19:10:11 <ennael> #startmeeting 19:10:11 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Mon Sep 26 19:10:11 2011 UTC. The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:10:11 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:10:26 <ennael> #topic wiki migration 19:10:31 <ennael> so 19:10:57 <ennael> did you check in your teams you have 1 or 2 guys as a contact ? 19:12:09 <Stormi> yes 19:13:07 <leuhmanu> yep 19:13:19 <ennael> can we have names ? 19:13:24 <ennael> so for triage 19:14:17 <leuhmanu> Marja van Waes and me 19:14:51 <Stormi> Claire Robinson for QA (MrsB on irc, login claire) + I think we can add myself and coincoin (if you want to work on it) 19:15:32 <ennael> ok 19:15:44 <ennael> for packagers we have andre999 and doktor5000 19:16:20 <ennael> anybody for sysadmins ? 19:16:25 <coincoin> Stormi: yep sure, I would like to work on it, I will find time 19:17:24 <leuhmanu> (you can also add remmy for triage :) ) 19:17:37 <misc> ennael: no one answered to the mail of boklm 19:17:54 <misc> ( and I just read it 30 secondes ago :/ ) 19:19:13 <boklm> it can be me for sysadmin (as no one answered) 19:19:30 <ennael> ok it can change after 19:20:56 <ennael> ok 19:22:47 <ennael> http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=web:wiki#teams_contacts_for_wiki 19:23:01 <ennael> this page has been written by andre999 19:23:22 <ennael> even if all is not ok it gives some kind of structure for general information 19:25:30 <ennael> so what we need now is to write down wiki rules 19:25:37 <ennael> at least the basic one 19:26:22 <misc> "first rule : we do not talk about the wiki club" 19:26:30 <boklm> :) 19:26:38 <misc> "Fourth rule : if this is your first night at the wiki club, you have to write a wiki page" 19:27:03 <ennael> could be :) 19:27:09 <misc> maybe we could try to see f there is rules we can reuse from others projects ? 19:27:55 <misc> ( and I guess the main problem we will have will be around : arbitration, naming of page, when something should be deleted, and what can be placed on the wiki ? ) 19:27:55 <ennael> yep 19:28:15 <ennael> was thinking about page naming and categories 19:28:22 <ennael> we cannot start without formal rules 19:31:17 <ennael> http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=web:wiki#formal_rules 19:31:47 <boklm> should we use flat namespace, and use categories to organise pages ? 19:32:52 <ennael> any idea on this? (I don't on my side) 19:33:58 <misc> I think that's a detail, as long as we can 1) get a useful first page and 2) proper research, that should be ok 19:34:35 <Stormi> I think we don't have to clutter page names with category information 19:35:08 <Stormi> so simple page names and links between them 19:35:16 * boklm agree 19:35:47 <ennael> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Wiki_structure 19:36:01 <ennael> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Help:Categories 19:36:03 <ennael> fyi 19:39:11 <boklm> should we discuss this in a mailing list ? 19:39:32 <ennael> maybe...if it does not end in endless discussion 19:40:05 <misc> we should find a way to monetize the endless nature of discussion 19:40:14 <misc> like pay per word posted, something like that 19:40:24 <ennael> we cna launch discussion until thursday for example 19:40:40 <ennael> and take decision by the end of this day 19:41:06 <ennael> meanwhile each team can work on its own to provide a structure for its own team 19:43:27 <misc> #action team should work on a structure for the wiki 19:44:06 <ennael> I will send an email to council for these teams 19:45:12 <Stormi> about the fomal rules, if we really want the discussion to go somewhere, someone (not me) should first make a proposal and present it 19:45:33 <Stormi> maybe using the fedora rules as a basis 19:45:54 <Stormi> unless we already consider those to be *the proposal* 19:47:06 <ennael> good idea 19:47:25 <ennael> volunteer ? :) 19:48:51 <boklm> so we can take fedora rules as a proposal, and see if we need to change something ? 19:48:59 <ennael> yep 19:49:24 <ennael> who should we mail to speak about this ? 19:49:29 <ennael> council ? 19:49:55 <Stormi> also those who will do the migration 19:50:52 <ennael> boklm: can you handle this? 19:50:55 <ennael> send the email 19:50:56 <boklm> maybe we can use doc team mailing list ? 19:51:08 <Stormi> indeed 19:51:12 <boklm> and ask everybody helping on this to join this mailing list ? 19:51:30 <ennael> may take time 19:52:08 <ennael> we need to ping them 19:53:23 <boklm> so where should we do this ? 19:54:10 <ennael> well we can create ML and send an email to council and all the contacts to ask register to it 19:54:23 <boklm> an new ML for this ? 19:54:30 <ennael> then we post on it tomorrow evening 19:54:33 <ennael> doc team ML 19:54:35 <boklm> 21:53 < boklm> so where should we do this ? 19:54:35 <boklm> 21:54 < ennael> well we can create ML and send an email to council and all the contacts to ask register to it 19:54:38 <boklm> 21:54 < boklm> an new ML for this ? 19:54:41 <boklm> 21:54 < ennael> then we post on it tomorrow evening 19:54:44 <boklm> oops 19:54:46 <boklm> doc team ML is already created 19:54:53 <ennael> oups 19:54:58 <ennael> touchpad \o/ 19:55:01 <boklm> :) 19:55:01 <ennael> hum sorry 19:55:20 <ennael> ok then I mail people interested in discussion tonight 19:55:21 <boklm> we can sand email to everybody, with doc team ml in copy 19:55:39 <boklm> you do it ? 19:56:08 <ennael> yep 19:56:20 <ennael> they have to register if they want to speak about it 19:56:48 <ennael> and final decision will be taken on 29th 19:57:05 <ennael> but you can do it if you want 19:57:28 <ennael> it's better for my todo list :) 19:57:39 <boklm> ok 19:57:41 <ennael> thanks 20:01:03 <leuhmanu> little question: what about localised ml like discuss-{fr,de,pl,...} ? 20:01:15 <leuhmanu> http://www.mageialinux-online.org/forum/topic-11257-0-112700+pourquoi-pas-de-liste-de-diffusion-mageia-fr.php#m112700 for french speaker 20:01:50 <ennael> can we speak about it after wiki ? 20:02:03 <leuhmanu> yes sorry 20:02:18 <ennael> thanks :) 20:02:45 <ennael> so I send a mail also for each teams so that they can start working on wiki pages organization 20:05:22 <ennael> on technical side, is everything ready ? 20:05:49 <boklm> misc: ? 20:06:17 <misc> still the same as before 20:06:32 <misc> ie, nothing was done for acl, nor migration to newer version 20:06:52 <boklm> do we need acl ? 20:07:28 <misc> unless we want everybody to be able to delete a page, yes 20:07:55 <rda> we can restrict the page deletion to bureaucrats (super admin group IIRC) 20:08:21 <ennael> I guess this is what is suggested in fedora page 20:08:27 <rda> I'm not sure we need further distinction than that 20:08:43 <ennael> yep 20:08:47 <ennael> do it simple imho 20:08:59 <ennael> managing acls in mediawiki is just a nightmare 20:09:03 <misc> well, that was the plan ie map the acl to the doc team ldap group 20:09:10 <misc> the problem is just to do it 20:09:27 <misc> as I said before, the integration with ldap is done 20:09:42 <ennael> for authentication 20:10:07 <ennael> ? 20:10:18 <misc> for authentication 20:10:27 <ennael> ok 20:10:42 <misc> now, we just need to do the autorisation part, ie saying "this ldap group" is for bureauucrat" 20:11:29 <ennael> what about starting with manual list in between 20:11:49 <misc> ennael: if you wolunteer to sync , no problem for me 20:12:16 <ennael> manual list meaning not ldap group but some people to start with 20:12:29 <ennael> otherwise we will not have wiki before some months 20:12:36 <misc> I do not care much at all 20:12:41 <ennael> ok 20:13:03 <ennael> so let start with it 20:13:09 <boklm> and is there problem with migration to newer version ? 20:13:37 <boklm> (other than someone has to do it) 20:13:43 <ennael> :) 20:14:20 <misc> nothing more than what I said before : the whole setup was rewritten from scratch and announced 2 days after i finished the work on n-1 20:14:36 * boklm forgot what was said before 20:15:07 <boklm> ok 20:15:39 <misc> ( now, maybe there is more issue than that, something that was not discovered yet ) 20:15:59 <misc> ( like incompatibilities at php/mysql or whatever level, but I doubt ) 20:17:34 <ennael> ok can we have a status on this in coming days ? 20:18:06 <misc> not from me, I will be out of town until end of the week starting from tomorow 20:18:23 <misc> ( unless you want a status to be "same as last week", in which case I can do it ) 20:19:12 <ennael> come on... 20:19:18 <ennael> boklm: time for it ? 20:20:08 * boklm can look, but not sure to have a lot of time 20:20:20 <misc> ennael: but it should technically work fine, provided we didn't radically change our servers 20:20:38 <ennael> ok let see then for end of week depending on needed time 20:20:44 <ennael> anything else to add on wiki ? 20:21:49 <boklm> not for me 20:22:08 <ennael> ok 20:22:11 <ennael> other topic ? 20:22:24 <boklm> discuss-* ml ? 20:22:31 <leuhmanu> ah yes 20:22:38 <ennael> #chair leuhmanu 20:22:38 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: ennael leuhmanu 20:22:49 <ennael> #topic localized discuss ML 20:22:53 <ennael> leuhmanu: your turn 20:23:20 <leuhmanu> I have seen that today: http://www.mageialinux-online.org/forum/topic-11257+pourquoi-pas-de-liste-de-diffusion-mageia-fr.php 20:24:19 <leuhmanu> there is a request for localised ml 20:24:41 <leuhmanu> like debutant@ by mdv 20:24:42 <boklm> so discussion mailing lists for users that don't like forums ? 20:24:53 <leuhmanu> yes :) 20:24:59 <misc> leuhmanu: the question was already asked 20:25:05 <leuhmanu> yes I know 20:25:18 * boklm would agree to create this 20:25:34 <boklm> if enough people is interested to use it 20:25:35 * misc would prefer to not create yet another epty list 20:25:45 <misc> ( like half of the i18n list :/ ) 20:25:45 <leuhmanu> why empty ? 20:26:07 <misc> because people ask for a list, send 3 emails per weeks 20:26:27 <misc> and then some months later, someone subscribe, send a email do not get answer and conclude "mageia sux" 20:26:37 <misc> or see the list of lists, and conclude "that's a mess" 20:26:43 <leuhmanu> ah :/ 20:26:48 <misc> but that's just my opinion 20:27:28 <misc> ( ie, that we should make sure to have a commitement from enough people, but we didn't defined "enough" clearly ) 20:28:01 <leuhmanu> So I ask for more information, and let's see next week ? 20:28:24 <boklm> it seems there is a lot of discussions on debutant@ ml for mandriva 20:28:56 <boklm> http://lists.mandriva.com/debutant/2011-09/ 20:29:50 <misc> another issue is that it create a divide in community 20:30:17 <rda> there already is a divide (language) 20:30:20 <misc> but I already stated my opinion several time, so restating this yet another time would not help to achieve anything constructive 20:30:27 <ennael> well people who cannot speak english are outside community anyway 20:30:32 <rda> ennael: :) 20:30:44 <misc> ennael: i was speaking about french forum vs french ml 20:30:50 <rda> ah 20:30:53 <leuhmanu> misc: yes sure.. 20:30:54 <misc> ie, there is 2 separate group that do not talk to each others 20:31:54 <leuhmanu> I try sometime do to that by mlo but it's hard 20:32:04 <leuhmanu> and that is not the subject :p 20:32:52 <misc> maybe we can also say that no matter what we do, the 2 group will be separate and all attempt to unify this are futile 20:33:11 <misc> and as long it doesn't end like in Gaza, that's not a problem 20:33:25 <boklm> people can use both forums and mailing lists 20:33:45 <misc> then they can also use only one I guess 20:34:09 <boklm> or they can use nothing 20:35:04 <misc> ( and also, if we want to have user representation, I fear that having 2 community is going to make thing slightly more complex ) 20:35:26 <boklm> it's not 2 communities 20:35:37 <leuhmanu> why two ? 20:35:57 <misc> because in practice, if we need to discuss with users, we have to discuss on ml 20:36:01 <misc> and on forums 20:37:01 <boklm> or only on forums, or only on forums 20:37:15 <boklm> or only on forums, or only on ml 20:37:30 <misc> but then people on the not used media will feel excluded, i guess ( maybe I am wrong of course ) 20:37:49 <boklm> I'm not sure that people on debutant@ ml feel excluded 20:38:45 <misc> did they participate in assembly ? 20:38:57 <ennael> nobody participated in assembly 20:39:28 <leuhmanu> debutant is just an support ml if I'am not wrong 20:40:16 <misc> leuhmanu: yes, and that's where we can find users, and we said that we would communicate with them 20:40:31 <boklm> we communicate with them using the blog 20:40:40 <ennael> we can also say communication will be done on forums only 20:40:46 <ennael> ML is only for support 20:40:52 <ennael> just a proposal 20:40:55 <boklm> yes 20:41:26 <ennael> but it would be nice also to check there is somebody to make this ML alive 20:42:01 <misc> ennael: we did the contrary for the release cycle ( "relay on forums, but please discuss on ml" ), and the proposal was not really followed by all 20:42:01 <boklm> maybe we can ask those people asking for the list 20:42:22 <ennael> leuhmanu: can you ask them first 20:42:22 <ennael> ? 20:42:31 <leuhmanu> yes 20:42:40 <ennael> and let us know then 20:45:17 <ennael> ok anything else ? 20:45:54 <misc> not from me 20:45:58 <boklm> not from me 20:46:08 <leuhmanu> not from me 20:46:14 <ennael> ok thanks all 20:46:20 <ennael> #endmeeting