19:06:19 <ennael> #startmeeting 19:06:19 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Mon Jul 9 19:06:19 2012 UTC. The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:06:19 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:06:38 <ennael> I will change a bit our topics tonight 19:07:25 <ennael> speak first quickly about genereal review, blog posts 19:07:37 <ennael> and then updates management 19:07:50 <ennael> is that ok for all ? 19:07:54 <sebsebseb> yep 19:07:58 <marja11> OK 19:08:05 <MrsB> ok 19:08:14 <Max__> Okay. 19:08:20 <maat|lin> o/ 19:08:23 <ennael> ok first out of topic we learnt today this sad news about Eugeni 19:08:34 <marja11> :( 19:08:38 <ennael> a blog post is in progress about this and should be published soon 19:08:50 <sebsebseb> ok 19:08:58 <marja11> good 19:09:08 <ennael> on my side I may not have tons of patience tonight so sorry if I sound a bit rude later 19:09:24 <marja11> we understand 19:09:29 <Max__> Hey, whatever it takes to make these meetings efficient :P 19:09:37 <ennael> so let start 19:09:51 <ennael> #topic general review for Mageia.Org 19:09:57 <ennael> so quickly about this one 19:10:37 <ennael> during last general assembly we proposed to post fresh news about the project life 19:10:43 <ennael> but more often than once a year 19:11:07 <ennael> so I'd like to propose such revies in coming days or weeks 19:11:20 <ennael> including team activity and some figures about Mageia 19:12:10 <ennael> wdyt ? 19:12:30 <MrsB> good idea, qa team activity might get a bit samey though :D 19:12:40 <sebsebseb> sure people generally like being informed quite a bit on the blog, about what's going on with Mageia, I guess 19:13:14 <marja11> how many lines of text about each team, ± ? 19:13:28 <Max__> A good idea. Many other distros do this about halfway through their development cycle, in addition to every time a devel release comes out. 19:13:59 <MrsB> oh you mean every few months or something? 19:14:07 <ennael> you can have a look here 19:14:08 <ennael> http://blog.mageia.org/en/2012/03/13/general-assembly-and-first-year-review-for-mageia-org/ 19:14:09 <[mbot> [ General Assembly and first year review for Mageia.Org | Mageia Blog (English) ] 19:14:15 <ennael> attached is the report 19:14:20 <ennael> it can give you an idea 19:14:56 <ennael> the idea is to give the big lines of project life since the last general assembly 19:15:19 <marja11> sounds good 19:15:45 <sebsebseb> ennael: you mean like an update on what's been going on with Mageia, since then? 19:15:49 <ennael> I let you all think about it in your respective teams 19:15:53 <ennael> sebsebseb: yes 19:15:55 <MrsB> good to see that yes 19:16:10 <ennael> then we can speak about his in let say 2 weeks 19:16:17 <marja11> fine 19:16:23 <ennael> we can plan this for august, no rush for it 19:17:09 <MrsB> copy & paste qa but change the year 19:17:38 <sebsebseb> yeah team updates, events maybe something about even, etc I guess 19:17:46 <ennael> anything else on that topic ? 19:17:58 <marja11> not here 19:18:01 <MrsB> nope 19:18:03 <sebsebseb> nope 19:18:04 <tmb> nope 19:18:09 <ennael> ok 19:18:15 <ennael> let's move then 19:18:30 <ennael> #topic blog posts planning 19:19:03 <ennael> so we started some months ago to post in a regular way on Mageia blog 19:19:22 <ennael> so that we can spread Mageia and people can still be focused on Mageia news 19:19:43 <ennael> we need to go back on this, especially now as we don't have development releases 19:20:27 <ennael> so it would be nice to plan a list of subjects for coming weeks 19:20:37 <ennael> and have something like 1 post /week 19:20:47 <ennael> does it sound reasonable ? sensible ? 19:21:15 <MrsB> yes, it's important I think. The community stretches wider than those we see on irc. We need to keep them involved 19:21:15 <marja11> it sounds great...... where do we find the persons to write them? 19:21:30 <ennael> ok 19:21:54 <ennael> so we could start again interviews to speak about people making Mageia 19:21:56 <sebsebseb> MrsB: yeah there are loads of users out there I expect, but users who don't contribute to Mageia teams at the moment, regular blog post updates could help with this to some extent 19:22:09 <ennael> I sent a mail to MrsB about this asking her to explain everything about her 19:22:19 <marja11> great :) 19:22:22 * MrsB hasn't done it yet 19:22:27 <MrsB> I will tho 19:22:38 <sebsebseb> ennael: ah yes those blog interviews, yeah those were good :) 19:22:56 <Max__> I think also we may want to discuss common bugs, maybe a new tutorial that somebody wrote on the wiki/forum... 19:23:12 <MrsB> i like that idea Max__ 19:23:21 <Max__> Talking about the people is good, it adds the human conection, but we need to talk about the distro as well. 19:23:24 <Max__> Maybe alternate? 19:24:40 <marja11> maybe 1 - 3 19:24:45 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Blog_articles_planning 19:24:57 <ennael> we can use something like this 19:25:05 <Max__> Whatever the ratio is, there needs to be both. 19:25:06 <ennael> and add articles proposal on timeline 19:25:11 <ennael> Max__: of course 19:26:05 <ennael> does it looks ok ? 19:26:12 <Max__> Maybe a piece by someone using Mageia in the industry... 19:26:22 <MrsB> good plan ennael 19:26:27 <Max__> ^ 19:26:35 <tmb> yep 19:26:43 <marja11> :) 19:26:57 <sebsebseb> MrsB: oh right your done for a they make Mageia soon :d 19:27:00 <sebsebseb> going by that link 19:27:04 <sebsebseb> down for, above 19:27:19 <MrsB> yep, i have a list of questions to fill in :) 19:27:25 <ennael> so it would be nice to have a list for coming 4 weeks at least 19:28:40 <Max__> I'll write an email to -atelier calling for ideas for blog posts for the next month or so. 19:28:48 <marja11> Max__: thx :) 19:29:04 <sebsebseb> some Mageia events happended, but no proper blog post about them yet 19:29:05 <ennael> #action plan blog posts for coming 4 weeks at least 19:29:28 <marja11> sebsebseb: you mean Linuxtag and Solutions Linux 19:29:37 <marja11> sebsebseb: you're right about that 19:29:37 <ennael> sebsebseb: planned but french guys for example are back to another event 19:29:43 <ennael> will see with them 19:29:45 <sebsebseb> marja11: yep indeed, but maybe even the one I did a talk at in a way about Mageia :d 19:29:46 <marja11> RMLL 19:29:50 <ennael> yep 19:29:56 <marja11> sebsebseb: true 19:30:38 <ennael> anything else on this ? 19:30:44 <coincoin> hi all 19:30:55 <MrsB> morning coincoin 19:31:01 <sebsebseb> yep one little thing 19:31:01 <tmb> nope 19:31:40 <sebsebseb> maybe when people go on podcasts to talk about Magiea offically, like coling and me, did not that long ago, it's wroth having a blog post or something, a short one, mentioning that? just an idea 19:32:03 <ennael> just propose it 19:32:18 <marja11> with a link to the podcast :) 19:32:48 <sebsebseb> well this is the link really http://unseenstudio.co.uk/casts/crivins/episode-20 ,but I guess he has started re doing his site, which was planned, so that link doesn't really work as such at the moment 19:33:12 <ennael> ok just post on wiki 19:33:16 <ennael> can we go on ? 19:33:27 <tmb> yep 19:33:29 <marja11> yes 19:33:36 <sebsebseb> post on wiki where? 19:34:07 <MrsB> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Blog_articles_planning 19:34:12 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Blog_articles_planning 19:34:16 <ennael> arf 19:34:19 <MrsB> lol 19:34:21 <ennael> ok next topic ? 19:34:30 <sebsebseb> ennael: MrsB yep ok thought it was that 19:34:33 <sebsebseb> ok let's move on :) 19:35:01 <ennael> #topic updates policy and management 19:35:32 <ennael> 1 minute please looking for an url 19:36:06 <Max__> Where did you last have it? Maybe you left it in the car? 19:36:23 <ennael> ok 19:36:55 <ennael> I'd like to explain why I'm adding this topic (btw tmb was going to do it also) and fix some prerequires for discussions 19:37:12 <ennael> first I kindly remind everybody this one: http://www.mageia.org/en/about/code-of-conduct/ 19:37:13 <[mbot> [ Code of Conduct - Mageia ] 19:37:27 <ennael> our topic now 19:37:43 <ennael> we have a conflict growing about updates management 19:37:52 <ennael> started on Bugzilla 19:38:13 <ennael> as I did not want to see it growing again and again we spoke about it in last packagers meeting 19:38:40 <ennael> still it seems it's starting again while we thought people were ok on it 19:38:42 <Stormi> we made it grow further :) 19:38:45 <Stormi> which* 19:38:49 <ennael> indeed 19:38:56 <ennael> so before speaking about it 19:39:25 <ennael> I'd like just to remind you all that we *need* cross team work or project is dead 19:39:44 <ennael> whenever a conflict seems to happen council can help making people speaking each other 19:40:02 <ennael> we should not wait people shouting 19:40:38 <ennael> written communication is just really bad in such cases 19:40:47 <marja11> it is 19:40:55 <ennael> as people don't see them each other and just create misunderstandings 19:41:50 <ennael> so on my side I'd like not to see again such discussion this is just calamitous (translation ?) for project image 19:42:05 <ennael> if there is a pb we take time to solve it not to fight about it 19:42:14 <ennael> does all this sound silly ? 19:42:52 <MrsB> not so far 19:42:54 <sebsebseb> nope 19:42:59 <ennael> ok 19:43:16 <ennael> last thing before starting 19:43:24 <marja11> sorry, me is still thinking about "calamitous" 19:43:42 <ennael> keep in mind *all* teams are overloaded and have huge todo lists 19:44:16 <ennael> now I'd like us to have both QA and packagers views on all this 19:44:17 <marja11> true 19:44:17 <Max__> marja11: from the word calamity. 19:44:44 <DavidWHodgins> I think I started it. 19:44:44 <ennael> please keep calm and people speak each other 19:44:52 <marja11> Max__: but I suppose it means "harmful" 19:44:59 <MrsB> I learned something this evening which explains alot of what has happened 19:45:01 <tmb> marja11: destructive, disastrous 19:45:06 <marja11> tmb: thx 19:45:14 <ennael> ok tmb do you want to start ? 19:45:18 <ennael> then we can hear MrsB 19:45:24 <ennael> is that ok ? 19:45:27 <MrsB> k 19:45:31 <tmb> ok 19:46:43 <tmb> well, first of I think QA has gotten way bad treatment for trying to keep and improve Mageia quality 19:48:26 <tmb> we all know security updates are more important than other fixes, but technically if an other fix can be done at the same time (and the packager agrees), it should be done 19:49:37 <tmb> an extra build on buildsystem + mirroring to primary mirrors takes a few hours more so its not much of a delay 19:50:27 <tmb> optimum QA is to get the fix done both in stable and cauldron 19:51:36 <tmb> but as we dont always have resources to fix everything we also have to accept that not all bugs will be fixed on stable. 19:52:44 <tmb> trouble for QA is that many packages are new to them too, so it is a hard learning curve to cope with, wich leads to questions 19:55:28 <tmb> I think QA has done a good job on trying to balance priorities 19:58:26 <tmb> wa also have had known critical fixes being pushed really fast through QA when the update request have been clear with testing procedure, and/or the packager asked for fast QA since he knows the bug is _really_ critical 19:59:57 <tmb> iirc back in mdv days the order to treat stuff was "remote exploits" > "local root exploits" > "other exploits" 20:02:19 <tmb> So I think the QA making questions on bugs they hit (remember endusers can/will hit the same) even during security validation should be hounored and responded to, either with a "will fix now" or "will fix later" 20:02:44 <DavidWHodgins> Or won't fix and why. 20:02:55 <tmb> yes. 20:03:11 <ennael> so it means also you accept it 20:03:18 <tmb> it does not take many minutes to respond to a mail 20:03:19 <ennael> meaning it will not be fixed now 20:04:28 <tmb> yes. 20:04:41 <ennael> all this *must* be clear 20:04:50 <ennael> meaning no more discussion about this after meeting 20:05:07 <MrsB> this is all good 20:05:25 <tmb> point is that for some "small" fixes, there can be more mess later (remember the msec & sectool bg) 20:05:28 <MrsB> we, both packagers rep and myself must make sure our teams understand it 20:05:28 <DavidWHodgins> I'd like to request all packagers to make sure that they are in the cc for bug reports, so they see any comments qa adds. 20:05:46 <ennael> ok 20:05:54 <tmb> DavidWHodgins: good point 20:05:59 <ennael> meaning also we close all pending discussion about all this 20:06:15 <ennael> no way to start again fighting or so 20:06:27 <DavidWHodgins> Agreed. 20:06:32 <MrsB> we really need to put a lid on it yes 20:06:34 <tmb> thats all from me for now 20:06:41 <MrsB> It has to be fed back to both teams 20:06:48 <ennael> it will be done 20:06:55 <MrsB> :) 20:07:02 <MrsB> problem solved then 20:07:14 <ennael> again no victory for any of our teams 20:07:27 <ennael> we should just not go in another such situation 20:07:43 <ennael> again next time rise topic here 20:08:03 <Stormi> I must admit I was surprised the topic was brought to packager meeting in the first time 20:08:08 <MrsB> the only victory is that mageia is successful, thats why we're all here and what we all want 20:08:20 <Stormi> it made many people aware of a few people's "fight" (if you can call that a fight) 20:08:21 <ennael> Stormi: because we spoke about it with MrsB 20:08:32 <MrsB> i was surprised too tbh 20:08:39 <ennael> and this pb was not about 1 guy only 20:08:44 <ennael> I heard other comments 20:09:04 <MrsB> it was good to air views and see both sides of the equation 20:09:12 <Stormi> I can think of 2 people in the first place, then more *after* the meeting :) 20:09:16 <ennael> so better solve it before it becomes too big 20:09:22 <Stormi> so good it's solved 20:09:31 <tmb> yeah, we need to remember that that all of us are contributing of our own free time, and no ones time is more "important" than any others 20:10:05 <ennael> MrsB: I'd like to propose a mail about this, we work on it and post it on both ML -dev and qa 20:10:14 <ennael> just based on tonight's meeting 20:10:16 <ennael> is that ok ? 20:10:45 <ennael> no interpretation then on both teams 20:10:49 <MrsB> yes of course, we began to discuss this in qa-d already 20:11:05 <ennael> ok let see that after meeting if you are available 20:11:11 <MrsB> it will be good to see it resolved and move forward 20:11:33 <ennael> ok next topic then 20:11:37 <ennael> #topic Features proposals finalization 20:11:47 <ennael> we are late on that one 20:12:30 <ennael> it would be nice to finalize at least big lines so that we can communicate on it 20:14:28 <ennael> so could you please make a last ping on teams so that people can have a look 20:14:41 <ennael> then we should close this week 20:15:14 <MrsB> do we have a specific deadline this week? 20:15:49 <ennael> let say end of this week 20:18:12 <ennael> ok . 20:18:13 <ennael> ? 20:18:47 <MrsB> yep, do you want to set a specific time to prevent fallouts? 20:18:48 <tmb> yep 20:20:04 <MrsB> say friday 12utc or something 20:20:09 <ennael> yep ok 20:20:31 <ennael> #action teams will have until 12h utc for last reviews for Mageia 3 features 20:21:40 <sebsebseb> Friday 13th 20:21:47 <MrsB> :\ 20:22:14 <maat|lin> ph34r 20:23:28 <ennael> \o/! 20:23:57 <coincoin> :) 20:24:06 <ennael> ok anything else to add ? 20:24:13 <coincoin> I advise us to shutdown all servers the day before! 20:24:22 <tmb> nope 20:24:27 <MrsB> what will happen after 12 utc? 20:24:41 <MrsB> they'll be discussed and a list finalised? 20:24:43 <ennael> end of the world ? 20:24:49 <MrsB> lol could be 20:24:59 <ennael> yep we will mail final list 20:25:13 <ennael> again having not a feature in list does not mean it will not be added 20:25:22 <ennael> if we get resources, fine 20:26:10 <ennael> questions? comments ? 20:26:28 <MrsB> all good here. 20:26:47 <marja11> agreed here 20:27:04 <ennael> ok then 20:27:15 <ennael> thanks for attending 20:27:20 <ennael> #endmeeting