39:43 <wilcal> I could be the quite gorilla in the corner if needed 19:39:53 <ennael> I will configure epoll for the vote 19:40:03 <ennael> then every assocation member will be able to vote 19:40:05 <papoteur> wil o/ 19:40:10 <MrsB> if you do intend to candidate you need to speak now 19:40:20 <ennael> no please mail association ML 19:40:29 <MrsB> yes that :) ^^ 19:40:46 * SebthreeBQM10HD could candidate, but what's the point really :d 19:40:53 <wilcal> well put me in there and I'll help with the potential business stuff if needed 19:41:04 <DavidWHodgins> Is there any point in a vote if there are fewer candidates than positions? 19:41:10 <wilcal> I've kinda done that in the past anyway 19:41:25 <ennael> wilcal: please mail 19:41:41 <MrsB> reply to the emails on association-members@group wilcal 19:41:46 <ennael> any other question about board election ? 19:41:56 <tmb> DavidWHodgins, a vote must be held according to statues / earlier decisions 19:41:57 <Akien> DavidWHodgins: For the Board it's important I think, as it's a legal entity 19:42:08 <DavidWHodgins> Ok 19:42:14 <grenoya> indeed 19:42:21 <Akien> And it gives something to do to the association members for once :p 19:42:26 <grenoya> :)) 19:42:38 <ennael> any other question ? 19:42:50 <stormi> when do we drink beer? 19:43:01 <MrsB> constantly? 19:43:05 <ennael> that's a good one :) 19:43:07 <wilcal> ok i sent a respose with my name 19:43:28 <ennael> ok quick sum up about bank account while we speak about organization 19:43:32 <tmb> meh, you can go to france and drink some water... they ave a lot of it :) 19:43:37 <wilcal> So many Boards are for free trips to Ski Resorts 19:43:38 <ennael> :) 19:43:55 <grenoya> tmb: :) 19:44:10 <ennael> so I have to go to the police because of the pb we had 19:44:21 <ennael> but I fear we will have to change account 19:44:45 <ennael> then we will have to setup a secure solution 19:44:58 <ennael> I'm waiting for technical details about the bank proposed me last time 19:45:03 <ennael> I'll let you know 19:45:32 <marja> ennael: thx for handling it (that isn't a fun job :-( ) 19:45:32 <MrsB> that would solve the problem. It's all supposed to be quite easy now. 19:46:49 <ennael> so again do not publish mageia iban :) 19:47:17 <DavidWHodgins> Have to make sure more than one person knows the number though, just in case. 19:47:35 <ennael> yep 19:47:37 <marja> ennael: is there a solution for people who don't want to use paypal and don't have a credit card? 19:48:00 <ennael> that's waht we have to check 19:48:00 <marja> ennael: other then sending cash in an envelope? 19:48:05 <ennael> no way :) 19:48:10 <marja> s/then/than/ 19:48:12 <marja> :-) 19:48:13 <MrsB> it's a shame we have to take action so their insecure system can carry on without the proper checks actually having to happen 19:48:17 <papoteur> DavidWHodgins: the question is not to know the count number, but to have a decisioin that thiis person can manage the count 19:48:18 <marja> ennael: pigeon post ;-) 19:48:19 <Akien> I could handle the cash :o) 19:48:46 <ennael> anything else about organization? 19:49:15 <marja> not here 19:49:25 <Akien> Just about team elections 19:49:42 <Akien> In the dev team we're still lagging behind, so ennael and I are still co-leader as per the previous elections 19:50:11 <ennael> indeed. I'd like to have 12h more per day :/ 19:50:11 * MrsB gets the naughty chair 19:50:15 <Akien> But with the release hell, I think it's best if we postpone the dev team elections, and make them in a context of a more global reflection on how the dev team should go forward 19:50:16 <papoteur> Akien: do you mean to organize some elections ? 19:51:14 <papoteur> Akien: Ok ;) 19:51:18 <Akien> My main idea being that we might think about a better organization of the work for the packaging and dev parts (dev being the development of our own tools, which is quite different to packaging) 19:51:59 <Akien> But all this needs to be discussed with the dev team so that we can find the structure that helps us be efficient 19:52:08 <Akien> And then the "new" leadership should come from there IMO 19:52:27 <MrsB> we kind of decided to do that already, needs the reviewboard in place & etc tho 19:52:50 <leuhmanu> I saw iban in the source of web page on git, should it be removed ? 19:52:55 <Akien> So if ennael agrees, I guess we're asking for the permission to stay as co-leaders until we organise interesting discussions and elections after the mga6 release 19:53:20 <ennael> yep then we will be able to drink together :) 19:53:21 <DavidWHodgins> Ok by me 19:53:25 <grenoya> leuhmanu: good point! yes it would be better 19:53:29 <ennael> leuhmanu: yep 19:53:36 <Akien> leuhmanu: I removed it already, but it's still in the git history of course 19:53:45 <ennael> maybe a filter-branch or something like this to clean the source 19:53:52 <Akien> (I _think_ I removed it at least) 19:54:07 <leuhmanu> Akien: I saw it somewhere else (dodn't remember right now) 19:54:07 <Akien> We need some coling magic then :) 19:54:12 <MrsB> no objection, it makes sense to maintain stability right now. As long as the team is ok with it. 19:54:39 <Schultz_> seems sensible to me 19:55:31 <DavidWHodgins> Probably easier to ask, "Does anyone object?". 19:55:38 <Akien> Yeah :) 19:56:23 <marja> no objection 19:56:33 <wilcal> "yep then we will be able to drink together" I know some places in Amsterdam :-)) 19:56:59 <tmb> no objection 19:56:59 <wilcal> no objection here 19:57:02 <marja> wilcal: ah, nice that you'll be coming this way again 19:57:11 <grenoya> no objection 19:57:20 <Akien> Other teams still need to update https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Org_Council#2016.27s_list btw 19:57:22 <wilcal> think'n about it for FOSDEM next year 19:57:37 <Akien> Sysadmins, i18n, security 19:57:41 <marja> wilcal: \o/ 19:57:52 <ennael> do we have php coders around ? 19:57:54 <Akien> (and local communities, but I'm not even sure this really ended up being a team) 19:58:10 <marja> maat: ennael is looking for a php coder 19:58:42 <ennael> if so it should not be complicated to integrate the bank solution 19:59:09 <ennael> it can use PHP, ASPX, ASP, Python, Java, RUBY eand C 19:59:14 <papoteur> filip__: ^^^ 19:59:19 <grenoya> ennael: filip__ should be able to help I guess 19:59:38 <MrsB> they sometimes have plugins for various shopping carts/cms 19:59:50 <ennael> ok so let see that later :) 20:00:06 <Akien> I guess between filip__, stormi, leuhmanu and Co we'll find someone who can help :) 20:00:23 <Akien> Put it on Stormi's schedule for his next Mageia Monday :p 20:00:33 <marja> lol 20:00:52 <stormi> 4 month from now :) 20:01:04 <MrsB> about time we sent him something to do 20:01:34 <stormi> Don't feel compelled to :) 20:01:37 <ennael> anything else about that topic ? 20:01:39 <MrsB> :D 20:01:49 <Akien> Not from me 20:01:53 <papoteur> no 20:01:54 <tmb> nope 20:01:57 <DavidWHodgins> Not here 20:01:57 <marja> no 20:02:07 <wilcal> not from me 20:02:11 <MrsB> nope 20:02:21 <grenoya> no 20:03:10 <ennael> #topic KDE mail about advisory council 20:04:00 <papoteur> I find this invitation positive 20:04:08 <ennael> have you all read the mail? 20:04:09 <DavidWHodgins> The links in the message fail to load here 20:04:39 <wilcal> Will there be one person or more then one Mageia person to represent 20:04:39 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yes seems like a nice idea for Mageia :) but just a reminder :d, Mageia is a cross desktop Linux distro, not just KDE :) 20:04:57 <wilcal> I think this is an important move 20:05:08 <ennael> SebthreeBQM10HD: I don't see the point here 20:05:17 <ennael> this is a proposal for one of our DE 20:05:20 <DavidWHodgins> Ah. The links fail in opera, but work in firefox 20:05:21 <papoteur> wilcal: for who 20:05:26 <papoteur> ? 20:05:42 <ennael> a way to recognise mageia in upstream projects 20:05:49 <ennael> and KDE is not a small one :) 20:05:50 <Schultz_> Yeah this has nothing to do with cross distro or not, its just a great chance to get involved in an excellent project 20:05:54 <wilcal> Ya so one Mageia person is our official representative at KDE right 20:06:32 <ennael> if you are all ok then we will accept. I will check how many people will be implied but neoclust should be one of them 20:06:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> it sounds good 20:06:51 <wilcal> sounds great 20:06:59 <filip__> ennael: I guess I can help with integration of the bank solution 20:07:00 <SebthreeBQM10HD> working with upstream is generally good sure :) 20:07:11 <Schultz_> Huge yes from me, for both accepting and for Neoclust 20:07:24 <ennael> can we vote for this? 20:07:31 <DavidWHodgins> I'm in favour 20:07:32 <ennael> say OK nor NO OK 20:07:34 <stormi> OK 20:07:34 <marja> just a sec 20:07:35 <tmb> ennael, does neoclust accept that too, or do you only tell him to do so :) 20:07:37 <wilcal> I'm a yes 20:07:37 <Latte> OK 20:07:39 <MrsB> It sounds great and a good opportunity. There may be fees involved though 20:07:41 <marja> does it cost money? 20:07:42 <papoteur> OK, of course 20:07:49 <SebthreeBQM10HD> my vote probably doesn't count here now, but I'll say yes anyway 20:07:49 <Akien> tmb: It's a Board decision, he should do it :p 20:07:59 <ennael> tmb: matches power :) 20:08:01 <DavidWHodgins> :-) 20:08:04 <MrsB> Patrons seem expected to pay a yearly membership 20:08:12 <lebarhon> OK but I can't find this e-mail :( 20:08:16 <grenoya> OK 20:08:37 <tmb> yeah, they want us to join as patrons so it's a fee ... 20:08:52 <marja> lebarhon: https://ev.kde.org/advisoryboard.php and https://ev.kde.org/getinvolved/supporting-members.php 20:08:53 <[mbot> [ KDE e.V. - Advisory Board ] 20:08:54 <DavidWHodgins> lebarhon: It was forwarded to the council list just before the msg about this meeting 20:08:59 <maat> hi 20:09:18 <MrsB> hmm but it does say that it's either by fee or by invitation, so I guess this is by invitation. We should check first IMHO 20:09:22 <SebthreeBQM10HD> oh for a fee hmm, but at least Mageia would be more recognised as being good for KDE then 20:09:25 <maat> <marja> maat: ennael is looking for a php coder ?? 20:09:35 <lebarhon> marja: thx 20:09:54 <wilcal> €100 for Neoclust? 20:10:07 <MrsB> "Organizations can join the Advisory board either by becoming a KDE e.V. Patron or by an explicit invitation by the KDE e.V. Board. " 20:10:10 <lebarhon> DavidWHodgins: I didn't subscribe to the council list 20:10:19 <marja> maat: yep, are you available? 20:10:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> weren't we explicitly invited? 20:10:31 <wilcal> paid for by Mageia sounds good to me 20:10:32 <SebthreeBQM10HD> I thought it was a expicit invitation, but should check that yes 20:10:39 <papoteur> Pharaoh_Atem: sure 20:10:47 <maat> marja: yep sorry i could'nt be available sooner 20:10:48 <Akien> I don't think this is about these "Supporting members" 20:11:08 <ennael> well it looks like it would cost 5 000€... 20:11:10 <ennael> damned 20:11:17 <Akien> But yeah I think we should check with them that it's a proper invitation (for free) 20:11:19 <ennael> per year 20:11:24 <ennael> yep 20:11:26 <tmb> I'd rather not ok it before knowing if the fee is "mandatory" or not 20:11:31 <papoteur> Even if we have to pay something, I think we can assume that. 20:11:45 <ennael> papoteur: depending ont the amount... 20:11:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> regardless of whether we have to pay or not, we should have clarity on the terms 20:11:50 <DavidWHodgins> I agree with tmb. I didn't notice anything about a fee 20:11:59 <papoteur> ennael: ;) 20:12:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> but afaik, it looks like it should be free for us 20:12:08 <Pharaoh_Atem> since we were invited 20:12:19 <MrsB> It sounds like this counts as "by explicit invitation" so the fee is maybe reserved for corporate members 20:12:20 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: That's how I understand it too, but indeed better check first :) 20:12:21 <SebthreeBQM10HD> Pharaoh_Atem, that's what I Thought to, but still should check 20:12:33 <Schultz_> I'm good with it, even with a fee up to a point, but 5,000 is far too much for a community like ours 20:12:43 <marja> maat: we had problems with the bank, they have a solution that requires php (or some other languages) ..... if you have time to help with the implementation, tell ennael :-) 20:12:44 <Akien> That's for sure 20:13:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> if it was like €25-€100, that's not too bad 20:13:15 <Pharaoh_Atem> but my understanding is that it should be €0 20:14:22 <Schultz_> Similar for me, but we should wait until we know for certain. 20:14:46 <papoteur> OK. ennael, do you mean ask for clarity? If it's for 0€, should be OK. 20:14:52 <ennael> so ok on the idea but let's wait for more information about fees 20:15:10 <Schultz_> I read the forwarded email as more them wondering if we would be interested and opening dialogue, so I guess it would be expected that we would discuss the details with them more first 20:16:04 <MrsB> Yes. Is this an "explicit ivitation" or just an invitation to become a fee paying patron 20:16:53 <Schultz_> ooking at the fee paying patrons that they have, I don't see how we can be expected to be in a list with Google and Suse 20:17:18 <ennael> ok I'll let you know then 20:17:26 <SebthreeBQM10HD> its probably a free invite, but got to find out more yep 20:17:26 <ennael> anything else on that topic ? 20:17:32 <MrsB> thanks ennael 20:17:45 <papoteur> no 20:17:48 <Schultz_> No, seems good to me 20:17:54 <wilcal> good to go 20:17:56 <DavidWHodgins> Nothing else here 20:18:08 <grenoya> nope 20:18:10 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm good here 20:18:13 <ennael> ok 20:18:19 <ennael> #topic Mageia 6 sta1 20:18:33 <ennael> here comes the fun part :) 20:18:39 <wilcal> :-) 20:18:41 <papoteur> yes ! 20:18:45 <Pharaoh_Atem> best topic :) 20:18:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> 10/10 20:18:50 <marja> :o) 20:18:52 <MrsB> it's broken 20:19:01 <Pharaoh_Atem> :'( 20:19:04 <wilcal> only real decison to be made June of Sept/Oct 20:19:15 <wilcal> June or Sept/Oct 20:19:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'd rather it not slip to Sept/Oct 20:19:35 <wilcal> too many broken things 20:19:35 <SebthreeBQM10HD> well Mageia 6 final is dfefinetly not coming out in June :d I guess? 20:19:47 <ennael> ok so what blocks current sta1 is about grub 20:19:57 <Pharaoh_Atem> is grub the only broken thing? 20:20:05 <wilcal> no 20:20:09 <Pharaoh_Atem> what else? 20:20:12 <wilcal> lots of stuff in KDE 20:20:14 <ennael> one of the more visible at least 20:20:16 <wilcal> Plasma 20:20:27 <MrsB> Perhaps it's time we thought about dropping grub 20:20:30 <tmb> wilcal, first we get -sta1 out, look on how it looks, then figure out timeline... 20:20:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> grub1 should probably be dropped by now 20:20:44 <SebthreeBQM10HD> dropping Grub??? distros need a boot loader 20:20:46 <wilcal> i agree tmb 20:20:48 <ennael> tmb: yes sounds good 20:20:52 <wilcal> drop grub 1 20:20:53 <SebthreeBQM10HD> oh the old grub 20:20:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> SebthreeBQM10HD: we'd have grub2 20:21:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> grub-legacy should be killed without prejudice 20:21:15 <Pharaoh_Atem> err with prejudice 20:21:16 <DavidWHodgins> I use grub legacy. I don't want an os for a boot loader 20:21:35 <Pharaoh_Atem> but the problem is that grub legacy is unmaintained 20:21:43 <SebthreeBQM10HD> most distros have dropped Grub 1, and do Grub 2 20:21:44 <wilcal> ahhhh 20:21:51 <ennael> DavidWHodgins: unless you can maintain it we will drop it 20:21:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> unless we have people who actually can develop grub legacy, we're kind of SOL 20:22:02 <DavidWHodgins> Ouch 20:22:10 <MrsB> we've always resisted moving to grub2 but perhaps if it's simply not working with new "stuff" then it's time to think seriously about whather we can support it ourselves 20:22:20 <DavidWHodgins> Can we bring back lilo? :) 20:22:22 <tmb> the problem is that grub2 is insanely bloated compared to grub legacy, so we will have to go with grub2 for now... 20:22:35 <SebthreeBQM10HD> Pharaoh_Atem, yeah apparantly the last Grub 1 versibon 0.97??? was just a hacked version or something like that by distros, not really maintained upstream so 20:22:47 <tmb> *but we dont have an alternative now,so...* 20:23:19 <DavidWHodgins> If we have to, just have to make sure we warn people clearly. 20:23:24 <MrsB> it's one less thing to fit on the dvd 20:23:32 <DavidWHodgins> True 20:23:44 <SebthreeBQM10HD> Grub 1 can go sure, but as long as Grub 2 works well enough and that's with BIOS and EFI systems hmm 20:24:06 <DavidWHodgins> grub2 is currently the only option for efi systems 20:24:13 <Pharaoh_Atem> grub2 can be set up pretty minimally if we want to 20:24:14 <tmb> so the suggestion for mga6 is to not provide grub leacy as option in installer, but still keep it on repos so people upgrading are not forced to switch bootloader yet 20:24:29 <Pharaoh_Atem> but wouldn't grub legacy break upon upgrade? 20:24:35 <papoteur> It's the first time we propose to drop grub1. Is the decision to take tonight? 20:24:40 <Pharaoh_Atem> yes 20:24:42 <tmb> then add in release notes it's deprecated and will be removed in mga7 20:24:52 <ennael> sounds reasonable 20:24:55 <DavidWHodgins> That sounds ok to me 20:25:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm good with that 20:25:01 <wilcal> ok with me 20:25:08 <SebthreeBQM10HD> if it's in repos should be ok on upgrade? 20:25:09 <MrsB> it seems to work well enough. Could do with prettifying a bit maybe, but I think we're one of the few remaining users of legacy grub. I'm in favour of dropping it. 20:25:15 <Schultz_> sounds sensible about dropping off media, gives time to prepare and such 20:25:20 <marja> Pharaoh_Atem: good question.... but upgrading will be tested, too 20:25:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> do we have conversion scripts for grub legacy to grub2? 20:25:39 <tmb> Pharaoh_Atem, nope, the breakage comes from e2fstools 1.43 activating new features on newly formatted disks, it does not change already formatted ones 20:25:39 <SebthreeBQM10HD> MrsB, indeed most distros have long moved away from Grub legacy 20:25:51 <SebthreeBQM10HD> altough it's nice enough when it works 20:25:57 <Pharaoh_Atem> tmb: ah, then we should be okay, hopefully 20:26:08 <maat> <marja> maat: we had problems with the bank [...] tell ennael :-) <-- ok send me details by mail and i'll tell you if i can help 20:26:20 <marja> maat: ok 20:26:32 <tmb> and technically it would work for ever with separate /boot :) 20:27:07 <SebthreeBQM10HD> the installer could make a seperate /boot on install :D or to much work for little gain to implement etc etc 20:27:08 <Pharaoh_Atem> we should probably provide a path for upgrading from grub legacy though 20:27:35 <MrsB> it more or less happens automatically with os-prober 20:27:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> and moving to grub2 also makes it possible to do fun things in the future (like booting to btrfs snapshots) 20:28:14 * SebthreeBQM10HD wonders what the issue is with Grub legacy since hasn't been following that, 20:28:16 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm not sure what the state of that feature is in upstream grub2, but I know the suse guys have patches for it 20:28:28 <Pharaoh_Atem> SebthreeBQM10HD: grub legacy has been unmaintained for the better part of the decade 20:28:45 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yes I know that but how is is now broken in Mageia dev 20:28:45 <Pharaoh_Atem> the grub devs were focusing on PUPA, which became GRUB 2 20:29:02 <papoteur> SebthreeBQM10HD: we get error 14 after new installation. And no go. 20:29:09 <SebthreeBQM10HD> oh 20:29:18 <tmb> yeah, we should atleast document how to migrate grub -> grub2 ... 20:29:29 <SebthreeBQM10HD> don't know what erorr 14 is but I Guess it means won't boot basically 20:29:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> SebthreeBQM10HD: it's unrecognizable boot volume 20:29:48 <SebthreeBQM10HD> ok 20:29:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> basically, it can't parse the partition 20:30:11 <SebthreeBQM10HD> tmb, yes 20:30:12 <tmb> grub error 14 comes from it does not properly read the 64bit parts of ext4 20:30:31 <SebthreeBQM10HD> oh 20:30:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> ext4 support in grub legacy was always kind of hokey, imo 20:31:19 <Pharaoh_Atem> but I think we should finally start the process to kill it off, so that we can move to grub2 20:31:20 <tmb> there are some 64bit support in grub legacy, but it's a "on/off switch" so fliping it on breaks backwards compat.. 20:31:27 <MrsB> it should be quite straight forward really. It won't involve efi as old grub doesn't support it, so the upgrade path should be pretty similar for everybody 20:31:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> MrsB: so why not just upgrade it as part of the mga5->mga6 upgrade? 20:32:01 <MrsB> that's what will happen 20:32:14 <SebthreeBQM10HD> that has to go bang on right though, or people won't be ablle to boot up OSes ? 20:32:19 <tmb> yeah, tv will switch stage2 to default to grub2 20:32:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> so we'll also move from grub to grub2 on upgrades 20:32:42 <SebthreeBQM10HD> so then the question is to leave it in the repos of Mageia 7 or drop from the repos as well 20:32:54 <MrsB> drak tools may need tweaking along the way 20:32:56 <tmb> nope, lets not force it on people 20:32:57 <DavidWHodgins> MrsB: Pharaoh_Atem is saying change it on upgrades. I don't like that idea, if we still have it available for Mageia 6. 20:33:12 <MrsB> we won't thought Dave. It won't work 20:33:25 <MrsB> that's the whole reason for this 20:34:27 <DavidWHodgins> Changing it on upgrade from Mageia 6 to 7 is ok by me. Not from 5 to 6. 20:34:28 <tmb> MrsB, grub legacy will work in upgrades, it's new installs it chokes on 20:34:40 <MrsB> oh ok, didn't realise that 20:34:57 <Pharaoh_Atem> we *will* need to drop it for mga7 entirely 20:35:08 <Pharaoh_Atem> so an upgrade path from grub to grub2 needs to start being thought about 20:35:39 <MrsB> stage2 will still need to support grub1 & grub2 then, but remove grub1 option on new installs 20:35:50 <tmb> Yeah, the idea is to focus on droping grub lagacy as soon as cauldron re-opens post mga6 20:36:27 <tmb> MrsB, yep, we'll hide the grub legacy option in installer.. 20:36:46 <MrsB> it'll still need to be shown for upgrades though 20:37:15 <Schultz_> it was already unavailable on the boot.iso install I did a few days ago 20:37:21 <MrsB> can be hidden entirely on live isos 20:38:09 <tmb> MrsB, yeah, but drakx already have support for that part as it sets a "is_upgrade" flag which we can filtter on for hiding or not 20:38:23 <Pharaoh_Atem> can we give people a conversion option during drakx upgrades? 20:38:44 <MrsB> we can still default to grub2 on upgrades, but retain support forgrub1 also 20:39:01 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'd definitely prefer that 20:39:31 <tmb> But yeah, I can try switching grub2 as default on live medias 20:39:37 <SebthreeBQM10HD> but changing from grub 1 that works before upgrade, to a grub 2 that didn't install right on upgrade possibly, could be hmm 20:40:54 <SebthreeBQM10HD> it has to work! or people will be like ah! 20:41:26 <MrsB> nice of you to volunteer for testing SebthreeBQM10HD 20:41:40 <SebthreeBQM10HD> MrsB, maybe in a vm :d 20:42:00 <ennael> ok so when this is ok we will be able to rebuild isos 20:42:35 <tmb> well, it means more work for QA to ensure it works in whatever setup grub lagacy is running on to grub2 20:43:30 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yep 20:43:51 <MrsB> there is no real way to avoid that. We will need to ask the community to test the new feature 20:44:16 <MrsB> please no kernels at iso time though :P 20:44:20 <ennael> :) 20:44:39 <marja> tmb: whatever? There are people who chainload into 10 installs from different OSs and/or distros 20:44:43 <tmb> Hm, does even bootloader setup get shown on upgrades ? 20:45:25 <tmb> I haven't done a iso upgrade in a long time, only urpmi... 20:45:34 <SebthreeBQM10HD> tmb, good point, I think maybe at the very end, but not sure 20:45:55 <MrsB> it does IIRC. we haven't begun upgrade testing yet and I'm getting too old to remember last year :D 20:46:11 <Schultz_> if your chaining 10 OSs, then you can read the release notes... 20:46:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> haha 20:46:16 <Pharaoh_Atem> yes 20:46:29 <wilcal> we're not anywhere near upgrade testing 20:46:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> if you're doing lots of multi-boot, you're either using grub2 already, or you're going to need to redo everything 20:46:46 <SebthreeBQM10HD> h eh yeah 20:46:57 <tmb> marja, well grub leagacy could be set up on a raid install wich in not sure grub2 will properly handle and so on... 20:47:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> grub2 handles raid just fine 20:47:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> the latest grub 2.02 handles lvm boot too, I believe 20:47:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> the only feature I'm unsure of is the btrfs subvolume and boot to snapshot features 20:47:36 <tmb> Pharaoh_Atem, I mean it _must_ handle the conversion without breaking... 20:47:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> ah 20:47:45 <MrsB> openqa would be useful to test thi skind of thing.. 20:47:45 <marja> tmb: ok, I agree with that 20:47:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> MrsB: yes, most def 20:47:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> that's what it's for :) 20:47:58 * MrsB hint 20:48:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm hoping that I can now start testing distro sync and system upgrade capabilities with DNF, which should hopefully help with the overall upgrade testing process 20:49:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> since I have now pushed new default configs for that 20:49:34 <Pharaoh_Atem> for the first time in a long time, I need to set up some mga5 stuff to do testing :) 20:52:34 <SebthreeBQM10HD> h eh whols still awake :d 20:52:35 <tmb> anyway, as soon as tv fixes the missing stage2 changes, we can rebuild hopefully final -sta1 isos (have you heard that one before...) 20:52:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> heh 20:52:55 <Pharaoh_Atem> do we have a package list of what's going to be on -sta1? 20:53:02 <wilcal> I think a few here are falling asleep :-)) 20:53:28 <DavidWHodgins> Still here 20:53:33 <MrsB> Let's move on then. Was there anything else for tonight ennael? 20:53:52 <tmb> Pharaoh_Atem, anything you want on them ? 20:54:04 <marja> dnf :-) 20:54:15 <Schultz_> :) 20:54:29 <Pharaoh_Atem> tmb: well, I'd like to see dnf, dnf-plugins-core, and the respective PackageKit frontends for the desktops on them 20:55:12 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'd like for there to be wider testing of DNF, now that we have some kind of basic config for them 20:55:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> and definitely the PackageKit changes, too 20:55:33 <tmb> Pharaoh_Atem, I think the packagekit parts are always on the isos as the DEs have deps on them... but the dnf packages need to be added 20:55:59 <tmb> (atleast the packagekit parts used to get pulled in) 20:56:02 <Pharaoh_Atem> after all, one or two people testing isn't quite enough, even though marja has been awesome on the feedback 20:56:26 <tmb> should we pull in manatools too or is that to early ? 20:56:45 <Pharaoh_Atem> we should probably talk to anaselli and ALI3N about that 20:56:49 <MrsB> is there room? 20:56:49 <tmb> problem of couse is that isos grow... 20:56:51 <Schultz_> It does for whats left of kde4, not sure on plasma though 20:58:09 <tmb> and we dont want to go beyond 4GB for CI , and tecnically Live isos should stay at 1GB (but they are already 1.5 and 1.8 GB) :) 20:58:12 <Pharaoh_Atem> DNF shouldn't be an enormous addition, since most of the underlying deps are already pulled in by PackageKit 20:58:23 <marja> tmb: manatools is broken atm (unless it was pushed in the last days) 20:58:51 <tmb> marja, ok, so wont add that for now then 20:59:27 <Pharaoh_Atem> hopefully I can make some time to work on dnfdragora too 20:59:47 <tmb> so that's all for now I guess befora everyone fall asleap 21:00:10 <DavidWHodgins> Nothing else here. 21:00:14 <wilcal> i'm done :-)) 21:00:16 <Pharaoh_Atem> nothing else really from me 21:00:18 <SebthreeBQM10HD> two hours or so meeting 21:00:19 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yeah 21:00:21 * tmb atleast need to get some sleep 21:00:32 <marja> tmb: sleep well :-) 21:00:36 <SebthreeBQM10HD> tmb, yeah your on the next day now I think 21:00:38 <MrsB> countdown? 21:00:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> rest easy tmb, I'll get back to poking you about MirrorBrain tomorrow :) 21:00:48 <ennael> so looks like the good time to close the meeting 21:01:04 <SebthreeBQM10HD> yep 21:01:26 <MrsB> Productive meeting. Thanks everybody :) 21:01:32 <wilcal> bye all 21:01:37 <marja> ennael: :) 21:01:38 <ennael> thanks all and have a good night 21:01:44 <Pharaoh_Atem> good night everyone 21:01:44 <ennael> and water... 21:01:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> :) 21:01:48 <marja> wilcal: bye 21:01:49 <lebarhon> Good night 21:01:50 <ennael> #endmeeting