19:08:38 <ennael> #startmeeting
19:08:38 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Tue Oct  6 19:08:38 2015 UTC.  The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:08:38 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:08:48 <ennael> hi all
19:08:57 <MrsB> morning :)
19:10:05 <ennael> sorry for not being a lot around these days. Was organizing a conference last week
19:10:08 <ennael> it's done now
19:10:21 <ennael> so we have 2 topics: teams and Mageia6
19:10:30 <ennael> any other topic to be added ?
19:10:40 <DavidWHodgins> Not here.
19:10:48 <schultz> no, looks good to me
19:11:02 <MrsB> don't think so atm, those are the most pressing
19:11:04 <ennael> oh yes one about servers
19:11:11 <ennael> let start with thjat one
19:11:24 <ennael> #topic renewing and upgrading Mageia servers
19:11:35 * ennael looking at tmb
19:11:37 <DavidWHodgins> Did we get a price estimate for new servers?
19:12:05 <MrsB> we discussed this last time too didn't we
19:12:10 <ennael> not for now
19:12:18 <ennael> waiting for information about this
19:12:46 <ennael> just wanted to check what we really need to get a price
19:12:56 <ennael> I'm missing specifications
19:13:47 <DavidWHodgins> Probably best to have two quotes. What we need, and what we'd like.
19:14:01 <ennael> well we have money really
19:14:12 <ennael> so I would say let's buy what we need really
19:14:15 <MrsB> better to future proof imho
19:14:27 <DavidWHodgins> Better to get more than what we really need, imho
19:14:36 * marja agrees
19:15:05 <MrsB> tmb an idea?
19:15:09 <MrsB> any*
19:15:18 <schultz> sounds good to me
19:16:03 <Akien> Yeah money is not the issue, it looks to me that the sysadmins are pretty busy lately and can't find the time to sit around a beer to discuss specs
19:16:12 <DavidWHodgins> Perhaps consider using some other data center, if we can get a good price, for network redundancy.
19:17:17 <tmb> sorry, I'm still getting up to speed after my accident... will post a suggestion later this week for the new server
19:17:26 <marja> tmb: thx
19:17:37 <ennael> thanks tmb
19:17:52 <ennael> maybe we can also use the specs we had for the last one we bought
19:17:58 <ennael> was a pretty good one
19:18:21 <marja> tmb: you were considering backing up our most important server parts on your home servers, correct?
19:18:45 <tmb> ennael, pretty much, but I want to review some cost vs performance gain on new hw now shipping
19:18:54 <ennael> ok
19:19:01 <ennael> no pb we will see then
19:19:06 <ennael> next topic ?
19:19:16 <MrsB> park that one , yes
19:19:22 <DavidWHodgins> Team reviews
19:19:24 <Stormi_> (Bandwith saving measure, direct connection instead of via ssh, so I'll be Stormi_ tonight)
19:19:35 <ennael> #topic teams review
19:20:01 <ennael> ok let start then :)
19:20:11 <ennael> #info QA team review
19:20:16 <MrsB> d'oh!
19:20:20 <ennael> :)
19:20:37 <MrsB> I've been struggling for time lately :(
19:20:46 <MrsB> sorry to the guys
19:21:12 <MrsB> We did bring our updates list down to 12 I think it was but it has slowly grown since
19:21:29 <wilcal> List is controllable for now
19:21:36 <MrsB> currently way up at 26 again :\
19:21:41 <MrsB> http://mageia.madb.org/tools/updates
19:21:42 <ennael> well done anyway
19:21:43 <[mbot> [ Mageia App Db - Current Update candidates ]
19:21:59 <MrsB> we'll begin validating with tests on one arch per release again to bring it down
19:22:59 <DavidWHodgins> Except for things like kernel-linux. That should be tested on both arches.
19:23:10 <MrsB> Luigi12 has been having some issues getting maintainers involved building security updates
19:23:11 <DavidWHodgins> s /linux/linus/
19:23:13 <Akien> BTW we've rarely had issues with updates testing only on one arch
19:23:30 <MrsB> yes, that's worth mentionign Akien
19:23:55 <Akien> And yes of course for important packages like kernel, drivers, etc., we test both arches several times anyway
19:23:56 <MrsB> If we do have an issue or two it may convince people to gt more involved
19:24:31 <MrsB> Could packagers meeting talk about sec updates please when you have it
19:24:55 <ennael> we should organize one next week
19:25:17 <MrsB> QA team has also submitted 2 feature proposals
19:25:21 <MrsB> between us
19:25:23 <ennael> could we think about organizing something like "howto manage sec update on packager side"
19:25:48 <MrsB> there is work in progress on sec team docs
19:26:02 <DavidWHodgins> We need a packagers security team, not just Luigi12_work.
19:26:38 <wilcal> Loss of Luigi would be a big problem for Mageia
19:26:39 <ennael> we need packagers to work on security update
19:26:42 <MrsB> yes, he's overloaded and ends up maintaining more than his fair share when we find issues
19:26:55 <ennael> so we will add it to the next meeting
19:27:05 <MrsB> k, kool :)
19:27:06 <ennael> I will check with him doc and things needed
19:27:33 <MrsB> he's doing some docs for the classes he teaches so will import tham when they're done - least I think that's the intention
19:27:38 <DavidWHodgins> It's not just updating packages, it's also monitoring security mailing lists, etc., to know when there is an update needed.
19:27:59 <MrsB> Luigi12_work: ping?
19:28:20 <Luigi12_work> hello
19:28:23 <MrsB> howdy
19:28:28 <MrsB> talking about you :)
19:28:35 <Luigi12_work> yes, I will hopefully start writing in a few weeks
19:28:46 <Luigi12_work> have to get through teaching my next class next week and the week after first
19:29:14 <Luigi12_work> my paper on this is due mid-November, so I can't delay too much anyway
19:29:48 <MrsB> docs should help with contributions
19:30:15 <Luigi12_work> hopefully
19:30:33 <MrsB> That's about it from me i think
19:30:41 <MrsB> anything to add guys?
19:30:42 <ennael> ok thanks !
19:30:53 <DavidWHodgins> Nothing to add here.
19:31:06 <wilcal> not from me
19:31:19 * MrsB drops the mike
19:31:44 <ennael> docteam?
19:32:23 <ennael> i18n?
19:32:45 <MrsB> marja papoteur Latte
19:32:55 <marja> ennael: docteam needs to wake up and restart having meetings
19:33:57 <ennael> #info docteam
19:34:07 <papoteur> marja: Yes, marja is right. I think to have more time to animate a little it;
19:34:09 <ennael> any plan for coming release?
19:34:15 <Latte> i18n is nothing much to say
19:35:09 <papoteur> I will to suggest if we need/can enlarge the official documentation.
19:35:15 <marja> we should probably change the help page about keyboards in installer, lebarhon's feature proposal made me aware that many users panic over the keyboard choice screen
19:35:49 <papoteur> I think to Live installation, and preparation before installation.
19:36:07 <marja> and the current help text for the keyboard choice screen is too alarming
19:37:02 <marja> papoteur: docteam meeting two days from now? (Thursday)
19:37:10 <marja> papoteur: or next week?
19:37:24 <papoteur> It's OK for me this week.
19:37:50 <marja> ok.... you're the leader, do you mind sending the invitation to the list? ;-)
19:38:01 <papoteur> marja: Yes
19:38:12 <ennael> great
19:38:15 <ennael> anything else?
19:38:29 <marja> not from me
19:38:31 <papoteur> No
19:38:39 <ennael> thanks
19:38:41 <Latte> in the i18n we have a 'new' team
19:38:43 <Akien> For i18n not much to say indeed, apart from a new Persian translation team that just got created :)
19:38:50 <ennael> #topic i18n team
19:39:03 <Akien> See above ^ :)
19:39:14 <ennael> yep
19:39:25 <Akien> Apart from that things are running quietly but well
19:39:38 <MrsB> How are they getting on? have they found their way around ok?
19:40:07 <Akien> I think so, we redirected them to Transifex, and I put the one we were in contact with as team coordinator
19:40:18 <Latte> I'm not sure. Mahmoud has created an tx account and yurchor has activated it
19:40:25 <Akien> I've already seen some of them translations synced in git, so I guess they're working already
19:40:46 <MrsB> that's good :) keep in touch with them
19:40:50 <marja> and I saw this morning around 10 Farsi po files were pushed from Tx to git
19:40:58 <Akien> I asked them if they'd want an i18n-fa ML, and Mahmoud said that we be nice, so I'll ask that from the sysadmins in a bug report
19:41:01 <MrsB> it's a good sign Mageia is growing
19:41:08 <Akien> Indeed
19:42:01 <MrsB> well done to you guys for enabling it to happen
19:43:03 <ennael> ok packagers then
19:43:09 <ennael> #info packagers team
19:43:19 <MrsB> topic
19:43:54 <ennael> Akien: want to add something on that side ?
19:44:29 <DavidWHodgins> ennael: Should be #topic, not #info.
19:44:34 <Stormi_> actually #info not topic
19:44:41 <Stormi_> shouldn't have been topic for i18n team
19:44:51 <ennael> we are in teams review topic
19:45:03 <DavidWHodgins> Ah. Yes. Sorry.
19:45:07 <Stormi_> now we are in i18n team topic :)
19:45:11 <Akien> Well we had an interesting meeting two weeks ago IIRC (or is it 3 already?)
19:45:25 <ennael> 2 I guess
19:45:41 <Akien> It was good to gather some willing packagers together again to discuss some topics and brainstorm a bit about how we want to go further (especially on the dev side)
19:46:11 <Akien> The main idea currently is that we have quite a few willing developers and apprentice developers, but we lack a modern infra to do some efficient work
19:46:43 <wilcal> Question: About how many Mageia packages do not have a mantainer
19:47:03 <Akien> i.e. a system that would enable us to review each other's code changes, etc., so that we can work in a more "community-based" way towards predefined milestones for our tools
19:47:20 <MrsB> web based thing?
19:47:35 <ennael> yep
19:47:51 <ennael> a wayto share modifications, patches, devels for code review
19:47:54 <Akien> Yeah, likely something like KDE's reviewboard: https://git.reviewboard.kde.org/r/125136/
19:47:55 <[mbot> [ Add an interface which allow plugin to show custom overlay icons | Review Request | Review Board ]
19:48:01 <doktor5000_> wilcal: updated all the time in the dark blue header of http://pkgsubmit.mageia.org/
19:48:06 <Akien> Or to some extent something similar to GitHub if you're familiar with it
19:48:12 <[mbot> [ Build system status ]
19:48:15 <MrsB> makes sense yeah
19:48:17 <wilcal> thanks
19:48:19 <Akien> i.e. where you can make inline comments about commits, pull requests, etc.
19:48:47 <MrsB> we have to make working on mageia as accessible as possible
19:48:50 <ennael> that would help also new comers
19:49:04 <MrsB> yeah, more like what they're already used to
19:49:04 <ennael> and trainees for packagers
19:49:06 <Akien> I think that's a must have, and somehow a big bottleneck as long as we don't have it, because now people eager await such a platform and won't want to mess with putting patches on bugzilla :p
19:49:20 <ennael> hum
19:49:22 <ennael> they say :)
19:49:30 <Akien> No that's just my own assumption :p
19:49:33 <ennael> :)
19:49:35 <Akien> (or my own sentiment hehe)
19:49:39 <MrsB> what's the way forward ?
19:49:46 <Stormi_> If reviewboard doesn't fit, gitlab is quite a good free github clone (not exactly a clone, but inspired)
19:49:47 <ennael> new server, upgrade
19:50:03 <MrsB> ahh needs the hardware first
19:50:04 <Akien> infra upgrade above all yes.
19:50:07 <Luigi12_work> we also need to move packages to git and a more flexible build system
19:50:25 <Akien> But we shouldn't be idle either, we need to review the various software possibilities, and maybe package the one we want to use
19:50:34 <ennael> Luigi12_work: you don't like grand-pa vcs? :)
19:50:50 <Luigi12_work> I actually don't mind it too much, except for when we're in freeze
19:50:57 <Luigi12_work> but it bothers other developers, they complain to me a lot
19:51:23 <ennael> anyway this is a big change to be checked also with coling_
19:51:32 <MrsB> i think something like that would be a big step forward
19:51:33 <ennael> he said he would be more available in coming days
19:51:46 <ennael> coling_ and pterjan also can help
19:52:10 <MrsB> what do other distros use? might be better to normalise somewhat
19:52:37 <Akien> Fedora uses git, Debian uses... whatever :p
19:52:47 <ennael> well most of open source project are migrating to git
19:52:51 <ennael> except debian :p
19:52:53 <MrsB> web based thing thingy i mean
19:52:59 <MrsB> -thing
19:53:06 <ennael> they are all home made basically
19:53:08 <Luigi12_work> debian is a total mess
19:53:22 <MrsB> ahh no norm then
19:53:26 <ennael> noep
19:53:28 <ennael> nope
19:53:45 <Akien> Some distros use GitHub directly, like Mint IIRC
19:54:13 <Luigi12_work> Fedora and RHEL use git, SuSE uses their own in-house thing through OBS, omdv uses git
19:54:28 <ennael> so what we can do first is to review the needs and check the existing tools
19:54:39 <ennael> I guess we do not need to reinvent the wheel there
19:54:53 <MrsB> no, the idea would be to decrease work i suppose
19:54:56 <Akien> Indeed, implementing our own solution would be too much work IMO
19:55:01 <Luigi12_work> indeed
19:55:41 <MrsB> accessibility is key imho, the same with having good docs
19:55:42 <ennael> then on packagers side we need to reinforce the release planning and freeze periods
19:57:10 <ennael> damned we killed them all
19:57:24 <marja> ?
19:57:35 <ennael> Akien: anything else to add?
19:57:37 <Luigi12_work> actually I think we need to change how we handle freezing
19:57:49 <Luigi12_work> coling and I talked about this at length during the mga5 cycle
19:57:51 <Akien> Luigi12_work: Yes that might be worth discussing.
19:58:01 <ennael> Luigi12_work: any proposal?
19:58:10 <Luigi12_work> we agreed that the version freeze as it's currently done needs to go
19:58:45 <Luigi12_work> we should still have that phase in the cycle where we focus on stabilization, and packagers need to understand that
19:58:59 <Luigi12_work> but the hard version freeze and the way we handle that is counterproductive
19:59:09 <ennael> any proposal ?
19:59:13 <MrsB> we could maybe rename it to stabilisation period
19:59:19 <ennael> :)
19:59:37 <MrsB> try to chenge attitudes rather than enforce a freeze
19:59:42 <MrsB> -e +a
19:59:49 <Luigi12_work> proposal - get rid of the hard version freeze and just make sure we're communicating with the team so we're all on the same page about what the development focus is in each phase
20:00:09 <ennael> outch
20:00:15 <Luigi12_work> if a certain packager can't play along and we need to freeze their access during a phase, that can still be done
20:00:37 <Luigi12_work> but for the most part, we need to communicate and we need to trust maintainers to maintain their packages appropriately
20:00:38 <ennael> I bet you we will have version update until end of the release
20:00:52 <Luigi12_work> I didn't say get rid of the release freeze
20:00:52 <Akien> Maybe we should have a hard version freeze on ISO packages at least
20:00:56 <Luigi12_work> no
20:01:18 <MrsB> perhaps new versions go through updates testing
20:01:19 <Akien> So that we can better stabilise the ISOs (as that's 99% of the work during the beta and RC phases)
20:01:19 <Luigi12_work> the release freeze is different because that's supposed to be the last days leading to release
20:01:38 <Luigi12_work> release managers still need a place to take responsibility for the changes, the release freeze accomplishes that
20:01:55 <Luigi12_work> but the mga5 cycle should show that the version freeze was not productive
20:01:57 <ennael> so update version until 1 month before relesae ?
20:02:21 <Stormi_> mga5 showed that adding important features late in the cycle is not productive
20:02:21 <Luigi12_work> whatever the timeline is.  I'm not saying we take all the shackles off and it's a total free-for-all
20:02:32 <MrsB> if done responsibly it could work, that's down to communication and maintainers understanding tho
20:02:33 <Stormi_> It didn't defeat the concept of freeze
20:02:46 <Luigi12_work> like I said, we still have a stabilization phase and packagers understand to focus on bugfix updates and not introducing major changes that will destablize the distro
20:03:23 <Luigi12_work> Stormi_: adding features to the installer has nothing to do with packaging freezes
20:03:38 <Stormi_> yes but it added delay over delay
20:03:45 <DavidWHodgins> I think packages that are included on the iso images should be treated more strictly than those that are not on the iso images.
20:03:47 <Stormi_> freeze would have been shorter (but no UEFI support)
20:03:51 <Luigi12_work> and actually, I think the way we've been doing things with packaging actually contributes to the problem of development late in the cycle on our own tools
20:04:05 <Luigi12_work> we have to realize that we all have (and are) limited resources
20:04:14 <Luigi12_work> we have a small set of people doing packaging and development
20:04:23 <MrsB> we've had a bit of history of features being added quite late in the cycle, that's something we should tackle too. Hopefully a proper dev team will help with that though
20:04:30 <Luigi12_work> the way we do the freezing currently only makes things more difficult on already strained resources
20:04:33 <Stormi_> In freeze, most pushes are accepted
20:04:38 <Luigi12_work> like i said, it's been very counterproductive
20:04:40 <wilcal> brb
20:04:49 <Stormi_> And I like the fact that people have to explain why their submit is harmless and/or needed
20:05:10 <Stormi_> To me the focus should be on a short period, rather than making it easier
20:05:18 <Stormi_> This means everybody actually works at fixing bugs
20:05:34 <MrsB> short period means feature complete earlier
20:05:35 <Luigi12_work> currently a lot of packagers just run away and wait until the release so they can start working again
20:05:40 <Stormi_> yes MrsB
20:05:54 <Stormi_> well some packagers don't like to fix bugs
20:05:55 <MrsB> dev team setup will help with that
20:05:57 <Luigi12_work> we need better communication and a better process
20:06:04 <Luigi12_work> our current process is not helping
20:06:09 <Stormi_> when it implies refraining to update to the last version
20:06:27 <ennael> as said to Akien all the delays on releases come from our home made tools
20:06:48 <MrsB> and gnome
20:06:51 <ennael> if we solve this we solve 90% of the current pb
20:06:56 <ennael> MrsB: maintainer missing
20:07:21 <ennael> as Olav said he is a packager not a dev
20:07:24 <Akien> We might want to try to put the "hard versions freeze" later in the release cycle, as most bugs come from our tools, and our tools aren't even frozen :)
20:07:25 <ennael> he cannot debug
20:07:34 <Luigi12_work> if you treat people like they can't be trusted, they'll prove you right.  I'd rather we not continue this.
20:07:35 <ennael> sure
20:08:04 <MrsB> that's fair enough, nobody can force him. It's another area we could improve though (somehow)
20:08:11 <doktor5000_> FWIW somebody mentioned our packaging docs in the wiki need updating - if someone could put those to-be-updated documents on a short list in the wiki or on -dev ml, I'd be happy to go through them
20:08:23 <ennael> it's not about trusting but trying to fix some deadline
20:08:35 <ennael> the one fr mageia5 were clearly not appriopriate
20:08:37 <Luigi12_work> my proposal does not hurt "fixing a deadline"
20:08:42 <ennael> because of the huge delay
20:08:52 <Luigi12_work> could we have anticipated the huge delay?
20:09:04 <ennael> pretty sure yes
20:09:08 <marja> doktor5000_: wow, thx! ...Akien, could would you have time to go throught the current packaging pages to see what needs to be updated?
20:09:11 <Luigi12_work> and how much did driving packagers away because of the process contribute to the delays?
20:09:29 <marja> Akien: doktor5000 want to do the work
20:10:07 <Akien> marja, doktor5000_: Well that's actually the first task to be done. At a glance, the documentation needs to be updated IMO, but first someone needs to check it to see what needs updating. I don't have much time or motivation for that right now :/
20:10:39 <marja> Akien: np, we'll ask doktor5000_ to update all packaging pages ;-)
20:10:40 <Stormi_> you can change the process, fact is that there are packagers that, freeze or not, like making the distro move forward but hate to polish and debug
20:10:42 <MrsB> perhap we could try a "testing new system" period of stabilising, with comms and docs to point to, with the proviso we will go back to old system if it is abused or individual privilidges reduced
20:11:12 <ennael> grumbl my connection decided to freeze like the versions did
20:11:17 <Akien> Hehe
20:11:22 <Luigi12_work> lol
20:11:28 <Stormi_> And I'm the one on 3G...
20:11:45 * ennael is on 4G router because adsl not working here
20:11:48 <ennael> anyway
20:12:05 <ennael> these ara interesting discussions to be managed also with packager team
20:12:06 <Akien> How about a gradual freeze? Freeze only the packages contains on the ISOs at first (e.g. by alpha3) and then freeze everything by beta1.
20:12:21 <Akien> s/contains/contained/
20:12:28 <doktor5000_> would be an idea for mga6 to go for openqa, this could automate most of the basic testing like installer, first login and such
20:12:38 <Luigi12_work> Akien: I would not be in favor
20:12:38 <MrsB> yeah
20:12:41 <Luigi12_work> either we fix the problem or we don't
20:12:59 <Stormi_> agreed with ennael
20:13:00 <Luigi12_work> I wish coling_ was here, since I am not explaining things well
20:13:09 <Stormi_> He can in packager meeting
20:13:12 <Luigi12_work> ok we can table this until later
20:13:27 * ennael gives a beer to Luigi12_work
20:13:31 <MrsB> automated testing has been somethign we've wanted to do forever doktor5000_ :)
20:13:34 <ennael> (one solution we could generalize)
20:13:37 <wilcal> back
20:13:40 <MrsB> wb
20:13:43 * Luigi12_work pours beer on Verscheldes
20:13:45 * Stormi_ takes a beer
20:13:45 <Akien> Luigi12_work: "either we fix the problem or we don't", sounds to me a bit like "either we release Mageia 6 or we close the door"
20:13:48 <ennael> :)
20:13:58 <Akien> Luigi12_work: Go-betweens are not too bad IMO :)
20:14:05 <Luigi12_work> Akien: or we make someone sit in the corner until they behave
20:14:06 <Luigi12_work> :o)
20:14:09 <Akien> lol
20:14:29 <Akien> But yeah let's discuss this on dev@ and maybe dev meeting
20:14:41 <ennael> about openqa, I will ask suse guys about the portability of this tool
20:14:42 <Akien> IIRC coling_ did have some pretty convincing arguments when we discussed all this :)
20:14:42 <marja> doktor5000_: you or I could mail dev ml and ask apprentices and recently graduated packagers to tell which pages were most confusing
20:14:44 <MrsB> i think there is the impression that once we hit freeze ackagers get a holiday and the ISO team takes over
20:14:56 <Luigi12_work> Akien: yeah I wish I kept logs
20:15:07 <MrsB> the system David is proposing could help to change that impression
20:15:13 <Luigi12_work> yep
20:15:52 <doktor5000_> marja: yes, as I can't tell which are confusing - but we do really have a lot of duplicate content there
20:15:59 <Luigi12_work> Atlassian actually combined their development and QA teams into one, to get rid of the impression that certain things are someone else's responsibility
20:16:05 <Luigi12_work> I'm not proposing that we go that far ;o)
20:16:24 <ennael> we could put all teams in secteam
20:16:28 <MrsB> lol
20:16:31 * ennael closes the door
20:16:32 <Luigi12_work> sweet
20:16:34 * MrsB declines
20:16:36 <ennael> :)
20:16:42 <ennael> ok
20:16:46 <Akien> doktor5000_, marja: That's what most confusing IMO. As a mentor, when I look for the wiki pages that could be relevant to a complete apprentice, I'm lost. We have 3 or 4 pages that cover slightly different but also similar topics
20:17:18 <Luigi12_work> Akien: yeah I see the same thing
20:17:28 <MrsB> About autoqa too..
20:17:53 <Akien> doktor5000_, marja: So more than really "outdated" doc, this duplicate content and lack of a clear walkthrough is what makes it all confusing
20:18:09 <MrsB> If we had something capable of doing basic checks, we could do weekly builds, helps build stability and gives a real base for maintainers to test packages with
20:18:16 <Akien> doktor5000_, marja: As a mentor I actually find it easier to make padawans start with malo's 1st seminar, which is IMO clearer than the wiki doc
20:19:06 <Akien> doktor5000_, marja: The packagers wiki does mentions creating stuff like ~/rpm/{BUILD,BUILDROOT,RPMS,SPECS,SOURCES,SRPMS} etc., we actually packagers all use mgarepo co and then bm in the checked out dir...
20:20:01 <Stormi_> Are we still doing team review?
20:20:14 <Luigi12_work> we were, until beers started being handed out
20:20:20 <MrsB> yes, we're picking on the packaging team :)
20:20:36 <Akien> Hehe right, let's move on to mga6 planning maybe
20:20:53 <ennael> grumbllll
20:20:55 <Stormi_> No bugsquad ?
20:20:59 * Luigi12_work still hasn't even had time to start doing any packaging for mga6 :o(
20:21:07 <ennael> #info bugsquad review
20:21:12 <Stormi_> o/
20:21:13 <Luigi12_work> yay bugsquad
20:21:13 <ennael> Stormi_: your turn :)
20:21:20 <MrsB> active bugsquad \o/
20:22:02 <Stormi_> so bugsquad is still waiting to be revived as an actual team that works together
20:22:10 <Stormi_> I mean, marja and me are active
20:22:13 <wilcal> horray for the bugsquad
20:22:15 <Stormi_> Some others help triaging
20:22:23 <Stormi_> But we lack some structure
20:22:46 <Stormi_> However, my plan is to first improve tools and then gather people around simpler tasks
20:22:46 <marja> well, I try to be active
20:23:25 <Stormi_> It's not easy for new members to know what to do, and I want us to have an equivalent to QA's madb page where we know what needs to be done
20:23:37 <Stormi_> It will be somewhat harder but that's my goal for now
20:23:47 <Luigi12_work> oh wow, that would be neat
20:23:51 <Luigi12_work> quick display of untriaged bugs
20:23:51 <MrsB> good planning Stormi_, structure & docs, then bring people in
20:24:01 <Luigi12_work> hence the need for packagers-bugs@
20:24:06 <Stormi_> yes
20:24:45 <Stormi_> and need for access to the bugzilla database, for which I need to wait for bugzilla to be migrated to version 5, so we come back to infra upgrade :)
20:24:57 <MrsB> and mysql
20:26:03 <Stormi_> yes, so I need to wait in order not to have to re-do things
20:26:10 <Stormi_> Mean while, the current tasks :
20:26:24 <Stormi_> - handle MIA maintainers (dmorgan case still to be sorted)
20:26:45 <Stormi_> - differentiate bugsquad bugs from packager bugs (packager-bugs@...)
20:27:13 <Stormi_> - add maintainer information to madb (done actually, I haven't told people about it!)
20:27:57 <MrsB> well done
20:27:59 <Stormi_> - re-think statuses in bugzilla, if it improves the process (when/if I have a proposal, I'll e-mail it to relevant mailing lists)
20:28:26 <Stormi_> Also it occurred to me that bugsquad is more or less the keeper of the maintainers database
20:28:32 <Stormi_> We are the ones who need it most
20:28:51 <marja> true
20:28:52 <Stormi_> So we have to make it live
20:29:37 <Stormi_> The addition of maintainers to madb is one step in this direction. You can now click the "more..." text and select a maintainer... And see all their packages, by groupes, updates candidates, etc.
20:29:43 <ennael> what about importing madb in mageia infra
20:30:03 <ennael> I've heard people who were hesitating like is it official or not
20:30:22 <Luigi12_work> madb.mageia.org would be nice
20:30:23 <Stormi_> I'm still open to it, but as I've stated I need someone from sysadmins to work together with me.
20:30:44 <ennael> ùaybe first using domain name
20:30:51 <ennael> then migrating when people available
20:30:56 <Stormi_> Yes that's possible
20:31:03 <Stormi_> and I need to add the navigation banner on top too
20:31:11 <Luigi12_work> oh no :o(
20:31:26 <Stormi_> so that people who reach madb from a search engine can jump to downloading mageia, for example
20:31:34 <Stormi_> and so that it appears to be part of the site
20:31:37 <Stormi_> sorry Luigi12_work :)
20:31:41 <Luigi12_work> coling had a better idea for implementing nav
20:32:00 <Luigi12_work> hopefully we can do that first before we spread the nav.mageia.org disease^Wmadness^Wbliss elsewhere :o)
20:32:16 <Stormi_> I'll use whatever is current
20:32:37 <Stormi_> So we go for the domain change?
20:32:45 <MrsB> being part of m.o would enable that
20:33:01 <Luigi12_work> yeah that should help with the "is it official" problem
20:33:20 <MrsB> madb is a hidden gem atm
20:33:31 <Luigi12_work> then at some point the maintdb could be moved into madb and then it could be more flexible than currently
20:33:31 <Stormi_> I'll add a post-it to my wall then
20:33:48 <Luigi12_work> multiple maintainers or maintainer groups or whatever
20:33:49 <tmb> so madb.mageia.org pointing to mageia.madb.org ip ?
20:34:06 <MrsB> we're moving slowly towards having everything web based and accessible, which can only be a good thing
20:34:17 <Stormi_> tmb: yes as a first step
20:34:53 <Stormi_> end of bugsquad / madb review :)
20:35:05 <MrsB> mighty review Stormi_, well done
20:35:18 <Stormi_> post-its on the wall help
20:35:56 <MrsB> great to see this kind of stuff happening :)
20:36:17 <Stormi_> not working on mondays anymore helps
20:36:32 <MrsB> some would say you never did :P
20:36:41 <DavidWHodgins> lol
20:36:56 <Stormi_> I promise I see a great difference :)
20:37:12 <MrsB> atelier?
20:37:28 <ennael> don't think we have people around
20:37:34 <ennael> #topic atelier review
20:37:41 <ennael> #undo
20:37:42 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Topic object at 0xb6a5388c>
20:37:50 <ennael> #info atelier review
20:37:57 <Stormi_> oops she did it again
20:38:12 <ennael> just a quick note about having a designer?
20:38:16 <Luigi12_work> ennael == Britney Spears?
20:38:20 <ennael> I sent a message on council ML some days ago
20:38:36 <ennael> Luigi12_work: be careful I see dead sec guys
20:38:47 <Luigi12_work> yeah, I'm on thin ice
20:38:54 <ennael> :)
20:39:04 <Luigi12_work> as long as we have a "designer" and not a "usablity expert" it should be good
20:39:19 <MrsB> i like the idea of a designer, they'd need to be specifically tasked though. We'd also need to be able to implement any changes.
20:40:30 <Akien> My main concern with commisioning a designer is: who will handle his/her work? Write down what we need exactly, how it should be done, etc.
20:40:44 <schultz> having a designer would be great, and I imagine the web team can handle most suggestions there, the distro specific ones, plymouth is the only nasty piece
20:40:48 <MrsB> atelier still needs some artwork web space / mediagoblin type thing
20:41:06 <Akien> Making a new concept is easy for a designer, but making a concept that can be readily integrated in our distro is something else.
20:41:20 <Akien> e.g. who would change the drakx UI to fit new design guidelines? :)
20:41:35 <Akien> Unless I misunderstood the scope of the proposal?
20:41:48 <MrsB> web would be a good place to start
20:41:58 <ennael> well if we have specifications for the design then it's easier to integrate
20:42:18 <ennael> past experience has shown we were able to integrate not really to draw :)
20:42:29 <MrsB> :)
20:43:24 <MrsB> where would we find such a designer?
20:43:24 <schultz> I can draw boats, thats about it - so unless thats the design direction we want getting a designer and letting the rest work itself out seems good to me
20:43:56 <Akien> But I'm not sure designers can just "work themselves out"
20:44:08 <Akien> Unless they are also motivated contributors who know how to handle an open source community
20:44:10 <Akien> e.g. animtim :)
20:44:29 <Luigi12_work> maybe if the installer was designed like a boat, installing would be smooth sailing
20:44:34 <Akien> Hehe
20:44:37 <MrsB> OOooohh
20:44:54 <schultz> Nice...
20:44:55 <tmb> or sink like titanic
20:45:00 <Luigi12_work> ouch
20:45:10 <schultz> With me at the helm we can be sure of sinking...
20:45:49 <schultz> Being more serious, Akien is right, we should have guidelines and some sort of brief for what we want in place, still with wiggle room for creativity and such, but not completely open ended
20:46:04 <MrsB> I haven't seen anybody say no to a designer, we just need to decide some tasks, procedures and boundaries
20:46:10 <MrsB> yeah
20:46:54 <MrsB> ennael: where were you intending to point a designer?
20:48:32 <MrsB> scared her away by agreeing
20:51:07 <schultz> I would say we ask for drakx, installer, website, and maybe something along the lines of an overall design feel/direction for the future, wrt colour, patterns and such - if they feel like giving us a background then that would be great
20:52:18 <DavidWHodgins> I'm one of those people, who doesn't see a point in changing the design every release. Why not stay with what we have?
20:53:13 <MrsB> i think looking new is important, it's the first step of feeling new
20:53:26 <schultz> I'm as such with you Dave, but from my understanding, ennael was wanting to have the whole look of the distro looked at, not just the bits that we have changed.
20:53:33 <DavidWHodgins> I like stability. :-)
20:54:02 <schultz> the ui for most of our tools goes back to when I started using mdv, so that was 2008.1 - I think they are due some attention
20:55:14 <MrsB> well perhaps a list of tasks and they should all integrate well
20:55:26 <MrsB> ui/website etc
20:56:02 <marja> DavidWHodgins: I don't care about the looks, either, but won't fight the majority
20:56:11 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
20:56:25 <schultz> yeah that would be good - they don't have to have a full mesh, but enough similarity to build a recognition pattern
20:57:10 <MrsB> yes, like mint has the 3D linux mint as a theme, just vary the theme for each release, but it's reconisable throughout
20:57:17 <MrsB> or suse has green
20:57:17 <schultz> the way I see it, if we get this done well, we can have the looks of the ui's sorted and looking tastefully modern and not need to touch them for another 8 years or however long its been
20:57:49 <schultz> and we are blue, with varying degrees of a chopped up cauldron
20:58:41 <MrsB> looks like we killed ennael
20:58:54 <stormi> or her connection
20:59:11 <schultz> sadly I seem to have that effect...
20:59:16 <MrsB> How did you get on with goodie ordering schultz?
21:01:34 <schultz> I was meant to be ordering goodies? I think I need to start tatooing todo lists on my arm my brain is so seive like these days
21:03:05 <ennael> sorry...
21:03:12 <ennael> connection just cut
21:03:22 <marja> np
21:03:28 <MrsB> wb :)
21:03:38 <wilcal> we were just talking about the great French internet
21:03:53 <ennael> humpf
21:04:49 <Stormi_> meetbot was invented so that ennael can get full logs
21:04:57 <marja> :-)
21:05:16 <ennael> ask Orange to bring some proper connection first :)
21:08:19 <doktor5000__> Akien: mail sent about packager documentation to dev ml - FWIW, who's currently handling mentoring coordination? anyone replaced malo ?
21:08:47 <ennael> ok we still need  to speak about mageia 6 planning
21:08:54 <ennael> now or on ML ?
21:09:25 <DavidWHodgins> Probably better to do that on the ml.
21:09:33 <MrsB> yes, it's getting late
21:09:42 <ennael> yep ok I'll send an email juste after this to start discussion
21:10:00 <MrsB> It sounds like a number of things hinge on getting the infra done atm
21:10:17 <marja> doktor5000__: ouch, I sent a mail, too
21:10:23 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
21:10:27 <ennael> ok :)
21:10:35 <ennael> can we stop the meeting?
21:10:48 <marja> doktor5000__: but your mail is better :-)
21:10:52 <MrsB> yes for me
21:11:20 <DavidWHodgins> Yes
21:12:53 <wilcal> I'm done
21:12:54 <Stormi_> yes
21:13:22 <marja> yes
21:13:38 <ennael> ok
21:13:43 <ennael> thanks all for attending
21:13:46 <ennael> #endmeeting