19:04:39 <papoteur_> #startmeeting
19:04:39 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Mon Sep 12 19:04:39 2016 UTC.  The chair is papoteur_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:04:39 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:04:55 <papoteur_> #chair lebarhon_ harms_
19:04:55 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: harms_ lebarhon_ papoteur_
19:05:38 <lebarhon_> first topic ?
19:05:40 <papoteur_> I'm a little disconnected, after the week-end. ;)
19:06:03 <lebarhon_> it was a hard  one ?
19:06:22 <papoteur_> For the new publications, I have done nothing since the last week. Thus nothing new.
19:06:45 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: no, but no Internet and so on.
19:06:55 <lebarhon_> nothing new either about the installer help
19:07:18 <lebarhon_> papoteur_: really disconnected
19:07:36 <lebarhon_> no answer from barjac
19:07:39 <papoteur_> What is new is that the term for the release of Mageia 6 seems further
19:08:05 <lebarhon_> unfortunately
19:08:28 <harms_> further postponed or further nearby?
19:08:46 <papoteur_> harms_: postponed.
19:09:02 <papoteur_> it will be a Mageia 5.1 before.
19:09:39 <papoteur_> Thus no new M6 iso to test before.
19:10:25 <papoteur_> I saw some work on artwork integration this week, but I don't know the status.
19:11:22 <papoteur_> We can speak about the technic of images for screenshots?
19:12:36 <papoteur_> Do you agree? Or other topic?
19:12:43 <harms_> That is very early - we should not discuss technique, rather discuss
19:12:55 <harms_> strategy
19:13:28 <lebarhon_> Background or not in SCs
19:13:31 <harms_> Is my impression right that the production of illustrations for manuals
19:13:47 <harms_> is a very time consuming activity?
19:13:48 <papoteur_> #topic strategy about screenshots
19:14:29 <lebarhon_> No, doing SC is quick
19:14:36 <papoteur_> harms_: worst. The goal is never get
19:15:21 <papoteur_> OK, I thought also for MCC.
19:15:48 <papoteur_> For Installer, it's easier.
19:16:55 <harms_> I distinguis between SCs and getting a publishable documents
19:16:56 <harms_> documents -> multilingual documents.
19:17:53 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: thus you think that ahving SC for installer is not a topic?
19:18:01 <papoteur_> s/having
19:18:56 <lebarhon_> For me, doing Installer SCs isn't time consuming
19:19:22 <lebarhon_> an installation last about 20 mn and I have all the SCs
19:19:35 <harms_> Are we talking about a non-problem?
19:20:15 <lebarhon_> The problem is to have the right ISO with the right bacground
19:20:36 <lebarhon_> and the right subtitle that is Mageia 6
19:21:03 <lebarhon_> when it is Mageia 6 RC we can erade RC with Gimp
19:21:10 <lebarhon_> *erase
19:21:46 <lebarhon_> but if it is not the right background, what can we do ?
19:21:59 <harms_> How many other multilingual documents does doc-team have to manage (at mid-term)?
19:22:08 <lebarhon_> May be SC with no background at all
19:22:50 <lebarhon_> Installer, MCC boot.iso and Live
19:23:07 <lebarhon_> so 4 manuals
19:23:14 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: it's an option. However, we lost the indication of the step in the process. Perhaps is it not a problem.
19:24:45 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: Advantageously, the SC is still the same across releases
19:25:06 <harms_> For 4 documents the present method should be good enough.
19:25:33 <lebarhon_> papoteur_: you are right, we are losing something
19:26:06 <harms_> Maybe the real issue is not producing SCs and translating captions, but the integration
19:26:18 <harms_> into Mageia production cycle
19:26:43 <lebarhon_> That is mostly i18n work
19:27:01 <lebarhon_> filip and yuri
19:27:15 <papoteur_> and Latte
19:28:26 <papoteur_> for MCC, it's too much work, I'm not sure a language has completely translated SC
19:29:25 <lebarhon_> With the new icons, MCC is entirely to be redone
19:30:17 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: not entirely, but the different screens for the choise of application.
19:30:33 <lebarhon_> But we can work on MCC manual all year long, with no regards with releases
19:30:41 <papoteur_> in application themselve, I'm not sure all is changed.
19:31:04 <papoteur_> yes
19:31:35 <lebarhon_> papoteur_: indeed, only the main screens have the new icons
19:32:04 <harms_> Are we talking about documenting a moving target?
19:32:48 <lebarhon_> what is a moving target ? :-(
19:33:20 <papoteur_> harms_: no, MCC is very stable (too perhaps).
19:34:04 <papoteur_> Some icons change in applications: http://docteam.mageia.nl/en/MCC/content/drakwizard_dhcp.html
19:34:05 <[mbot> [ Configure DHCP ]
19:35:39 <lebarhon_> MCC will be replaced by manatools
19:35:44 <papoteur_> Finally, lebarhon_ you're nearer of the truth when you said all SC are to renew
19:36:13 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: it progresses very slowly.
19:37:00 <lebarhon_> as already said, doing SCs is pretty fast
19:38:08 <papoteur_> A part of the work is too give the good name.
19:38:54 <lebarhon_> th good name to the SC ?
19:38:55 <harms_> Let me put this differently: for the installer there is a (conceptually) clear deadline:
19:38:55 <papoteur_> the numbering is not always continuous.
19:39:19 <harms_> when contents are frozen before the release.
19:39:41 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: yes
19:40:17 <harms_> For the other 3 documents - should docteam decide on precise times for a "snapshot" of the
19:40:53 <harms_> state of the software?
19:41:24 <harms_> I am a little bit preoccupied by having an icon change here and an icon change there,
19:41:45 <papoteur_> harms_: after the release, there is no functional improvment of our software.
19:42:05 <harms_> and each time having a lot of good will to keep track of the changed icons
19:43:20 <papoteur_> harms_: icons are stabilized. And if one or two change, this is not a matter of redoing something.
19:45:04 <harms_> That is what I think
19:45:20 <papoteur_> OK
19:45:39 <harms_> Is this clearly understood doc-team policy?
19:46:14 <papoteur_> harms_: I don't understand well your question.
19:47:18 <harms_> new wording: do we all agree on this?
19:47:26 <lebarhon_> May we should write a wiki page about docteam policy
19:47:55 <lebarhon_> or add it on an existing page
19:48:24 <papoteur_> perhaps.
19:48:44 <harms_> There remains the issue of the installer documentation. I think the docteam
19:50:11 <harms_> chair should be informed of the moment "Mageia" expects ready installer documentation,
19:50:26 <papoteur_> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/How_to_write_and_translate_Mageia_doc
19:51:12 <harms_> and when the needed a (maybe informal) snapshot of the installer
19:51:40 <harms_> is available - knowing that these dates will change
19:52:27 <papoteur_> harms_: I'm not really aware of terms. It's after RC I think.
19:53:00 <lebarhon_> In the previous versions, there was a planning with the doc freeze
19:53:09 <papoteur_> we have to ask marja, she knows that better as me.
19:53:27 <lebarhon_> but we have no more planning at all, not even a release date
19:54:15 <harms_> I would interpret this as a clear indication that as long as such a date
19:54:48 <harms_> is not known, time spent in producing the doc could be lost time
19:55:35 <papoteur_> Our documentation can be integrate at very last moment. The problem is to have translation updated.
19:57:08 <papoteur_> The next ISO will be a sta2, then come the RC.
19:57:17 <lebarhon_> the flow is: complete dev > doc writing> translation > packging software + doc
19:59:14 <papoteur_> I will ask for more precise schedule to marja or council if needed.
19:59:25 <lebarhon_> I think I will find somewhere a place to write docteam policy and you will be able to modify it
20:00:00 <papoteur_> anything else on this topic?
20:00:21 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: OK.
20:00:32 <harms_> ok
20:00:58 <papoteur_> Another topic?
20:01:16 <lebarhon_> what about the troubleshooting section ?
20:01:36 <papoteur_> #topic Troubleshooting section
20:01:46 <lebarhon_> do we add it to the installer hel or not ?
20:01:57 <lebarhon_> *help
20:02:52 <harms_> Given the particular situation (inclusion into the isos) I would plead
20:03:36 <harms_> for keeping the installer and the troubleshooting independent.
20:04:11 <papoteur_> harms_: installer help?
20:04:49 <harms_> sorry, yes installer help
20:04:55 <papoteur_> Perhaps could be it included on Live ISO
20:05:44 <papoteur_> With classical, it would be difficult to access to this section, I think.
20:06:31 <lebarhon_> It is a general help, for Live and Classical
20:06:36 <harms_> New versions of the troubleshooting document should be possible to be
20:06:56 <lebarhon_> yes, the document isnot mature
20:07:20 <harms_> created more frequently than Live or Classical isos.
20:07:54 <harms_> At least initially.
20:07:59 <papoteur_> harms_: not if included on ISO images.
20:08:04 <lebarhon_> you mean a Troobleshouting manual
20:08:27 <harms_> papoteur: that is my point
20:08:32 <lebarhon_> independant of the releases
20:10:04 <papoteur_> For what I understood, lebarhon_ wrote it for being embedded to support when net is not accessible.
20:10:32 <harms_> That is also a good point
20:11:39 <papoteur_> We can perhaps divide it in 2 sections, one to embedded part, another for inline access.
20:12:43 <harms_> How about including a "pre-release" of the troubleshooting doc into the ISO, but having for
20:13:06 <harms_> the initial period a wiki-page in parallel?
20:13:29 <harms_> Could be dropped at the time of the next release.
20:13:37 <lebarhon_> yes it was the idea
20:14:11 <lebarhon_> a wiki page often updated and a snapshot with the releases
20:14:42 <lebarhon_> * snapshot shipped with the releases
20:15:36 <papoteur_> We have to think about how to access such a manual within classical installer.
20:16:15 <papoteur_> or abandon this idea for this image.
20:16:40 <harms_> The present troubleshooting is OK as it is. lebarhon, can you fix a deadline for re-reading it
20:17:19 <harms_> and making possible suggestions for (limited) improvements?
20:17:51 <lebarhon_> I am not happy with it now, we talked about create a main part and an annexe, it is still to be done
20:18:30 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: is the idea to write it in docbook format?
20:18:51 <lebarhon_> yes, if we want it in the help
20:18:59 <papoteur_> OK.
20:19:28 <lebarhon_> but don't know how to make it accessible when needed for the user
20:19:51 <harms_> In my mind that was already done. OK: so there will be an update with these changes, and then a
20:19:59 <harms_> last proofread.
20:21:02 <lebarhon_> and then an xml version
20:22:01 <harms_> re: don't know how to make it accessible
20:22:07 <papoteur_> We can have a PDF or HTML version in Live images. For classical, I don't find a good solution.
20:22:31 <harms_> Do you mean how it is accessed during install?
20:23:06 <papoteur_> harms_: not necessarly during the install, but within the ISO.
20:23:09 <lebarhon_> Yes, it is a help for people installing Mageia
20:23:41 <lebarhon_> during the install or just after
20:23:54 <papoteur_> thus, it could be a link inside each help page.
20:24:47 <lebarhon_> I don't know, may be, or only at the end, if the installation failed
20:25:25 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: but if the installation fails before...
20:26:10 <lebarhon_> :( There is already a button for the help, the troubleshooting could be at the end of the help
20:26:47 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: this is an valid option.
20:26:51 <harms_> Re-calling what I remember from reading the TS document, it is a quite
20:27:34 <harms_> large document, also including issues that are not relevant to installing
20:28:07 <papoteur_> harms_: this is why I proposed to dvide it.
20:29:11 <harms_> OK, when making the division, also take the issue of installer-relevance
20:29:25 <harms_> a criterium for how to divide
20:29:49 <papoteur_> yes
20:31:15 <harms_> I suggest to let lebarhon try how the dividing goes, and see how this
20:31:18 <harms_> is possible.
20:31:46 <papoteur_> I will ask to dev how to integrate this section in classical installer.
20:31:48 <lebarhon_> not easy, many parts are common
20:33:07 <harms_> Yes, I am aware - best thing is to just try and see
20:33:41 <lebarhon_> I suggest to go on this discussion on the ML
20:33:53 <papoteur_> OK.
20:33:56 <harms_> A totally different approach would be to make a clearer distinction
20:34:31 <harms_> between the wiki document(s) and what goes onto the Iso
20:34:44 <harms_> But that is work, and probably messy
20:35:51 <lebarhon_> don't forget, that is for people who don't have internet or a poor one
20:36:00 <papoteur_> It's difficult to imagine just now if it will be good or not.
20:36:53 <harms_> 1st step: lebarhon drafts what he considers best, 2nd step ML discussion?
20:37:15 <lebarhon_> OK
20:38:11 <papoteur_> OK
20:38:20 <lebarhon_> next topic
20:38:26 <harms_> 22h38
20:38:37 <harms_> (-
20:38:39 <lebarhon_> next meeting
20:38:50 <papoteur_> No other topic for me.
20:38:50 <lebarhon_> I am tired too
20:39:25 <papoteur_> in two weeks?
20:39:43 <lebarhon_> Ok september 26
20:40:20 <papoteur_> #info next meeting on 26th September
20:40:26 <harms_> I will only arrive back 27.9 evening - without me, or Thursday instead of Monday?
20:40:39 <papoteur_> #undo
20:40:39 <Inigo_Montoya`> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0xb6a1050c>
20:40:50 <lebarhon_> it is Ok for me for thursday
20:41:12 <papoteur_> lebarhon_: me too.
20:41:20 <papoteur_> #info next meeting on 29th September
20:41:22 <harms_> thank you
20:41:34 <papoteur_> OK
20:41:40 <papoteur_> 5
20:41:46 <papoteur_> 4
20:41:51 <papoteur_> 3
20:41:55 <papoteur_> 2
20:41:57 <lebarhon_> thanx everyone
20:41:59 <papoteur_> 1
20:42:07 <papoteur_> #endmeeting