19:04:06 <ennael> #startmeeting 19:04:06 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Mon Jun 11 19:04:06 2012 UTC. The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:04:06 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:04:11 <ennael> hi all 19:04:17 <ennael> #chair obgr_seneca tmb 19:04:17 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: ennael obgr_seneca tmb 19:05:05 <ennael> first welcome MrsB 19:05:23 <ennael> I guess she will join soon :) 19:05:46 <ennael> MrsB is joining QA team to help managing it 19:05:52 <sebsebseb> hi 19:06:18 <ennael> ok let's go 19:06:22 <ennael> #topic Review of actions for QA team, forum teams, artmarcom 19:06:43 <ennael> We had 3 teams going to have some changes 19:06:47 <obgr_seneca> Considering you wrote 21h UTC in the mail, she still has 2 hours to join us :D 19:06:54 <ennael> outch 19:07:09 <ennael> was a long time I did not made this mistake 19:07:10 <ennael> ... 19:07:15 <ennael> mailing here at the moment 19:07:24 <ennael> do we have forum people around ? 19:07:29 <marja7> ennael: good to see you're a human being too 19:07:33 <obgr_seneca> doktor5000: ? 19:08:02 <doktor5000> obgr_seneca: i've heard my name and i'm around 19:08:18 <ennael> :) 19:08:34 <ennael> ou summarize for everybody what is going on forum side? 19:09:17 <doktor5000> we've made some progress, reorganised/reactived helpers team in forum and found new helpers, now i'm in charge of managing that forum group 19:09:44 <obgr_seneca> #info doktor5000 is in charge of managing helper group in forums 19:10:10 <doktor5000> 3 old helpers reactived, they were like just waiting to get called for, 3 new volunteers and i've added another 4 people who volunteered in forum thread 19:10:35 <ennael> nice 19:10:49 <obgr_seneca> #info helper group is reactivated and gets organized: 10 people all together at the moment 19:11:25 <ennael> do we have leaders or whatever the name ? 19:11:28 <doktor5000> but currently i don't know/forgot status about progress since last (first) meeting about forums, sorry, i'm still swamped with work 19:11:39 <doktor5000> ennael: leaders? 19:11:44 <obgr_seneca> doktor5000: I know the feeling 19:12:01 <marja7> doktor5000: only maat volunteered, no one else 19:12:24 <doktor5000> marja7: nope 19:12:37 <marja7> who else, then? 19:12:44 <marja7> did I miss something ? 19:12:50 <doktor5000> obgr_seneca: currently we have 17 members, but only ~10 active including me 19:13:01 <obgr_seneca> #undo 19:13:01 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x847ae8c> 19:13:13 <obgr_seneca> #info helper group is reactivated and gets organized: 17 people all together at the moment, 10 active 19:13:14 <doktor5000> rest of the helpers received a round mail, and will get pruned at the end of the week if they don't reply 19:13:59 <ennael> ok 19:14:11 <ennael> do we still have some points to be solved 19:14:12 <ennael> ? 19:14:25 <ennael> or can we consider team is now able to work properly ? 19:15:14 <doktor5000> ennael: wait a min 19:15:50 <doktor5000> ennael: http://meetbot.mageia.org/mageia-forums/2012/mageia-forums.2012-06-05-19.06.html 19:15:51 <[mbot> [ #mageia-forums Meeting ] 19:16:34 <doktor5000> ennael: we still need a new team leader, AFAIK only maat applied and said he would be able to dedicate more time to it, so he has my voice 19:16:34 <ennael> yep that was the last meeting 19:16:44 <ennael> ok 19:16:52 <ennael> next meeting is planned for tomorrow I guess 19:16:58 <marja> yes 19:17:23 <obgr_seneca> #info maat applied for forum team leader, saying he has more time to dedicate to the forums in the future, no other candidates 19:17:41 <doktor5000> ennael: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Forum_Rules still needs some work IMHO 19:17:49 <ennael> ok can we consider forum topic is over ? 19:18:02 <obgr_seneca> doktor5000: at waht time is the meeting? 19:18:16 <marja> obgr_seneca: 19h UTC 19:18:25 <marja> obgr_seneca: so same time as this one 19:18:26 <doktor5000> obgr_seneca: i'm not sure, and also Germ (Stephen Germany) applied, so please undo ^^^^ 19:18:40 <obgr_seneca> #undo 19:18:40 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x847a38c> 19:18:58 <obgr_seneca> #info maat applied for forum team leader, saying he has more time to dedicate to the forums in the future, germ applied as well 19:19:14 <obgr_seneca> ok, I'll try to attend as well 19:19:20 <ennael> ok 19:19:41 <ennael> about marcomart, rda mailed about it 19:19:49 <sebsebseb> yes and there have been many replies 19:20:09 <ennael> https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-marketing/2012-June/000917.html 19:20:10 <doktor5000> ennael: and also what i proposed earlier, some website which is a TODO list of organisational things, visible for everyone and applies to all teams ... 19:20:11 <[mbot> [ [Mageia-marketing] marcom + artwork + web => atelier ? ] 19:20:26 <marja> doktor5000: sorry, Germs mail was confusing 19:20:27 <sebsebseb> also rda is suggesting atelier as the name of the team, which I think is a bad name, and someone else as well, and I explain why here 19:20:29 <sebsebseb> : 19:20:37 <marja> doktor5000: he only said "sounds good" 19:20:49 <marja> doktor5000: as a reply to maat's mail 19:20:50 <sebsebseb> https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-marketing/2012-June/000925.html 19:20:51 <[mbot> [ [Mageia-marketing] marcom + artwork + web => atelier ? ] 19:21:19 <ennael> so we will see later how it goes at least next meeting 19:21:46 <doktor5000> marja: ahh, ok sorry, so seems germ only said "sounds good" to maat applying ... 19:21:59 <marja> doktor5000: yep :/ 19:22:01 <doktor5000> obgr_seneca: ^^^^ sorry, please re-undo :/ 19:22:21 <obgr_seneca> doktor5000: that will cost you a beer :D 19:22:28 <obgr_seneca> #undo 19:22:28 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Link object at 0x827846c> 19:22:33 * doktor5000 thinks on-the-fly backlogging of important mails is a dumb thing to do 19:22:33 <obgr_seneca> #info maat applied for forum team leader, saying he has more time to dedicate to the forums in the future, no other candidates 19:22:41 <doktor5000> obgr_seneca: sure :/ 19:23:19 <ennael> (/me waiting for these guys to finish conversation... as chatty as girsl :) ) 19:23:26 * doktor5000 hands over beer to obgr_seneca and hides in a corner now 19:23:30 <obgr_seneca> ennael: Germans, you know 19:23:31 <sebsebseb> ennael: yep same here 19:23:56 <ennael> sebsebseb: yep you are chatty also :) 19:24:01 <ennael> ok 19:24:21 <sebsebseb> ennael: no I meant waiting for them to fnnish about forums, we can talk about artmarcom/arteler/another name 19:24:22 <ennael> so we will wait next meeting for marcom + artwork + web 19:24:42 <sebsebseb> ennael: oh ok 19:24:57 <ennael> about QA I hope MrsB will not kill me and connect before meeting is over 19:25:06 <ennael> let's go to next topic while this 19:25:53 <ennael> #topic Mageia 3 specifications summary 19:26:12 <ennael> so Mageia 3 specifications proposals are in progress 19:26:54 <ennael> deadline is on wednesday 19:27:23 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:ProposedFeatureMageia3 19:27:25 <sebsebseb> yeah I should probably suggest Cinnamon or something :D if no one has already 19:27:50 <obgr_seneca> #info deadline for Mga3 proposals is on Wednesday 19:27:54 <ennael> this is not only for packagers, everybody can propose some about all part of Mageia project 19:28:10 <obgr_seneca> sebsebseb: if you find a maintainer 19:28:34 <sebsebseb> obgr_seneca: well yeah that's the only issue with those kind of things, Cinnamon, Mate, Unity 19:29:07 <ennael> anything to add on this ? question ? comment ? 19:29:46 <obgr_seneca> not right now 19:30:01 <obgr_seneca> I will work with trish on accesibilty 19:30:09 <marja> ennael: yes, you think "big", others come with "small" proposals about e.g the iso's 19:30:19 <ennael> ? 19:30:38 <marja> ennael: why not look at the "small" proposals and see whether they can be merged into a big one 19:30:38 <sebsebseb> ennael: sure I have a question, how to properly suggest something? to me it's unclear by that wiki site 19:31:22 <leuhmanu> read the first sentence 19:31:46 <ennael> marja: we need to have a global view about all this 19:32:00 <ennael> and one may be ok and not the oither 19:32:14 <ennael> we can have that discussion after specifications are out 19:32:20 <ennael> people need to focus on this 19:32:34 <obgr_seneca> and I think "small" proposals like adding this or that package don't need to be defined that way 19:32:35 <ennael> and isos discussion may take some time :) 19:33:21 <ennael> it's not forgotten 19:33:24 <marja> obgr_seneca: this was about avoiding nonfree firmware issues 19:33:31 <sebsebseb> leuhmanu: right got onto the page from that how to add a feature :) 19:33:56 <sebsebseb> so I need to put my proposals on there before Wednesday I guess, then it's voting on features? 19:37:41 <obgr_seneca> sebsebseb: but do consider, any proposal needs people to work on, so just asking for a feature is only have the work 19:37:54 <obgr_seneca> shall we gon on or are there other comments? 19:38:09 <sebsebseb> obgr_seneca: yep I know can ask for a feature, but won't be done, unless a packager wants to provide it as well 19:38:23 <sebsebseb> even if there is quite a bit of user demand for it 19:38:35 <sebsebseb> Mageia users that is, or potenial users 19:38:44 <ennael> well whatever the way proposals are made it will always be the same pb in the end 19:39:00 <sebsebseb> that someone needs to maintain it? yep 19:39:39 <ennael> ok let switch to next topic 19:39:43 <sebsebseb> yep :) 19:39:56 <ennael> as a side note planning of Mageia 3 was published today on Mageia blog 19:40:04 <sebsebseb> yep I saw that 19:40:18 <sebsebseb> however I think for Gnome 3.8, it has to be released in April, anyway ok next topic :D 19:41:22 <ennael> #topic Mageia 2 issues 19:41:27 <ennael> ok marja ? 19:41:34 <ennael> can you explain it? 19:41:53 <marja> ennael: the forums issues 19:42:00 <ennael> yes please 19:42:04 <marja> doktor5000: do you want to explain? 19:42:06 <doktor5000> marja: may i? 19:42:10 <doktor5000> ahh yes 19:42:11 <marja> yes :) 19:42:59 <doktor5000> ok, so we had many issues with upgrades which were expected, many about nonfree firmwares and graphics drivers as documented in errata 19:43:07 <doktor5000> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia_2_Errata#Proprietary_graphics_card_drivers 19:43:28 <doktor5000> we should do something about that in installer, like ask users if they want nonfree stuff 19:43:49 <sebsebseb> Ubuntu do that, give users the option, than can have the MP3 codec and such installed 19:44:01 <doktor5000> AND the other issue was that the upgrade applet, which many users tried, doesn't use the currently enabled repos, this adds to the problem 19:44:27 <obgr_seneca> people can add repos in the installer, teh applet is another matter 19:44:52 <doktor5000> obgr_seneca: if a default install on most systems doesn't boot, that a serious issue IMHO 19:44:59 <obgr_seneca> and we did explaiun on the download page, that the dvd does only contain free stuff 19:45:42 <doktor5000> obgr_seneca: even fedora has a policy to use nonfree stuff where it leads to unusable systems, the workaround using vesa driver manually is not ok, or at least not properly 19:45:42 <obgr_seneca> doktor5000: I wouldn't say most systems, we got many reports about great work in the blog and elsewhere 19:45:56 <obgr_seneca> so it's just "the loud minority" imho 19:46:02 <doktor5000> pfff *sigh* whatever 19:46:18 <doktor5000> another big issue is https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia_2_Errata#Boot_fails_when_webdav.2C_sshfs_etc._entries_exist_in_fstab and that should have been caught 19:46:45 <marja> obgr_seneca: minority or not, a loud minority can damage how Mageia is seen 19:47:02 <doktor5000> unbootable system due to user-added filesystems, which can be easily fixed if you know the cause, but from the emergency shell that was hard to tell and hard to diagnose, even for me 19:47:38 <obgr_seneca> marja: of course, but we did call for testers several times and I am a bit mad with people not helping in tests but crying afterwards 19:47:57 <marja> obgr_seneca: remind me of this 19:48:11 <doktor5000> and the biggest one IMHO, is networking problems, due to many users who upgraded, having gotten networkmanager in parallel to net_applet, resulting in no wireless connection 19:49:01 <obgr_seneca> yep 19:49:08 <doktor5000> some of those threads are still ongoing without a clear solution, actually there i'd need some help from those who are experienced in networkmanager AND have an actual mga2 install AND who can help to get those issues fixed 19:49:34 <obgr_seneca> remind me to kill the next gnome dev I meet on the spot for adding nm as requirement! 19:50:03 <doktor5000> and a bug, which even adds to this, and was reported LONG before: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3344 19:50:05 <[mbot> [ Bug 3344 NetworkManager spawns a wpa_supplicant instead even if interface is unmanaged, conflicting with drakx-net tools ] 19:50:45 <doktor5000> so unless we don't get such issues ruled out for next release (unbootable systems, huge networking issues) we shouldn't even care to add much more new features, IMHO 19:51:29 <doktor5000> this seriously drags down or self-set quality standard, at least that's my humble opinion 19:51:39 <doktor5000> and i'm really humble ... :/ 19:51:49 <doktor5000> s/or/our/ 19:52:12 <ennael> ok about non-free stuff there is a topic pending on packagers side 19:52:29 <ennael> we need to finalize and it was something asking user for adding non-free repo 19:52:31 <doktor5000> so default installations may be ok, but there were a LOT of upgrade issues, we should try to lessen those for next release as much as we can 19:52:50 <obgr_seneca> +1 19:52:54 <doktor5000> ennael: that would be greatly appreciated surely 19:53:00 <obgr_seneca> but that means needing more people on qa 19:53:03 <sebsebseb> could always recommend to do clean installs instead 19:53:08 <sebsebseb> and make it clear to users 19:53:11 <ennael> then we have specific file systems and NM 19:53:11 <sebsebseb> I mean do that as well 19:53:24 <ennael> we can open 2 threads on -dev about that topics 19:53:25 * doktor5000 proposes to help next time if he isn't swamped that much with other stuff :/ 19:53:41 <ennael> I will mail just after about these one 19:53:55 <ennael> doktor5000: it will be short mails but start thread 19:54:03 <ennael> feel free to add as many information as needed 19:54:07 <ennael> does it sound ok ? 19:54:49 <doktor5000> ennael: more NM and improving wireless support overall, and for devices which have more than one driver ... 19:55:04 <obgr_seneca> #info network and update issues must be solved asap 19:55:29 <doktor5000> ennael: i'm quite lost at those driver/kernel things, and seems we nearly have only tmb working on that area for the major part, we should get more kernel/hardware guys 19:55:40 <doktor5000> ennael: just clone tmb ;) 19:55:52 <marja> grinz 19:56:03 <obgr_seneca> cp -a tmb tmb_2 19:56:04 <tmb> :) 19:56:07 <doktor5000> ennael: can we have that as #action, please? 19:56:09 <ennael> doktor5000: that's another pb :) 19:56:16 <doktor5000> :D 19:56:18 <ennael> which action 19:56:28 <marja> doktor5000: an action for cloning tmb? 19:56:38 <doktor5000> ennael: #action clone tmb 19:56:43 <ennael> tsss 19:56:51 <ennael> or cut him 19:56:58 <doktor5000> ennael: NOOOO 19:57:03 <ennael> ok 19:57:09 <ennael> anything else on that topic ? 19:57:57 <doktor5000> ennael: as a concensus, we should iron out the kinks for next release, keep quality high, and maybe not add to many features 19:58:17 <ennael> don't worry resources are limited :) 19:58:19 <doktor5000> ennael: as we already did a big switch to systemd, this may be easier now ... 19:58:42 <ennael> ok can we change topic ? 19:58:47 <sebsebseb> yep 19:58:49 <doktor5000> yep 19:58:53 <obgr_seneca> doktor5000: there's always another big switch coming arround the corner :-/ 19:59:46 <ennael> mmm 19:59:54 <ennael> what is next topic ? 19:59:57 * ennael is lost :p 20:00:06 <ennael> marja: I guess you had another one 20:00:10 <ennael> ah yes 20:00:11 <obgr_seneca> ennael: you only popsted those three 20:00:30 <ennael> #topic updates management through mgaonline 20:00:31 <marja> ennael: that was the one about most mentioned issues in the forum 20:00:40 <marja> ennael: but MrsB had one 20:00:44 <ennael> that one 20:00:57 <ennael> so are you all aware of that topic? 20:01:03 <marja> ennael: bug 2317 20:01:04 <sebsebseb> ennael: mrs will probably be here soon 20:01:07 <sebsebseb> mrsb 20:01:09 <sebsebseb> yep there she is 20:01:11 <ennael> ah :) 20:01:12 <sebsebseb> I got her to join 20:01:16 <marja> marja: just in time 20:01:19 <marja> oops 20:01:22 <ennael> MrsB: sorry for the mess :) 20:01:23 <marja> MrsB: just in time 20:01:26 <obgr_seneca> Good mornin g MrsB 20:01:27 <MrsB> am I late ;) 20:01:31 <sebsebseb> MrsB: yep 20:01:35 <MrsB> sorry, I just checked email 20:01:35 <marja> MrsB: it is bug 2317 time :) 20:01:42 <MrsB> ohhhh 20:01:42 <doktor5000> ennael: before i forget, here's a bug which may be the cause to many problems, but should be easy to fix: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=6114 20:01:44 <[mbot> [ Bug 6114 urpmi doesn't want to download packages into a user-owned folder ] 20:01:51 <sebsebseb> MrsB: 8pm our current time, these meetings 20:01:56 <ennael> doktor5000: after :) 20:01:58 <sebsebseb> MrsB: actsauly always about 8pm our time 20:02:05 <ennael> sebsebseb: please 20:02:07 <MrsB> yep, email said 10 :\ I just saw Anne's email 20:02:18 <MrsB> sorry to miss it 20:02:19 <ennael> MrsB: sorry... UTC time stroke again 20:02:23 <MrsB> :D 20:02:35 <ennael> MrsB: wo update that bug can you explain more your pov ? 20:02:42 <ennael> and why it's quite an emergency 20:03:20 <MrsB> 2317 is difficult for QA to work around. We have discovered several new scenarios where it occurs 20:04:04 <MrsB> It is likely also to affect backports, if they are set as update media and we don't know the affect it will have on the upgrade process with backports 20:04:37 <MrsB> It is going to be very difficult to keep track of it and to ensure all necessary packages are linked 20:04:49 <MrsB> if we don't catch them all then updates won't install 20:05:16 <MrsB> Our depcheck script is current;y not working properly due to a regression in urpmf 20:05:43 <MrsB> it can be altered to find the required links but not give the media they nee dlinking from 20:06:23 <MrsB> If it could be automated some way instead of fixing 2317 then that would help greatly 20:06:42 <MrsB> ideally though, especially with new people in QA, 2317 should be fixed 20:07:20 <DavidWHodgins> That still won't help for people who use any iso image to upgrade, and don't run urpmi --auto-select, which can't be done with any gui only method. 20:07:40 <MrsB> DavidWHodgins: hi, I didn't see you there 20:07:51 <DavidWHodgins> :-) 20:09:37 <MrsB> we've been petitioning for it to be addressed for a long time now and feel because we have been able to work around it mostly it has been largely forgotten and deemed less important. 20:09:50 <obgr_seneca> so, who could fix the problems here? tv? 20:11:11 <MrsB> I guess. I'm not really sure. It is MageiaUpdate which is affected 20:11:21 <ennael> maybe pterjan can help also, and blino 20:11:44 <obgr_seneca> so should we ping those three? 20:11:55 <ennael> yep 20:12:06 <MrsB> I know it's not very popular so I appologise for that 20:12:13 <obgr_seneca> I do see this is a problem, but we won't solve it by discussing here, will we? 20:12:19 <ennael> nope 20:12:20 <MrsB> it is important to a growing qa team though 20:12:21 <obgr_seneca> MrsB: And don't apologise 20:12:27 <ennael> MrsB: that's not the pb 20:14:08 <ennael> #action mail people about mgaonline so that updates can be properly managed 20:14:15 <obgr_seneca> #action ping tv, pterjan and blino about bug #2317 20:14:21 <obgr_seneca> #undo 20:14:21 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x8454aec> 20:14:29 <ennael> erf :) 20:14:43 <obgr_seneca> ennael: you were faster! 20:14:47 <MrsB> if we could automate the dependency checks, maybe adapt the depcheck script, so it was done automatically at push or something it would help the situatioon if 2317 can't be fixed right now 20:14:58 <MrsB> -o 20:15:36 <ennael> #action work on a workaround for now to automate the dependency checks so it's done automatically when pushing updates 20:15:52 <MrsB> :) thankyou 20:16:07 <obgr_seneca> MrsB: Where can that dep check script be found? 20:16:14 <MrsB> I attached it to the bug 20:16:47 <MrsB> it doesn't show the links required atm due to the urpmf bug but there is an echo commented out which can be uncommented to show them 20:16:50 <obgr_seneca> #info dep check script is attached to the bug 20:17:34 <DavidWHodgins> https://bugs.mageia.org/attachment.cgi?id=2432 20:17:44 <MrsB> thanks Dave 20:18:26 <obgr_seneca> ok, anything to add? 20:18:38 <MrsB> were backports discussed? 20:18:47 <MrsB> stormi had some points he asked me to mention 20:18:56 <ennael> ok 20:19:00 <ennael> last topic then 20:19:15 <ennael> #topic backports setup 20:19:32 <MrsB> can I paste his comments? 20:19:40 <ennael> so QA team agreed on testing backports, pacakgers are waiting for infrastructure 20:19:53 <marja> MrsB: fine with me 20:19:53 <ennael> boklm: ping ? 20:19:59 <ennael> MrsB: 2 sec please 20:20:01 <boklm> pong 20:20:02 <MrsB> k 20:20:38 <ennael> boklm: any ETA on backports implementation ? 20:20:55 <boklm> we should enable them soon 20:21:02 <boklm> I will try to check this tomorrow 20:21:16 <ennael> great tahnks for that 20:21:17 <ennael> :) 20:21:34 <tmb> I think we need to finalize backports policy before opening it... 20:21:50 <ennael> tmb: I was just asking for technical setup 20:21:55 <ennael> MrsB: your turn ? 20:22:10 <MrsB> I'll paste his comments if that is ok 20:22:22 <ennael> yep 20:22:29 <MrsB> <stormi> my opinion is that we must either : 20:22:42 <MrsB> <stormi> - take backports into account during upgrade (preferred for users, not preferred for devs) 20:22:54 <MrsB> <stormi> - declare that any backport installed after N+1 release can prevent upgrade, and detect it in upgrader 20:23:04 <MrsB> <stormi> and that we must not: 20:23:16 <MrsB> <stormi> - stop supporting backports in Mageia N after Mageia N+1 is released 20:23:30 * blingme wanted to reply on this thread on the ml, but I think we are over-engineering this 20:23:59 <MrsB> <stormi> and also that there must be notifications for newer backports for packages you installed from backports 20:24:20 <DavidWHodgins> Current iso images will not work, for upgrading, if Mageia 1 backports include anything that the iso has versioned requires on. 20:24:41 <ennael> blingme: ? 20:25:20 <blingme> having pushed about 20 releases of openldap to backports for Mandriva, there was only ever once an issue, and never an upgrade problem 20:25:43 <blingme> (noting, that at most times, I was pushing to *3* or more releases, as many as were active) 20:25:53 <ennael> and openldap can be quite sensitive package on a system 20:26:22 <blingme> Just add notes for people using backports, that if they don't keep the repo enabled, they should 'urpmi --auto-select --searchmedia Backports' after an upgrade 20:26:51 <DavidWHodgins> And not to be surprised, if some transactions fail, during the upgrade. 20:26:55 <blingme> (there was *one* issue with openldap in backports, caused by a NMU) 20:27:12 <ennael> blingme: can you add this in wiki ? 20:27:12 <blingme> DavidWHodgins: of course, but really, how serious is it going to be? 20:27:32 <DavidWHodgins> Depends on if it causes a urpmi cascade error. 20:27:36 <blingme> it's not like we're going to push glibc-3 to backports 20:27:46 <DavidWHodgins> What about kernel? 20:27:51 <blingme> DavidWHodgins: provide a bug reference (on Mandriva bugzilla is fine) 20:28:10 <blingme> DavidWHodgins: tmb has been pushing kernels to backports on a bi-weekly basis for years 20:28:16 <boklm> we can have a tool that indicate the list of packages installed more recent than the versions available on enabled repositories, so that people can revert to repository version 20:28:33 <DavidWHodgins> I don't have a current bug report, just thinking about bug 2317, and the types of problems I've seen because of it. 20:28:49 <blingme> boklm: I already proposed some changes to rpmdrake, that, while not exclusively for this, could provide this feature 20:28:53 <MrsB> I think it's also important for users to be able to update backports, and know when an update is available 20:29:08 <DavidWHodgins> blingme: But, as far as I know, upgrading wasn't supported, if backports were enabled. 20:29:10 <blingme> MrsB: AFAIK that is already available for advanced users 20:29:39 <blingme> DavidWHodgins: sure, it's not supported, but I haven't personally seen it break, and of course the intention isn't to ensure it doesn't work 20:29:57 <MrsB> it is, as long as backports are left enabled, which means every backport will appear as an update 20:29:59 <tmb> just as a small note, the trouble with doing an "'urpmi --auto-select --searchmedia Backports'" is that it will upgrade all packages it finds there, and that's not necessary what the user wants after a distro upgrade 20:30:43 <blingme> tmb: sorry, I should have been clear that the list of packages should be reviewed, and possibly manually selected 20:30:58 <blingme> http://www.google.com/search?q=main%2Fbackports+openldap+site%3Alists.mandriva.com 20:30:59 <[mbot> [ main/backports openldap site:lists.mandriva.com - Google-Suche ] 20:31:27 <blingme> (I did try and send a mail, but we have some MTA problems our mail team needs to take care of urgently ...) 20:32:11 <tmb> blingme: ah, ok. 20:32:47 <MrsB> our users are not all going to be knowledgable enough to do that, they will want the new gimp etc but not in a position to select backported libs and openldap's 20:33:27 <blingme> MrsB: right, thus the wiki should have a disclaimer, that if you aren't comfortable with urpmi ... you should carefully consider if using backports extensively is for you. 20:33:44 <MrsB> why are we bothering with qa testing then :\ 20:33:48 <blingme> e.g., I don't enable backports on my wife's laptop ... 20:34:07 <blingme> well, that was why I was wondering why QA was blocking backports ... 20:34:24 <blingme> (but, then, I didn't really have problems with the way Mandriva handled backports) 20:34:33 <MrsB> It isn't so much using the backport media which is the problem, it is having to manually select backport updates from normal updates 20:34:41 <MrsB> qa weren't blocking backports afaik 20:34:47 <MrsB> ... 20:34:58 <blingme> right, and that isn't a process issue, it's a feature we should look into for rpmdrake 20:35:03 <tmb> as for "downgrading packages" we hits the next problem, and that it needs stricter versioned requires in packages , and many packages currently use ">=" thinking of upgrade only 20:35:10 <blingme> at which point, we could remove the disclaimer 20:35:55 <blingme> (I sent a mail with a propsal that rpmdrake, for a specific package, show all the versions available in all repos, and allow the user to select a specific one, not just the latest) 20:36:36 <blingme> (actually, this is more of a problem for tainted/updates than backports, but the same issues mostly apply) 20:37:40 <MrsB> i think if we reach a situation where installing a backport is risky then we've failed at backports 20:38:24 <DavidWHodgins> I think our testing can make sure it isn't risky for the current release, but can't make sure it won't affect upgrading later. 20:38:38 <MrsB> that could be my inner qa coming out :) 20:38:39 <doktor5000> ennael: somehow related (rpmdrake/urpmi coding), seems Thierry was/is absent for quite some time ... :/ 20:39:07 <ennael> doktor5000: no 20:39:17 <leuhmanu> thierry commited for 2 hours 20:39:40 <ennael> tmb: anything else to add on this.? 20:40:56 <tmb> nope, nothing besides just that all of this shows we need a clear backports policy before opening it... 20:41:08 <ennael> yep 20:41:24 <ennael> can we sump up all this in a mail before going on discussion? 20:41:29 <MrsB> We need to make sure our users understand how to use them too. 20:41:38 <ennael> I'm sorry on my side I'm a bit lost and tired :) 20:41:38 <tmb> as we still have several views of what backports is / should be 20:41:45 <tmb> MrsB: yep. 20:41:50 <blingme> IMHO, there is very little value (to me) if we only have backports for one release at a time ... 20:41:58 <ennael> I agree too 20:42:10 <ennael> I have a concrete example on my side 20:42:19 <ennael> a client needing backports on Mageia 1 20:42:36 <blingme> and I would prefer not to have to babysit 3 builds in order to actually get the package into the release where I actually *need* the package myself 20:43:04 <ennael> ok who would like to sum up this in a mail ? 20:46:43 <blingme> I would offer, but I have email problems sending from the address I am subscribed on ... 20:46:57 <DavidWHodgins> I think we need a thread started to work out the procedures, rather then a sumary of what's been said here. 20:47:02 <ennael> we can change it if needed 20:47:05 <tmb> well, technically this is still being discussed somewhat on ml, but... 20:47:09 <tmb> #action tmb will try to sum up backports in a mail to -dev 20:47:14 <ennael> thanks :) 20:47:30 <ennael> blingme: please try to answer on this thread 20:47:42 <ennael> your experience is also important to take the right decisions 20:48:20 <blingme> blingme: In order to do so, I need to fix or help fix MTAs for a 600 000 mailbox environment :-( 20:48:39 <ennael> ah blingme il also bugged :) 20:50:31 <ennael> ok can we fix a deadline for this discussion 20:50:39 <ennael> so that it does not take another year :) 20:51:41 <MrsB> end of the week? 20:52:06 <ennael> yep sounds reasonable 20:52:11 <tmb> blingme: I can probably open up a smtp with auth for you if needed (meaning for you personally, not for all 600.000) :) 20:52:29 <ennael> :) 20:52:47 <ennael> #action deadline for backport policy discussion is end of this week 20:52:58 <ennael> ok anything else to add ? 20:53:03 <blingme> tmb: I should be able to via zarb, but last time I tried (briefly, was in a rush) it didn't work 20:53:39 <tmb> it will probably take until tomorrow before I send the mail to -dev ... 20:54:04 <MrsB> I have another topic, it's a brief one tho 20:54:15 <ennael> tmb: ok then 20:54:22 <ennael> MrsB: which is ? 20:54:24 <tmb> blingme: ah, ok. in other case ping me and I'll get you access 20:54:46 <MrsB> We're now using bugs which include updates for both releases.. 20:54:53 <ennael> wait 20:54:58 <MrsB> there is no way on bugzilla to show they are for both though 20:54:59 <MrsB> k 20:55:09 <ennael> #topic updates management in Bugzilla 20:55:18 <ennael> shoot :) 20:55:27 <MrsB> We're now using bugs which include updates for both releases.. 20:55:33 <MrsB> there is no way on bugzilla to show they are for both though 20:55:38 <marja> MrsB: that is possible in new Bugzilla 20:55:46 <marja> after upgrade 20:56:00 <DavidWHodgins> Timeframe? 20:56:25 <marja> dmorgan asked in january for help on the sysadmin ml 20:56:42 <ennael> boklm answered this afternoon 20:56:49 <marja> boklm said recently it was planned for after Mga 2 release 20:56:50 <MrsB> Should we add a 1& 2 'version' to current bugzilla in the mean time? 20:56:53 <ennael> so maybe we can start on sysadmin list for now 20:57:53 <ennael> #info Bugzilla update is needed, which is planned in coming days/weeks 20:58:09 <marja> MrsB: but then bugsquad has "cauldron & 2" bugs 20:58:12 <leuhmanu> /months 20:58:21 <ennael> leuhmanu: please 20:58:40 <marja> MrsB: and I think we even have some "cauldron & 1 & 2" 20:58:50 <MrsB> Is there another way we could handle it temporarily? 20:59:03 <MrsB> I mention it here because it would need packager cooperation 20:59:38 <MrsB> maybe a keyword? 21:00:32 <marja> MrsB: bugsquad started setting highest version (cauldron>2>1)..... if a bug get fixed for highest version, the one but highest should be set...... the whiteboard we use for "MGA2TOO" 21:00:38 <leuhmanu> you have a tempoty solution yet no ? 21:00:43 <marja> MrsB: or "MGA1TOO" 21:01:13 <MrsB> Ok whiteboard would do 21:01:22 <ennael> ok 21:01:26 <ennael> as a reminder 21:01:27 <ennael> https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-sysadm/2012-June/004477.html 21:01:28 <[mbot> [ [Mageia-sysadm] New Bugzilla maintainer? ] 21:01:56 <ennael> ok any other topic for tonight 21:01:57 <ennael> ? 21:02:30 <marja> not here 21:02:36 <MrsB> ennael: this would need packagers to apply the whiteboard keyword when they created update bug reports for two releases 21:02:48 <ennael> yep ok 21:02:53 <MrsB> thanks :) 21:02:56 <ennael> please mail -dev for this 21:03:03 <MrsB> ok 21:03:05 <ennael> we will add this to packagers meeting for memory 21:03:13 <MrsB> I'll try to attend 21:03:17 <ennael> ok 21:03:30 <ennael> can we close meeting ? 21:03:38 * marja started adding (MGA2) to installer cauldron bugs 21:03:52 <tmb> yep 21:03:53 <MrsB> yes, sorry to keep finding things 21:04:07 <marja> only to show that the problem was last seen in MGA2 21:04:27 <ennael> ok let close meeting before marja finds 2 or 3 other topics :) 21:04:30 <ennael> #endmeeting