18:44:11 <papoteur> #startmeeting 18:44:11 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Thu Oct 8 18:44:11 2015 UTC. The chair is papoteur. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 18:44:11 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 18:44:15 <marja> hi all 18:44:23 <lebarhon> hi marja 18:44:25 <papoteur> hi marja 18:44:34 <papoteur> \o/ 18:44:52 <papoteur> #chair lebarhon marja 18:44:52 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: lebarhon marja papoteur 18:45:16 <papoteur> #topic There is some updates waiting for validation in Calenco (about UEFI mostly) 18:45:21 <marja> sorry, I thought the meeting would start at 21h CEST/19hUTC 18:45:49 <papoteur> marja: sorry I changed habits ;) 18:45:54 <marja> np 18:46:06 <lebarhon> it's now papoteur time 18:46:19 <papoteur> ;) 18:46:43 <papoteur> marja: have you some topics 18:46:45 <papoteur> ? 18:46:59 <marja> I should have better read your mail, I missed the new time 18:47:19 <lebarhon> between summer and winter time 18:47:26 <papoteur> ;) 18:47:32 <marja> yes, lebarhon wrote a proposal in the wiki for a very easy installer 18:47:49 <marja> that made me rethink about our keyboard choice screen 18:47:57 <marja> and the help text for it 18:48:09 <marja> I think the help text is too alarming 18:48:36 <papoteur> marja: OK for that topic. For now lebarhon's one 18:48:39 <marja> I intend to write a different text 18:49:05 <marja> ok 18:49:09 <papoteur> ;) 18:50:17 <papoteur> lebarhon: can you refresh us for updates waiting for validation? 18:51:10 <lebarhon> They are in Draktools/MCC-DocteamProjects and 18:51:44 <lebarhon> NexInstallerText/Install-DocteamProjects 18:52:02 <lebarhon> in Calenco en 18:52:54 <lebarhon> We could add a project for the keyboard 18:53:55 <papoteur> lebarhon: OK, I will review them, I hope this week 18:54:36 <lebarhon> fine 18:55:00 <marja> lebarhon: papoteur: thx 18:55:45 <papoteur> I don't see "preview". Is it gone? 18:56:09 <lebarhon> at the far left 18:56:10 <papoteur> forgot 18:56:14 <papoteur> Yes 18:56:47 <papoteur> OK for this topic. 18:57:16 <papoteur> #topic keyboard choice 18:58:06 <lebarhon> marja: what do you think is alarming ? 18:58:36 <papoteur> marja: where do you mean put a new text? 18:59:00 <marja> lebarhon: we stress too much that the user needs to make sure he selects the correct keyboard 18:59:29 <lebarhon> there is a bug that prevent to see the selected keyboard 18:59:40 <lebarhon> *prevents 18:59:52 <lebarhon> is that bug for eternity 19:00:19 <marja> lebarhon: yes, but we mention that in the help text, that is OK 19:00:45 <lebarhon> do you really thinh averyone read the help ? :) 19:00:58 <papoteur> ;) 19:01:06 <papoteur> Yes, of course ! 19:01:27 <lebarhon> at least two of us ! 19:01:31 <marja> lebarhon: the bug report exists 19:01:41 <lebarhon> OK 19:01:54 <marja> and we write documentation because we expect users to read it 19:01:57 <marja> ;=) 19:03:34 <marja> anyway, I don't think selecting the wrong keyboard is a terrible problem it can be dealt with after install and reboot, all the user has to do afterwards, is make sure he types his password in a text file or so, to see what it really is 19:03:39 <lebarhon> yes but people read the doc when they need it to do somethink, not to find out if something isn't correct 19:04:51 <lebarhon> what do you suggest ? 19:05:07 <papoteur> place of bug is in errata, if needed. 19:05:48 <papoteur> If we hope that the bug will be solved, it's not the place in our documentation. 19:05:49 <marja> lebarhon: well, maybe the text in the keyboard choice screen should be something like "The selected keyboard is the one that is used, if you need to choose another one, then press the Help button first and read the help text" 19:06:46 <papoteur> marja:"and read the help text" ? 19:06:52 <marja> but, indeed, if the bug gets solved that's not needed 19:07:17 <marja> papoteur: that was assuming the bug wouldn't get fixed 19:08:14 <papoteur> I assume that the bug is very old, perhaps Mandriva's time. 19:08:33 <marja> Otoh, I think "Please choose your keyboard layout" makes users feel they should *do* something 19:09:47 <marja> "For your chosen language, the selected keyboard is the default" would be better 19:09:56 <lebarhon> "More" isn't clear either, it should be "More keyboard layout" 19:10:21 <papoteur> marja: on the screenshot, there is four choices, but yes, for some countries, there is only one. 19:11:33 <marja> papoteur: atm, for languages where there is only one, I think that screen is always skipped at the beginning of install, but only shown in the summary step (where you have to look for it) 19:11:45 <papoteur> or "Please check your keyboard layout" 19:11:56 <marja> papoteur: that is even the case for Ukrainian, which has 3 possible layouts 19:12:43 <marja> yeah, "Check" is better than "Choose" 19:12:50 <papoteur> Hum 19:13:31 <papoteur> For French, there is always a choice. But I didn't try another language :/ 19:13:45 <lebarhon> The list are the keyboards that match the selected langage, correct ? 19:14:10 <papoteur> lebarhon: I think so 19:14:11 <marja> lebarhon: reading your proposal, I assumed you had read and heard many complaints of users who got confused by the installer screens where things can be chosen 19:14:17 <marja> lebarhon: yes, or languages 19:14:34 <marja> lebarhon: if you select all languages, all keyboards are there 19:15:05 <lebarhon> Mageia installer is very very more complicated that the Windows one, mostly the partitioning 19:15:08 <marja> that is, all keyboards drakx-kbd-mouse-x11 knows about 19:15:49 <marja> lebarhon: won't windows just claim all space? 19:16:09 <lebarhon> yes, by default, why not Mageia ? 19:16:44 <lebarhon> who knows somebody able to install Mageia and not Windows ? 19:16:46 <marja> lebarhon: because we assume new users want to install it next to Windows, instead of overwriting windows 19:17:02 <papoteur> lebarhon: me ! 19:17:20 <lebarhon> Mageia could shrink Windows partition alone without questions 19:17:40 <lebarhon> No questions, no problems 19:17:44 <papoteur> lebarhon: yes 19:17:44 <marja> lebarhon: are we sure it always goes well? 19:18:28 <papoteur> Yes. no sure to be the best, but well. 19:18:48 <marja> I think we should first do many tests, choosing language and then following everything installer defaults to, except maybe time zone for some countries 19:18:51 <lebarhon> Yes if there is no reboot after partitioning 19:19:40 <papoteur> :/ 19:19:52 <lebarhon> It is easy to change the keyboard in the MCC, the problem are the passwords 19:20:46 <lebarhon> Many devices have default password, why not Mageia ? 19:20:48 <papoteur> thus I suggest to suppress the warning 19:21:26 <marja> lebarhon: yes, so we should add that, if it isn't in MCC-help already: if you selected the wrong keyboard, make sure you type your passwords so you can see them and will know what they are after your keyboard is changed 19:21:26 <lebarhon> papoteur: you must say the selected keyboard isn't the displayed one 19:22:21 <papoteur> thus no changes? 19:22:42 <marja> no changes for what? 19:23:13 <papoteur> marja: for the "selectKeyboard" page 19:24:01 <marja> papoteur: I'll come up with a proposal, the current text is too scary 19:24:48 <papoteur> marja: OK 19:24:49 <marja> "Make sure" is overkill 19:26:24 <papoteur> Next topic ? 19:26:29 <lebarhon> marja: if you enter a pasword, then chhange your keyboard layout, the pwd isn't modified 19:27:06 <papoteur> ;) 19:27:32 <marja> lebarhon: yes, that is why we must document that when a keyboard layout is changed to correct a wrong keyboard selection, that first the passwords must be typed, seen and noted 19:27:34 <papoteur> But when the layout is restored, it's no more valid 19:29:22 <lebarhon> papoteur: I don't follow you :( 19:29:24 <marja> but when it is seen and taken note of, the user will know what it was 19:30:38 <marja> lebarhon: he means that if you have a azerty keyboard, but chose a qwerty layout in installer, that the password "zaza" will really be "wqwq" 19:30:53 <papoteur> lebarhon: If a wrong layout is selected at installation, the password will be registred with said layout. And when entered with the wrong layout, it will pass. 19:31:37 <marja> lebarhon: and that after changing the keyboard, you have to type "wqwq" instead of "zaza" to get it 19:31:47 <papoteur> But by restoring the correct layout, it will not pass 19:32:32 <marja> so: first type your passwords in a text file, *before* changing the layout 19:32:37 <lebarhon> ok there is a problem when the "so known" layout isn't the real one 19:33:39 <marja> but it isn't a huge problem, if checked what the password really types before changing the layout 19:34:15 <papoteur> marja: do you mean explain that in the new proposition? 19:34:25 <marja> papoteur: yes 19:34:31 <papoteur> OK 19:34:59 <lebarhon> marja: you are used to typing your pwd from the letters position :) 19:35:02 <marja> and users who are not sure about their layout, should maybe choose a number as password 19:36:02 <marja> until they're sure 19:36:14 <papoteur> I propose to go to the next topic, then. 19:36:19 <marja> ok 19:36:22 <lebarhon> yes 19:36:48 <papoteur> #topic Extend our documentation 19:37:29 <papoteur> I think that our documentation (Calenco) doesn't cover all our tools. 19:37:51 <papoteur> For example, the Live installation. 19:37:58 <marja> it doesn't have a page about isodumper 19:38:04 <marja> ah, true 19:38:34 <marja> Live is only in the wiki 19:38:35 <papoteur> ah, I didn't think to isodumper ;) 19:39:34 <papoteur> Should we cover also this part. The advantage will be to ahve more translations, I think 19:40:12 <marja> it would be good to have, but I'm most probably not available to help :-( 19:41:09 <papoteur> I ask first if it's a good idea. 19:41:15 <marja> sorry, I've been having health issues which interfere with contributing to Mageia (and with other things) 19:41:41 <marja> yes, it's a good idea 19:41:58 <papoteur> lebarhon: WDYT? 19:42:27 <lebarhon> My neurone is on vacation, 19:42:45 <lebarhon> I think it is not hard work 19:42:50 <papoteur> We have already matter for that. 19:43:04 <marja> yes, there's nice material in the wiki 19:43:24 <lebarhon> what must we say ? 19:43:50 <lebarhon> I never use Live ISOs 19:44:12 <marja> read they wiki instructions, and when they're still good: copy them to Calenco 19:44:27 <marja> I'm not sure UEFI got added 19:45:11 <papoteur> The partitionning step is the same as in the classical install 19:45:17 <marja> kernewes (isolde/ carolyn) wrote a nice page 19:45:49 <lebarhon> In Live mode is UEFI/MSDOS automatically detected ? 19:45:56 <papoteur> We have think wherre to put it also. 19:46:20 <papoteur> lebarhon: yes. I do it last week. 19:46:55 <papoteur> grub2-efi is installed at the last step 19:47:02 <marja> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Installation_of_Mageia_from_a_Live_CD 19:47:25 <marja> that page dates from before UEFI 19:47:56 <papoteur> marja: Yes 19:48:52 <marja> lebarhon: I think the only iso without UEFI detection, is the dual iso 19:49:02 <lebarhon> Mageia 2 and still a draft ! 19:49:08 <marja> lebarhon: and the 32bit LiveCDs 19:49:09 <papoteur> I will first propose a structure for his part, and then we can continue to discuss 19:49:20 <marja> papoteur: thx 19:50:16 <lebarhon> +1 19:50:30 <papoteur> #info Papoteur proposes a struture for documentation on Live installation 19:50:59 <papoteur> other topic ? 19:51:08 <papoteur> Not for me. 19:51:14 <marja> nor for me 19:51:43 <marja> topic "good night and sleep well" ;-) 19:52:04 <lebarhon> not really a topic but wdyt about to have isodumper in the right click menu ? 19:52:05 <papoteur> marja: no you forgot "Next meeting" 19:52:21 <marja> papoteur: in two weeks, as said on the calendar? 19:52:36 <marja> only 30 minutes earler than the calendar says 19:52:57 <papoteur> marja: Ok for me 19:52:59 <marja> lebarhon: which right click menu? 19:53:10 <marja> lebarhon: for each DE? 19:53:28 <papoteur> in dolphin? 19:53:50 <lebarhon> when you right click on a USB key, like a "format" command 19:54:10 <lebarhon> in each files browsers 19:54:38 <marja> ah... I don't know how that's handled, probably differently for each file browser 19:54:51 <lebarhon> in the old ages, you had "format" in the contextual menu 19:54:59 <papoteur> lebarhon: I will ask to specialist, but yes, it is a good idea 19:55:06 <marja> lebarhon: would be nice, indeed 19:55:21 <marja> as would having it added to MCC be 19:55:32 <lebarhon> USB sticks are the new floppy 19:56:00 <marja> papoteur: there was a bug report with a patch to add isodumper to MCC? 19:56:08 <lebarhon> maybe a Mageia 6 feature 19:56:32 <papoteur> marja: not a bug report, but a message with a patch. 19:56:45 <marja> papoteur: a mailing list message? 19:56:49 <papoteur> yes 19:57:12 <papoteur> I can grab it 19:57:20 <marja> papoteur: I'm not sure I still have that mail... do you mind adding it to a bug report 19:57:39 <papoteur> marja: yes. 19:58:00 <marja> papoteur: maybe david_david has time to test it (or I can, when my health's back) 19:58:35 <marja> papoteur: now is the time to push it to cauldron... it'll be harder once iso testing has begun 19:58:55 <papoteur> marja: yes, I will copy to you to 19:59:06 <marja> papoteur: thx a lot! 19:59:33 <papoteur> I work also on a yui version. 19:59:45 <marja> when it's fine in cauldron, it can be backported to Mga5 :-) 19:59:53 <marja> papoteur: I know ;-) 20:00:32 <papoteur> OK, thus, it's the end? 20:00:39 <papoteur> 5 20:00:43 <papoteur> 4 20:00:48 <papoteur> 3 20:00:50 <marja> lebarhon: are you ok with meeting same time in two weeks? 20:00:59 <lebarhon> OK 20:01:07 <papoteur> 2 20:01:13 <papoteur> 1 20:01:14 <lebarhon> thanks papoteur and Marja 20:01:21 <papoteur> #endmeeting