18:04:30 <misc> #startmeeting 18:04:30 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Mon Oct 18 18:04:30 2010 UTC. The chair is misc. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:04:30 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:04:36 <misc> #meetingname Founders meeting 18:04:36 <Inigo_Montoya> The meeting name has been set to 'founders_meeting' 18:04:48 <misc> #chair misc ennael 18:04:48 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: ennael misc 18:05:01 <misc> #topic hosting 18:05:08 <misc> ennael, you may start 18:05:12 <ennael> ok 18:05:20 <misc> 'hosting organization, first expenses (anne, boklm dams)' in fact 18:05:38 <ennael> so as you may have seen, we have now a full hosting solution 18:05:57 <ennael> ielo.net will sponsorise all hosting cost for all of our servers 18:06:26 <wobo> 3 cheers to ielo.net! 18:06:28 <ennael> the thing now is to bring the server to datacenter which is in Marseille (south of france) 18:06:32 <ennael> yes :) 18:06:40 <ennael> it's about 900 km from paris 18:07:16 <ennael> so damsweb and boklm are looking for power switch to be able to manage reboot 18:07:28 <ennael> also ielo.net can change disks if needed 18:07:33 <misc> no IPMI on the server ? 18:07:43 <ennael> finally maat|alt is ok to help us if needed 18:07:51 <maat|alt> yup 18:07:52 <ennael> he lives at 40 km from datacenter 18:08:14 <ennael> so first expenses for now will be to change all disks on servers 18:08:19 <ennael> to avoid any pb 18:08:27 <ennael> buy a power switch 18:08:39 <misc> #info servers need to be moved to marseille in ielo.net datacenter, 900 km from paris 18:08:40 <ennael> and pay for travel for 3 guys 18:08:48 <ennael> misc, boklm and damsweb 18:09:00 <ennael> we need also to buy a backup server 18:09:19 <ennael> so DD + power switch + server should be about 2500 € 18:10:10 <misc> #info we need to buy some hardware ( hardrive, power switch by ethernet, a backup server), for 2500 e 18:10:16 <ennael> damsweb plans to buy disks tomorrow 18:10:34 <ennael> and install servers with boklm on wednesday 18:10:52 <ennael> if it's possible they will leave thursday to Marseille 18:11:02 <ennael> and finalize installation in datacenter on friday 18:11:16 <ennael> this is the first plan 18:11:29 <ennael> now we have big strikes in france and gasolin is missing... 18:11:41 <misc> and there is even bigger strike in Marseille 18:11:41 <ennael> so all will depend on how we can manage travel 18:12:50 <misc> for the backup server, I assume it will not be ready for the end of the week, what is the plan ? 18:13:20 <ennael> looks like damsweb knows somebody who is going back to marseille in 3 weeks 18:13:33 <ennael> so we could install it and she will bring it in marseille 18:13:40 <ennael> maat|alt could install it then 18:13:44 <ennael> if he is ok 18:14:12 <maat|alt> i'll force him to cooperate if needed ;) 18:14:37 <misc> well, how long does it take to be bought ( given the strike ), is it easy to move ( cause I fear the size of a beast with lots of disk ) 18:15:11 <misc> and since we do not have yet a bank account, how can this be payed without legal problem ? 18:15:53 <ennael> I spoke with regine from AUFML 18:16:04 <ennael> she told me she will manage this 18:16:14 <ennael> the only thing we have to do is to keep all documents 18:16:20 <ennael> so no pb on that side 18:16:21 <misc> ok 18:16:47 <misc> but my main issue will be with the weight 18:17:01 <ennael> in car ? 18:18:10 <misc> depend on the car, on the server, but I guess that's up to damsweb to take care of this 18:18:25 <ennael> yep 18:18:32 <ennael> we will rent a car for this 18:18:51 <ennael> we found some cheap price for this 18:19:32 <ennael> ah speaking about duck 18:19:44 <coincoin> hello all, sorry to be late (subway #13 is a pain) 18:19:44 <ennael> coincoin: what about servers weight in car ? 18:20:19 <coling> cool. That sounds like it's all in hand (more or less). Thanks to misc damsweb and boklm for the work needed to install+install physically. 18:20:23 <coincoin> ennael: will be ok, arround 10 kg each server 18:20:52 <coincoin> and we have 4 servers so... 18:21:03 <misc> only ? 18:21:42 <coincoin> yes, as written on the wiki 18:22:02 <coincoin> + 2 VMs (gandi) and 1 server to buy for backup 18:22:50 <misc> ok, i tought the 6U would be much heavier than that 18:23:12 <coincoin> we don't have any 6U anymore 18:23:32 <coincoin> but yes, the 6U were 40kg each one 18:24:10 <misc> good, I didn't dream last time I had to rack a server :) 18:24:24 <ennael> :) 18:24:27 <coincoin> :) 18:24:40 <misc> so anything to add on this topic ? 18:25:07 <ennael> I guess not 18:25:26 <ennael> coincoin will mail to inform about Marseille travel ok ? 18:25:53 <coincoin> yes, I just have to be sure with my "cousine" first ;) 18:26:08 <coincoin> she called me tonight, I must phone her again after the meeting 18:26:19 <misc> #action coincoin take care of the travel 18:26:26 <ennael> ok 18:26:33 <misc> so, next topic, ldap 18:26:42 <misc> #topic LDAP and GUI for registration 18:26:50 <misc> bgmilne, maat ? 18:26:50 <ennael> unfortunatelly seems buchan is not there 18:27:02 <coling> Indeed, could be a short topic :D 18:27:13 <ennael> can we postpone for now ? 18:27:16 <misc> we can 18:27:18 <ennael> maybe he will appear 18:27:23 <misc> #info topic postpone for the moment 18:27:39 <misc> #topic first official pieces/tendances for Mageia roadmap 18:27:46 <misc> ( this one is gonna take time I fear ) 18:28:16 <misc> ennael: no one was listed, so it is up to you :) 18:28:16 <ennael> yep 18:28:17 <rda> :) 18:28:49 <ennael> well I listed it as many discussions are implying roadmap and I guess we should have some official position 18:29:00 <ennael> at least think about it this week 18:29:29 <misc> well, I think that "first, let's setup the infra, then discuss" would have been a good roadmap :) 18:30:16 <ennael> why do we need to wait for infra ? 18:30:19 <tmb> yeah, but the users want something to debate :) 18:30:21 <ennael> as it's on the way 18:30:23 <rda> misc: yep, however, you see how discussions are going :) 18:30:32 <misc> like intel proc, it seems that most people use OoOE 18:31:11 <misc> ennael: by infra, I mean the whole system, ie once we have lists, and a release out there 18:31:35 <ennael> I mean have a plan for 6 coming months 18:31:50 <rda> and laying down topics for improvements for the next months. 18:32:00 <rda> (topics, formal procedures) 18:32:12 <ennael> we need to give some answers about what software to be included in diostro 18:32:13 <rda> so, if we were to detail a roadmap until, say, end of december? 18:32:15 <ennael> licenses, .... 18:32:34 <rda> this, for instance, could be designed before releasing an ISO: http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=policies 18:33:01 <wobo> roadmap depends on ressources. We will know all ressources not before we need them, so a real roadmap is not possible before that. 18:33:25 <misc> rda: designed before, or designed in th same time ( ie, in a decoralated way, side by side ) ? 18:33:35 <rda> misc: side by side. 18:33:44 <misc> k 18:34:11 <misc> so by roadmap, you mean more a task list ? 18:34:37 <ennael> if you want 18:34:44 <rda> yes, plus tasks more specific to teams, plus expectations for the december iso ? 18:34:49 <ennael> what people can expect in 6 coming months 18:35:33 <misc> so, the big question is "who write it" ? 18:36:39 <ennael> we should be several guys on it 18:37:00 <coincoin> I'm ok to take part on this group 18:37:09 <misc> ideally, each team could take care of the roadmap part of the team ? 18:37:12 <coincoin> I hope I won't be alone :p 18:37:26 <ennael> we need all teams 18:37:32 <ennael> not only us 18:37:34 <misc> yeah 18:38:21 <misc> well, I would maybe help, but I am not sure that I can find much time for this :/ 18:38:48 <misc> but i am ok to help for the packaging part and so on 18:39:05 <ennael> I can help also 18:39:08 <rda> I can help too 18:39:14 <ennael> rda: we need a mkting guy 18:39:20 <rda> ennael: :) 18:39:24 <ennael> and some representatives from communities 18:39:26 <ennael> wobo: ? 18:39:39 <coincoin> me too assaid, and I think rtp can be part of the forum team to help for the roadmap :) 18:39:43 <rda> ennael: have an idea about it 18:40:00 <misc> so, the deadline for the roadmap would be ? 18:40:06 <wobo> ennael: yes 18:40:11 <rda> ideally, this would be made of council people, if they were elected. but we can bootstrap it this way. 18:40:38 <ennael> misc: what about end of next week ? 18:40:39 <rtp> coincoin: stop trolling. please remember that this meeting is logged :) 18:40:45 <coincoin> rtp: :) 18:41:12 <misc> ennael: around 30 october ? 18:41:20 <ennael> yep 18:41:54 <coincoin> for a draft or for the final version? 18:42:07 <ennael> good question :) 18:42:13 <coincoin> :) 18:42:14 <rda> final I'd say. 18:42:14 <ennael> I guess final draft ? :) 18:42:17 <rda> so we keep it short. 18:42:41 <coincoin> so 30 october for a RTM? :) 18:42:48 <misc> #action ennael rda coincoin misc write a roadmap for the next 6 months ( final draft for 30th october ) 18:42:50 <rda> moreover, the roadmap should allow to prioritize items in it, so we know what to focus on absolutely, and what could wait 18:43:02 <ennael> wobo: can you help on this ? 18:43:10 <wobo> in what part? 18:43:40 <misc> #undo 18:43:40 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x827cc6c> 18:43:46 <ennael> working on a roadmap for coming months 18:44:02 <wobo> yes, but in what respect? 18:44:17 <ennael> aspect ? 18:44:23 <wobo> yes :) 18:44:26 <ennael> :) 18:44:37 <ennael> well as user community representative 18:45:02 <ennael> it will deal with iso, repositories, communication, spread mageia in local communities... 18:45:47 <wobo> yes, ok, as for the Germans we are prepared for all this :) 18:45:55 <ennael> ok great 18:46:13 <misc> #action wobo ennael rda coincoin misc write a roadmap for the next 6 months ( final draft for 30th october ) 18:46:53 <misc> ok so anything to add on that part ? 18:47:19 <ennael> nope 18:47:23 <misc> good 18:47:30 <misc> so, next topic 18:47:45 <misc> #topic Review of repository structure / License management 18:47:51 <misc> Anssi: up to you :) 18:48:14 <Anssi> right 18:48:34 <Anssi> there are actually quite a few things to decide 18:48:57 <Anssi> as seen in http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=software_inclusion_policy 18:50:03 <Anssi> should we keep the main/contrib separation, for instance? 18:50:11 <misc> i think the question was a little bit too broad on the ml 18:50:21 <misc> so the discussion was "fragmented" 18:50:31 <Anssi> misc: true, I noticed that too late :) 18:51:13 <misc> so I would start by categorizing the various question ( as some of them are interleaved and depend on each others ) 18:51:31 <rda> a first question could be: if we use 100% free software, do we end up with something easily installable/usable? 18:51:38 <rda> misc: like? 18:52:10 <misc> let me seek 18:52:38 <wobo> misc: this question depends on what kind of distribution Mageia wants to be :) 18:52:43 <Anssi> rda: well, there are two related issues to that... proprietary firmware and proprietary drivers 18:52:53 <misc> for example, the discussion about decss is someone linked to the one of patent 18:53:20 <rtp> rda: you can have trouble with network drivers needing firmware 18:53:31 <rda> misc: yes, so does the list on the wiki page makes valid categories, to manage each separately, in some way? 18:53:37 <rda> (to have a progressive thinking) 18:53:48 <Anssi> yep.. it is difficult to download the firmware afterwards if you do not have network out-of-the-box 18:53:53 <rda> rtp: trouble like, not working without a non-free driver you mean? 18:53:57 <rda> Anssi: sure :) 18:54:13 <Anssi> rda: not working without a firmware (like TG3, which is quite common) 18:54:24 <rda> ok, so that means that, although we could ship a pure free software release, we neeed to release at least one with non-free stuff. 18:54:55 <misc> well, I personnally think that the mdv approach was good ( if we could have cleaned the policy with regard to patent to be at least consistent ) 18:54:58 <tmb> well that's like free/one... 18:55:05 <rda> (I mean, we need to be explicit in choices, from the very bottom, to avoid any useless discussions) 18:55:16 <Anssi> rda: another thing is that the open source radeon drivers require non-free firmware as well 18:55:21 <rtp> misc: the mdv approac was quite "blurry" imho 18:55:22 <misc> rda: you are optimistic about avoiding useless discussion :) 18:55:26 <rda> misc: :) 18:55:29 <Anssi> (at least if acceleration, that is) 18:55:33 <Anssi> s/if/for/ 18:55:40 <rda> misc: about the patent issue, in general, I don't know if we can have a consistent policy. having read the VLC legal FAQ, I wonder... 18:56:30 <rda> we can have a basic rule stating: use Free Software whenever possible. Use non-free when needed, still promote/fund alternative developments. 18:56:31 <rda> for a start. 18:56:34 <president_goom> to have a consistent policy we must decide under which law the project lives 18:56:49 <misc> rda: well, we can also have a policy of case per case basis decided by council after listening to community 18:56:52 <rda> president_goom: first, decide what we want to do, then check the law setup. 18:57:07 <president_goom> i mean, for debian, fedora, RH, OpenSuse it is clear, they are in USA then they follow US laws 18:57:23 <rda> misc: yep, too. but it can be a good stance to have a claimed policy, with an explicit process, and in last resort, council decision. 18:57:30 <ennael> president_goom: proprietary drivers stays proprietary whatever the country 18:57:39 <Anssi> president_goom: yes, but their patent policies differ anyway 18:57:45 <president_goom> that's very noticeable on RH policies when they talk about exportation restriction due to US Laws 18:57:47 <tmb> well, if we split firmware in separate tree, and keep it disabled on a "Free Install", and then people can choose to install the wanted firmware ... 18:57:52 <rda> ok, so that's the point: we must discuss issues separately. do not mix patent issues with non-free ones. 18:57:54 <misc> rda: we can also o the reverse, start with case by case and then, based on decision, flesh out a policy 18:58:04 <president_goom> ennael: i don't talk about proprietary softwares 18:58:17 <rda> misc: yes. but I would be quite extreme, then. but that's me. :-p 18:58:25 <boklm> are you talking about ISO or repository ? 18:58:34 <misc> rda: well, that worked quite well for most legal system, in fact 18:58:37 <rda> boklm: both, we're speaking at the general level. 18:58:38 <president_goom> i talk about free softwares that might break software patents 18:58:52 <misc> anyway, I think we are heading to repeating the same discussion on ml 18:58:57 <rda> yes 18:59:00 <misc> and I still plan to finish under 2h, so 18:59:01 <rda> let's take issues one by one. 18:59:03 <tmb> I'd like the "core" repo to be GPL-only... 18:59:12 <rda> first, discuss the free vs. non-free. 18:59:12 <president_goom> they break patents if patents on software are legal, if not you can't break illegal patent 18:59:21 <Anssi> tmb: or OSI-free only, I guess 18:59:23 <rda> second, discuss patent issues. 18:59:31 <rda> tmb: what would the "core" there? 19:00:25 <rda> ok. I suggest we don't repeat the discussion here. 19:00:44 <rda> and that we lay it down step by step on the wiki, plus adhoc discussions. 19:00:48 <misc> yup 19:00:50 <rda> first, what do we include in the distribution at large. 19:00:53 <president_goom> free vs non-free (proprietary) : if redistribution is allowed, non-free softwares goes to non-free repo 19:00:56 <rda> then, how do we map this on medias. 19:01:30 <misc> we could also decide to keep the same medias than mandriva to start and then change after the first release 19:01:48 <rda> that could have the advantage of not delaying the first ISO, yes. 19:01:49 <tmb> maybe core/firmware/non-free/games 19:02:04 <misc> ( as one goal were everybody agreed so far is to ave a release soon, and I fear this discussion is likely to delay release ) 19:02:05 <rtp> misc: you're talking of non-free/restricted ? 19:02:12 <rda> tmb: games need a full dedicated media? :) 19:02:15 <misc> rtp: i am talking of everything 19:02:19 <ennael> uh ? 19:02:32 <misc> rda: for size reasons, this was discussed 19:02:48 <rda> oh ok 19:02:56 <tmb> rda: yep. we have a lot of gamers, that maybe all dont want to mirror 19:03:10 <misc> ( i am against it for consistency reasons, but I understand the reasoning ) 19:03:26 <rda> hmm maybe stupid idea, but following this, why not split media per type of activity? (for specialized apps) 19:03:29 <Anssi> well, currently on mandriva non-free firmware location is arbitrary (some are in main, some in non-free)... but I guess it could be accepted as a temporary solution.. 19:03:58 <tmb> Anssi: well, we can clean that up. 19:04:01 <misc> rda: then this will become hellish from a rpm deps point of view 19:04:11 <rda> misc: probably, yes 19:04:18 <misc> if we can clean now, we can clean later too /o\ 19:04:24 <rda> :) 19:04:30 <misc> ( procrastination FTW ) 19:04:35 <rtp> :) 19:04:56 <rda> ok, I can help laying down the structure for the work on software inclusion, if someone can help too and others provide input. 19:05:10 <misc> no one found urgent to clean mess on mandriva mirror in the past, and so I think we can still wait a little for this now 19:05:23 <rda> (I'll likely only check that the work document looks consistent and structured) 19:06:18 <tmb> do we need a "unmaintained" tree too ? 19:06:42 * tmb looking on many unmaintained rpms in mdv repo 19:06:50 <misc> well, we could one :) 19:06:57 <rtp> misc: my guess is rather lack of time or lack or will 19:07:19 <rda> shall we go on next topic? 19:07:31 <misc> well, so what do we decide on this ? 19:07:37 <wobo> One remark: As for the ISOs: there's but one type of proprietary software needed on all ISOs: firmware for WiFI - number of WiFi-only machines/networks are increasing. 19:07:46 <misc> ( except the obvious, ie that's a little it messy ) 19:07:46 <rda> I'd say, work on it this week, let's review progress next monday) 19:08:04 <misc> and so who work on this ? 19:08:18 <Anssi> wobo: and firmware for graphics cards? or ethernet cards? :) 19:08:21 <rda> and keep existing layout for the first release most probably (unless we come up with something quick and easy) 19:08:22 <ennael> carefull roadmap doc can take time also 19:08:32 <misc> yup 19:08:51 <misc> well, Anssi, tmb, president_goom , you can work on the document ? 19:08:51 <ennael> I guess we have enough people to share wok 19:08:54 <ennael> work 19:08:58 <ennael> wok is for diner 19:08:58 <rda> ennael: so we review progress in two weeks then? 19:09:00 <coincoin> :) 19:09:20 <wobo> Anssi: firmware for graphics can be taken over the network, network cards - do they need a non-free firmware? 19:09:27 <tmb> ennael: ok for me 19:09:32 <Anssi> wobo: some do 19:09:43 <president_goom> ok for me 19:09:48 <rtp> wobo: yeah, there are ethernet drivers which need firmware 19:09:50 <wobo> Anssi: ok, so all firmware needed for net access 19:10:08 <erwan_taf> wobo: +1 19:10:24 <misc> ok so Anssi tmb president_goom work on the document ? 19:10:24 <tmb> wobo: I think any "One" type iso needs all firmware for net access and graphics... 19:10:25 <Anssi> misc: I think so 19:10:42 <ennael> yep 19:10:48 <rtp> tmb: as long as we're allowed to dribute them imho 19:10:56 <rtp> err distribute 19:11:11 <tmb> rtp: of course, that goes without saying... 19:11:12 <wobo> tmb: I'm talking about ALL isos. 19:11:22 <Anssi> yes, of course, I think everyone agrees that we shouldn't distribute non-distributable firmware 19:11:28 <Anssi> (ubuntu does, though) 19:12:12 <misc> president_goom: ok to work on the document with Anssi and tmb ? 19:12:18 <tmb> wobo: well, IMHO a ISO marked "Free" should be free only... 19:12:18 <president_goom> yes misc 19:12:48 <misc> #action Anssi tmb president_goom work on the various questions for 30th october 19:12:51 <wobo> tmb: yes, but it's not usable with a WiFi only machine 19:13:15 <misc> next topic ? ( association creation ) 19:13:18 <rtp> wobo: you can use usb storage to install the firmware, no ? 19:13:39 <ennael> misc: ok 19:13:49 <misc> #topic association creation review 19:14:03 <misc> coincoin, up to you :) 19:14:06 <coincoin> go go go 19:14:30 <coincoin> so, the file is now in the hand of the administation 19:14:31 * misc also redirect rtp and wobo to discuss of technical detail on -dev :p 19:14:59 <coincoin> I receive a paper yesterday saying that the process is officialy launched 19:15:23 <coincoin> we still need to wait 3 weeks to have the association created 19:15:25 <rda> I received today the paper confirming the Mageia trademark registration in France 19:15:39 <rda> (need to extend it now) 19:15:49 <wobo> rda registered on whose name? 19:15:51 <Fredxx> coincoin: have you read my comments ont the statutes 19:15:53 <coincoin> during this time ennael and I will go the the bank to open (next week as I will be in Marseille) a bank account for Mageia.org 19:16:00 <misc> #info Mageia trademark is official 19:16:05 <rda> wobo: mine for the time being. will be transfered to the association as soon as possible. 19:16:13 <wobo> rda thx 19:16:17 <misc> #info ennael and coincoin will go to the bank 19:16:24 <coincoin> Fredxx: yes but too late as the file was already at the prefecture (we will see for an AGE) 19:16:34 <Fredxx> coincoin: yes, sure 19:16:42 <misc> #info process is launched for association review 19:17:08 <coincoin> I have the number of registration which allow us to open a bank account 19:17:39 <coincoin> but we won't be able to use the money on this bank account before the end of the process of the creation of the association 19:17:59 <wobo> coincoin: what exact kind of association was founded, what legal form of association? 19:18:15 <coincoin> wobo: a non for profit association 19:18:17 <rtp> coincoin: please remember to ask me for the paper before going to the bank :) 19:18:29 <coincoin> wobo: "loi 1901" in french 19:18:34 <misc> wobo: law 1901 19:18:36 <coincoin> rtp: yes sure 19:18:40 <Fredxx> wobo: non profit organisation 19:19:01 <wobo> coincoin: yes, but what is the exact name (to be translated in future) 19:19:10 <ennael> Mageia.org 19:19:28 <wobo> ennael: no, the kind of association? 19:19:31 <coincoin> wobo: ennael was to reactive :p 19:19:32 <ennael> erf 19:20:07 <rda> wobo: "une association à but non lucratif qui relève de la loi du 1er juillet 1901" 19:20:17 <ennael> :) 19:20:21 <rda> that's how we call them in France 19:20:22 <ennael> say it in german :) 19:20:23 <coincoin> "a non-profit association" (loi 1901 in french) 19:20:29 <wobo> to explain: in Germany we have GmbH, Stiftung (Foundation), etc. 19:20:48 <rda> wobo: it's not a foundation (would need a big pack of money to start) 19:21:01 <coincoin> wobo: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-profit_organization 19:21:01 <rda> wobo: I believe GmbH is more like SARL or SA for companies in France 19:21:06 <wobo> rda: yes, I wanted to give examples 19:21:24 <rda> wobo: so "association loi 1901" is a type like this in itself. 19:21:25 <wobo> examples for what I was asking for 19:21:33 <Fredxx> wobo: we have some details to fix after the creation 19:21:54 <wobo> Fredxx: so I heard, yes 19:22:03 <coincoin> wobo: in France we just say "Association" so "Mageia.org Association" 19:22:07 <teuf> associations loi 1901 are more or less described in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1901_French_law_on_associations 19:22:23 <coincoin> teuf: thank you sweety 19:22:34 <wobo> coincoin: teuf: thx, that helps :) 19:22:43 * boklm was going to past the same link :) 19:22:48 <misc> well, so while I do not want to deprive wobo of explanation and so on, is there anything to add on the topic, or we can switch on next one ? 19:22:59 <coincoin> misc: not for me 19:23:17 <misc> ok 19:23:22 <misc> #topic code of conduct 19:23:29 <misc> ennael: up to you 19:23:37 <ennael> erf 19:23:39 <ennael> oups 19:23:40 <ennael> ok 19:24:01 <ennael> so we did not discuss it yet but I guess it would be nice to have one 19:24:10 <ennael> as we did wih cooker-chef group 19:24:35 <ennael> to help managing relations and underline potential pb 19:24:57 <ennael> so I took the one we did for Mandriva 19:25:08 <ennael> and put it on wiki to propose for Mageia 19:25:17 <misc> the mageia wiki ? 19:25:21 <ennael> not yet 19:25:27 <ennael> valstar one 19:25:36 <misc> #action put the code of conduct on the wiki 19:25:40 <ennael> it would be for Mageia all teams 19:25:47 <ennael> it would be for all Mageia teams 19:26:04 <ennael> I guess wobo read it 19:26:19 <wobo> yes, back when I was in MUGs :) 19:26:50 <wobo> ennael: yes, read it today again 19:27:12 <misc> well, we published it afaik http://wiki.mandriva.com/en/Code_of_Conduct 19:27:23 <wobo> yes 19:27:47 <misc> ( and the coc was in turn adapted from gnome or kde one, I do not know ) 19:28:25 <ennael> mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=codeofconduct 19:28:28 <ennael> first paste 19:28:39 <ennael> improving format 19:28:46 <misc> #link http://mageia.org/wiki/doku.php?id=codeofconduct 19:30:15 <misc> ok so the next step is ? 19:31:01 <ennael> proof reading 19:31:16 <ennael> and see if we can make it more generic not only for devs a 19:31:25 <ennael> and make it fit with Mageia organization 19:31:37 <rda> isn't it already quite generic? 19:31:47 <wobo> Can we use it without changing (except for the names)? Will it not remember too many people of Mandriva and the problems with CoC, due to the company? 19:32:03 <ennael> rda: just a question 19:32:26 <misc> wobo: well, afaik, we never enforced the CoC, and it was just a set of guideline , not a hard requirement, unlike ubuntu, we do not ask people to sign it 19:33:32 <wobo> misc: it was published as reaction to the complaining users in the forum, so although not enforced it had a meaning 19:34:06 <misc> wobo: mhh from what I remind of the cooker-chef meeting, it was not the case ( at least, that's not how I perceived it ) 19:34:50 <wobo> yes, it may have been different on the cooker side but it was a big thing on the MUGs and user side 19:35:49 <misc> then maybe a FAQ along the CoC to ease the publication ? 19:36:53 <wobo> It may help to explain that the situation is different, now not being restricted by company orders, etc. 19:37:12 <ennael> a big thing ? 19:37:13 <misc> well, the goal was not really to restrict people with company order 19:37:32 <rda> a faq to say what? 19:38:28 <rda> the CoC is like a netiquette, talking about person-to-person relations, no? 19:38:36 <misc> rda: "someone do not respect the code of conduct, should I contact plf to get him killed" "I feel the FAQ is looking like the one of mdv, is it normal" "we have no conduct issue, so why have a CoC" 19:38:40 <misc> yeah 19:39:09 <ennael> well imho coc is just a set of "normal statements" 19:39:25 <ennael> any registration on Mageia project should come together with accpeting it 19:39:30 <rda> misc: ah, yes. :) 19:39:51 <rda> misc: well, that's a generic FAQ issue, then. we can update the existing faq. 19:39:53 <wobo> yes, but once published we are measured by this set of statements as we are by the "values" 19:40:20 <ennael> so ? 19:40:38 <ennael> we should not publish it if we do not want to follow it :) 19:40:59 <rda> well.. I should re-read it again, but I don't see, not sure, why I wouldn't follow it. 19:41:13 <wobo> same here 19:41:42 <ennael> so it could apply to forums, ML,... 19:41:45 <rda> ennael: I wouldn't make it mandatory to accept it to register, but to invite/welcome people to follow it closely. 19:41:48 <rda> ennael: yes 19:41:54 <misc> yup, like rda 19:42:13 <misc> because people should not feel forced to follow it, but follow it because they think it it is the right thing to do 19:42:14 <ennael> looks weird but ok 19:42:25 <wobo> misc right 19:42:34 <rda> misc: yep 19:42:51 <ennael> it's a very optimistic view of world :) 19:42:57 <ennael> but hey we can :) 19:43:22 <wobo> we ARE optimistic, otherwise none of you would have started all this :) 19:43:28 <coling> hehe 19:43:33 <rda> ennael: that doesn't leave out the possibility to kick (IRC-style) someone because she does not follow the CoC, yes? 19:43:59 <ennael> misc: wan you write on inof that wobo made us optimistic (otherwise we die) 19:44:02 <ennael> :) 19:44:06 <misc> we do not have CoC and that doesn't prevent kicking person :) 19:44:35 <coling> But at least with CoC, kicking has legitimacy rather than just the "will of misc" 19:44:42 <ennael> :) 19:44:42 <coling> (which I wouldn't dare doubt!) 19:45:03 <wobo> misc: having a fixed base for one foot makes kicking much more efficient 19:45:17 <Fredxx> do u mean that CoC could be like the "règlement interieur" of the association ? 19:45:24 <rda> Fredxx: no 19:45:29 <misc> I would fear that people would take the CoC as a excuse to kick others more than anything 19:45:34 <Fredxx> k 19:45:54 <wobo> depends on who are the people with a right to kick 19:45:59 <misc> ie, kicking someone should a last resort measure, so rare than people should not think of it 19:46:08 <wobo> yes 19:46:08 <rda> misc: saying, like "you're not considerate, get out!" "hey, no, _you_ are not respecting me, you get out" ? :) 19:46:19 <misc> rda: yup, this kind of thing 19:46:24 <rda> misc: yes, should be escalated to council I guess 19:46:33 <ennael> misc: this is not very optimistic :) 19:46:34 <misc> and most of the time, kicking is not realy enforcable 19:46:42 * rda slaps ennael 19:46:46 <ennael> :) 19:46:50 <ennael> aie 19:46:55 <ennael> hey this is not in CoC 19:46:58 <wobo> :) 19:47:00 <ennael> please kick rda 19:47:19 <rda> ennael: tsss, you don't recognize a kindly kick from a bad one? 19:47:23 <coincoin> :) 19:47:41 <ennael> ok so to summarize ? 19:47:51 <misc> we need to proofread the CoC 19:48:20 <rda> ok 19:48:30 <misc> #action proofread the CoC 19:49:12 <wobo> maybe after that we should publish it on the website along with the values? Because the CoC also tells about us who want to follow it 19:49:52 <coling> Sounds valid. 19:49:53 <misc> we can also ask to translate it ? 19:50:03 <rda> wobo: yes 19:50:19 <ennael> yep would be nice 19:50:23 <wobo> already done in many languages (at least the Mandriva version) 19:50:25 <rda> I would even say that it would be nice to have some illustration of both. but... ennael will smile at it. 19:50:46 <ennael> please rda draw me a CoC :) 19:50:54 <coincoin> :D 19:51:01 <coincoin> and not a grey one 19:51:12 <wobo> you can use the logo of the company CoC 19:51:25 * rda gently slaps ennael with consideration 19:51:35 <misc> wobo: in fact, asking to translate is a trick to make sure people read it :) 19:51:46 <wobo> misc: :) 19:51:49 <ennael> rda: walt signature :) 19:52:06 <misc> #action translate CoC after being proof read 19:52:12 <misc> and then publish it ? 19:52:17 <ennael> yep 19:52:17 <rda> ennael: :p 19:53:28 <misc> #action publish the coc 19:53:41 <misc> so anything else to add on this ? 19:53:55 <ennael> nope 19:54:00 <misc> great 19:54:02 <coincoin> niet 19:54:19 <wobo> non 19:54:26 <misc> this was the last topic, so thanks for being there 19:54:30 <misc> #endmeeting