18:44:11 <papoteur> #startmeeting
18:44:11 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Thu Oct  8 18:44:11 2015 UTC.  The chair is papoteur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:44:11 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
18:44:15 <marja> hi all
18:44:23 <lebarhon> hi marja
18:44:25 <papoteur> hi marja
18:44:34 <papoteur> \o/
18:44:52 <papoteur> #chair lebarhon marja
18:44:52 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: lebarhon marja papoteur
18:45:16 <papoteur> #topic There is some updates waiting for validation in Calenco (about UEFI mostly)
18:45:21 <marja> sorry, I thought the meeting would start at 21h CEST/19hUTC
18:45:49 <papoteur> marja: sorry I changed habits ;)
18:45:54 <marja> np
18:46:06 <lebarhon> it's now papoteur time
18:46:19 <papoteur> ;)
18:46:43 <papoteur> marja: have you some topics
18:46:45 <papoteur> ?
18:46:59 <marja> I should have better read your mail, I missed the new time
18:47:19 <lebarhon> between summer and winter time
18:47:26 <papoteur> ;)
18:47:32 <marja> yes, lebarhon wrote a proposal in the wiki for a very easy installer
18:47:49 <marja> that made me rethink about our keyboard choice screen
18:47:57 <marja> and the help text for it
18:48:09 <marja> I think the help text is too alarming
18:48:36 <papoteur> marja: OK for that topic. For now lebarhon's one
18:48:39 <marja> I intend to write a different text
18:49:05 <marja> ok
18:49:09 <papoteur> ;)
18:50:17 <papoteur> lebarhon: can you refresh us for updates waiting for validation?
18:51:10 <lebarhon> They are in Draktools/MCC-DocteamProjects and
18:51:44 <lebarhon> NexInstallerText/Install-DocteamProjects
18:52:02 <lebarhon> in Calenco en
18:52:54 <lebarhon> We could add a project for the keyboard
18:53:55 <papoteur> lebarhon: OK, I will review them, I hope this week
18:54:36 <lebarhon> fine
18:55:00 <marja> lebarhon: papoteur: thx
18:55:45 <papoteur> I don't see "preview". Is it gone?
18:56:09 <lebarhon> at the far left
18:56:10 <papoteur> forgot
18:56:14 <papoteur> Yes
18:56:47 <papoteur> OK for this topic.
18:57:16 <papoteur> #topic keyboard choice
18:58:06 <lebarhon> marja: what do you think is alarming ?
18:58:36 <papoteur> marja: where do you mean put a new text?
18:59:00 <marja> lebarhon: we stress too much that the user needs to make sure he selects the correct keyboard
18:59:29 <lebarhon> there is a bug that prevent to see the selected keyboard
18:59:40 <lebarhon> *prevents
18:59:52 <lebarhon> is that bug for eternity
19:00:19 <marja> lebarhon: yes, but we mention that in the help text, that is OK
19:00:45 <lebarhon> do you really thinh averyone read the help ? :)
19:00:58 <papoteur> ;)
19:01:06 <papoteur> Yes, of course !
19:01:27 <lebarhon> at least two of us !
19:01:31 <marja> lebarhon: the bug report exists
19:01:41 <lebarhon> OK
19:01:54 <marja> and we write documentation because we expect users to read it
19:01:57 <marja> ;=)
19:03:34 <marja> anyway, I don't think selecting the wrong keyboard is a terrible problem it can be dealt with after install and reboot, all the user has to do afterwards, is make sure he types his password in a text file or so, to see what it really is
19:03:39 <lebarhon> yes but people read the doc when they need it to do somethink, not to find out if something isn't correct
19:04:51 <lebarhon> what do you suggest ?
19:05:07 <papoteur> place of bug is in errata, if needed.
19:05:48 <papoteur> If we hope that the bug will be solved, it's not the place in our documentation.
19:05:49 <marja> lebarhon: well, maybe the text in the keyboard choice screen should be something like "The selected keyboard is the one that is used, if you need to choose another one, then press the Help button first and read the help text"
19:06:46 <papoteur> marja:"and read the help text" ?
19:06:52 <marja> but, indeed, if the bug gets solved that's not needed
19:07:17 <marja> papoteur: that was assuming the bug wouldn't get fixed
19:08:14 <papoteur> I assume that the bug is very old, perhaps Mandriva's time.
19:08:33 <marja> Otoh, I think "Please choose your keyboard layout" makes users feel they should *do* something
19:09:47 <marja> "For your chosen language, the selected keyboard is the default" would be better
19:09:56 <lebarhon> "More" isn't clear either, it should be "More keyboard layout"
19:10:21 <papoteur> marja: on the screenshot, there is four choices, but yes, for some countries, there is only one.
19:11:33 <marja> papoteur: atm, for languages where there is only one, I think that screen is always skipped at the beginning of install, but only shown in the summary step (where you have to look for it)
19:11:45 <papoteur> or "Please check your keyboard layout"
19:11:56 <marja> papoteur: that is even the case for Ukrainian, which has 3 possible layouts
19:12:43 <marja> yeah, "Check" is better than "Choose"
19:12:50 <papoteur> Hum
19:13:31 <papoteur> For French, there is always a choice. But I didn't try another language :/
19:13:45 <lebarhon> The list are the keyboards that match the selected langage, correct ?
19:14:10 <papoteur> lebarhon: I think so
19:14:11 <marja> lebarhon: reading your proposal, I assumed you had read and heard many complaints of users who got confused by the installer screens where things can be chosen
19:14:17 <marja> lebarhon: yes, or languages
19:14:34 <marja> lebarhon: if you select all languages, all keyboards are there
19:15:05 <lebarhon> Mageia installer is very very more complicated that the Windows one, mostly the partitioning
19:15:08 <marja> that is, all keyboards drakx-kbd-mouse-x11 knows about
19:15:49 <marja> lebarhon: won't windows just claim all space?
19:16:09 <lebarhon> yes, by default, why not Mageia ?
19:16:44 <lebarhon> who knows somebody able to install Mageia and not Windows ?
19:16:46 <marja> lebarhon: because we assume new users want to install it next to Windows, instead of overwriting windows
19:17:02 <papoteur> lebarhon: me !
19:17:20 <lebarhon> Mageia could shrink Windows partition alone without questions
19:17:40 <lebarhon> No questions, no problems
19:17:44 <papoteur> lebarhon: yes
19:17:44 <marja> lebarhon: are we sure it always goes well?
19:18:28 <papoteur> Yes. no sure to be the best, but well.
19:18:48 <marja> I think we should first do many tests, choosing language and then following everything installer defaults to, except maybe time zone for some countries
19:18:51 <lebarhon> Yes if there is no reboot after partitioning
19:19:40 <papoteur> :/
19:19:52 <lebarhon> It is easy to change the keyboard in the MCC, the problem are the passwords
19:20:46 <lebarhon> Many devices have default password, why not Mageia ?
19:20:48 <papoteur> thus I suggest to suppress the warning
19:21:26 <marja> lebarhon: yes, so we should add that, if it isn't in MCC-help already: if you selected the wrong keyboard, make sure you type your passwords so you can see them and will know what they are after your keyboard is changed
19:21:26 <lebarhon> papoteur: you must say the selected keyboard isn't the displayed one
19:22:21 <papoteur> thus no changes?
19:22:42 <marja> no changes for what?
19:23:13 <papoteur> marja: for the "selectKeyboard" page
19:24:01 <marja> papoteur: I'll come up with a proposal, the current text is too scary
19:24:48 <papoteur> marja: OK
19:24:49 <marja> "Make sure" is overkill
19:26:24 <papoteur> Next topic ?
19:26:29 <lebarhon> marja: if you enter a pasword, then chhange your keyboard layout, the pwd isn't modified
19:27:06 <papoteur> ;)
19:27:32 <marja> lebarhon: yes, that is why we must document that when a keyboard layout is changed to correct a wrong keyboard selection, that first the passwords must be typed, seen and noted
19:27:34 <papoteur> But when the layout is restored, it's no more valid
19:29:22 <lebarhon> papoteur: I don't follow you :(
19:29:24 <marja> but when it is seen and taken note of, the user will know what it was
19:30:38 <marja> lebarhon: he means that if you have a azerty keyboard, but chose a qwerty layout in installer, that the password "zaza" will really be "wqwq"
19:30:53 <papoteur> lebarhon: If a wrong layout is selected at installation, the password will be registred with said layout. And when entered with the wrong layout, it will pass.
19:31:37 <marja> lebarhon: and that after changing the keyboard, you have to type "wqwq" instead of "zaza" to get it
19:31:47 <papoteur> But by restoring the correct layout, it will not pass
19:32:32 <marja> so: first type your passwords in a text file, *before* changing the layout
19:32:37 <lebarhon> ok there is a problem when the "so known" layout isn't the real one
19:33:39 <marja> but it isn't a huge problem, if checked what the password really types before changing the layout
19:34:15 <papoteur> marja: do you mean explain that in the new proposition?
19:34:25 <marja> papoteur: yes
19:34:31 <papoteur> OK
19:34:59 <lebarhon> marja: you are used to typing your pwd from the letters position :)
19:35:02 <marja> and users who are not sure about their layout, should maybe choose a number as password
19:36:02 <marja> until they're sure
19:36:14 <papoteur> I propose to go to the next topic, then.
19:36:19 <marja> ok
19:36:22 <lebarhon> yes
19:36:48 <papoteur> #topic Extend our documentation
19:37:29 <papoteur> I think that our documentation (Calenco) doesn't cover all our tools.
19:37:51 <papoteur> For example, the Live installation.
19:37:58 <marja> it doesn't have a page about isodumper
19:38:04 <marja> ah, true
19:38:34 <marja> Live is only in the wiki
19:38:35 <papoteur> ah, I didn't think to isodumper ;)
19:39:34 <papoteur> Should we cover also this part. The advantage will be to ahve more translations, I think
19:40:12 <marja> it would be good to have, but I'm most probably not available to help :-(
19:41:09 <papoteur> I ask first if it's a good idea.
19:41:15 <marja> sorry, I've been having health issues which interfere with contributing to Mageia (and with other things)
19:41:41 <marja> yes, it's a good idea
19:41:58 <papoteur> lebarhon: WDYT?
19:42:27 <lebarhon> My neurone is on vacation,
19:42:45 <lebarhon> I think it is not hard work
19:42:50 <papoteur> We have already matter for that.
19:43:04 <marja> yes, there's nice material in the wiki
19:43:24 <lebarhon> what must we say ?
19:43:50 <lebarhon> I never use Live ISOs
19:44:12 <marja> read they wiki instructions, and when they're still good: copy them to Calenco
19:44:27 <marja> I'm not sure UEFI got added
19:45:11 <papoteur> The partitionning step is the same as in the classical install
19:45:17 <marja> kernewes (isolde/ carolyn) wrote a nice page
19:45:49 <lebarhon> In Live mode is UEFI/MSDOS automatically detected ?
19:45:56 <papoteur> We have think wherre to put it also.
19:46:20 <papoteur> lebarhon: yes. I do it last week.
19:46:55 <papoteur> grub2-efi is installed at the last step
19:47:02 <marja> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Installation_of_Mageia_from_a_Live_CD
19:47:25 <marja> that page dates from before UEFI
19:47:56 <papoteur> marja: Yes
19:48:52 <marja> lebarhon: I think the only iso without UEFI detection, is the dual iso
19:49:02 <lebarhon> Mageia 2 and still a draft !
19:49:08 <marja> lebarhon: and the 32bit LiveCDs
19:49:09 <papoteur> I will first propose a structure for his part, and then we can continue to discuss
19:49:20 <marja> papoteur: thx
19:50:16 <lebarhon> +1
19:50:30 <papoteur> #info Papoteur proposes a struture for documentation on Live installation
19:50:59 <papoteur> other topic ?
19:51:08 <papoteur> Not for me.
19:51:14 <marja> nor for me
19:51:43 <marja> topic "good night and sleep well" ;-)
19:52:04 <lebarhon> not really a topic but wdyt about to have isodumper in the right click menu ?
19:52:05 <papoteur> marja: no you forgot "Next meeting"
19:52:21 <marja> papoteur: in two weeks, as said on the calendar?
19:52:36 <marja> only 30 minutes earler than the calendar says
19:52:57 <papoteur> marja: Ok for me
19:52:59 <marja> lebarhon: which right click menu?
19:53:10 <marja> lebarhon: for each DE?
19:53:28 <papoteur> in dolphin?
19:53:50 <lebarhon> when you right click on a USB key, like a "format" command
19:54:10 <lebarhon> in each files browsers
19:54:38 <marja> ah... I don't know how that's handled, probably differently for each file browser
19:54:51 <lebarhon> in the old ages, you had "format" in the contextual menu
19:54:59 <papoteur> lebarhon: I will ask to specialist, but yes, it is a good idea
19:55:06 <marja> lebarhon: would be nice, indeed
19:55:21 <marja> as would having it added to MCC be
19:55:32 <lebarhon> USB sticks are the new floppy
19:56:00 <marja> papoteur: there was a bug report with a patch to add isodumper to MCC?
19:56:08 <lebarhon> maybe a Mageia 6 feature
19:56:32 <papoteur> marja: not a bug report, but a message with a patch.
19:56:45 <marja> papoteur: a mailing list message?
19:56:49 <papoteur> yes
19:57:12 <papoteur> I can grab it
19:57:20 <marja> papoteur: I'm not sure I still have that mail... do you mind adding it to a bug report
19:57:39 <papoteur> marja: yes.
19:58:00 <marja> papoteur: maybe david_david has time to test it (or I can, when my health's back)
19:58:35 <marja> papoteur: now is the time to push it to cauldron... it'll be harder once iso testing has begun
19:58:55 <papoteur> marja: yes, I will copy to you to
19:59:06 <marja> papoteur: thx a lot!
19:59:33 <papoteur> I work also on a yui version.
19:59:45 <marja> when it's fine in cauldron, it can be backported to Mga5 :-)
19:59:53 <marja> papoteur: I know ;-)
20:00:32 <papoteur> OK, thus, it's the end?
20:00:39 <papoteur> 5
20:00:43 <papoteur> 4
20:00:48 <papoteur> 3
20:00:50 <marja> lebarhon: are you ok with meeting same time in two weeks?
20:00:59 <lebarhon> OK
20:01:07 <papoteur> 2
20:01:13 <papoteur> 1
20:01:14 <lebarhon> thanks papoteur and Marja
20:01:21 <papoteur> #endmeeting