19:01:35 <marja> #startmeeting
19:01:35 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Mon Jul 29 19:01:35 2013 UTC.  The chair is marja. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:01:35 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:01:41 <marja> welcome all :)
19:01:53 <marja> #chair grenoya
19:01:53 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: grenoya marja
19:01:59 <marja> grenoya: :þ
19:02:13 <marja> papoteur: you should be chair, too
19:02:19 <marja> #chair papoteur
19:02:19 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: grenoya marja papoteur
19:02:42 <marja> #topic the message in the last screen of traditional installer http://doc.mageia.org/installer/3/en/content/exitInstall.html
19:02:43 <[mbot> [ Congratulations ]
19:03:39 <marja> #info as papoteur pointed out, there are some related feature proposals
19:04:10 <marja> #link https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:MageiaWelcome
19:04:25 <marja> #link https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:NewbieHow-To
19:04:47 <marja> #info they have both been accepted, and are to be merged
19:05:01 <lebarhon> hello, sorry, I am late
19:05:09 <marja> lebarhon: np, welcome :)
19:05:26 <lebarhon> not so late, it is not 21 UTC yet
19:05:52 <marja> lebarhon: did I say 21 UTC on the ml? .... if so: OOPS
19:05:53 <papoteur> lebarhon: ;)
19:06:03 <yurchor> Hi all!
19:06:08 <marja> yurchor: hi :)
19:06:14 <ryoshu> hi yurchor
19:07:01 <marja> I did not offer docteam help for those feature proposals, but feel free to disagree
19:07:02 <papoteur> marja: do you know what kind of application this would seem.
19:07:32 <marja> papoteur: it looks like some kind of slide show is intended, but maybe my interpretation is wrong
19:08:20 <grenoya> I think the shape will depend on us and our implication
19:08:42 <marja> ah, the Marcello Anni one looks like a slideshow, the other like a screen where you can click things
19:09:19 <ryoshu> napcok will be back and focusing on MageiaWelcome soon
19:09:32 <marja> grenoya: would it technically be possible to link to already existing MCC help pages from there?
19:09:44 <marja> grenoya: from the Mageia welcome, I mean
19:09:51 <papoteur> I think that we can be implied by this feature. Even we do not program the application.
19:09:59 <grenoya> marja: you mean doc.mageia.org pages or the one inside MCC ?
19:10:16 <grenoya> from the web page: yes of course!
19:10:32 <marja> grenoya: well, there is already the complete MCC manual, that is now installed the first time you click "help" in MCC
19:10:35 <yurchor> marja: I think it would be relatively easy as they use KHTML or WebKit anyway.
19:10:42 <grenoya> I think the text should come from us, not from dev :)
19:11:22 * marja is fine with the text coming from us, but redoing things we already did wouldn't be nice
19:11:27 <grenoya> marja: yes, but a real newbee won't know about MCC. That's the point of those features
19:12:34 <marja> grenoya: well, yes, but the moment a newbee is told he can use MCC to update his packages, the related pages in MCC should be shown, not new help pages that tell the same again
19:12:37 <grenoya> We should write it for real new comers, guide them into our world and sawing them tips
19:13:11 <grenoya> I'm not talking about many pages
19:13:26 <papoteur> At this step, I think we can say what would be good for us, and to give directives to the developpers.
19:13:43 <grenoya> Imagine you have a new comer sitting next to you, what would you tell him in 30min ?
19:13:48 <marja> grenoya: well, if you want something very step-by-step and easy, then there are some wiki pages
19:13:59 <marja> like the one from macxi
19:14:11 <grenoya> marja: for that you must know about the wiki
19:14:24 <marja> grenoya: yes, so we could link to it
19:14:37 <marja> grenoya: or package those pages
19:14:52 <grenoya> maybe even just 1 page could be enough: explaining what kind of information they could find where (with little examples)
19:15:04 <marja> grenoya: yes, that sounds good
19:15:06 <lebarhon> newcomers come from Windows and know what a wiki is
19:15:09 <grenoya> not just link! we have to explain, to talk to them
19:15:29 <grenoya> lebarhon: not my collegues :)
19:15:34 <grenoya> nor my parents
19:15:52 <lebarhon> they rare enough to be in a museum :)
19:15:55 <marja> grenoya: including where to find information about their DE (upstream, in my opinion, or in the handbooks that are packaged)
19:16:01 <lebarhon> *they are...
19:16:17 * Kernewes thinks MageiaWelcome looks a lot like the Mint welcome screen
19:16:44 <ryoshu> Kernewes: it will be probably forked from Mint
19:16:44 <yurchor> Current implementation for Mint is not too inspiring in a sense of using docteam textts. Is it worth to create all the texts on the wiki first?
19:16:50 <papoteur> Kernewes: ahve you a link about Mint?
19:16:52 <marja> Kernewes: stealing something good isn't wrong, especially not when it is OpenSource :)
19:17:20 <Kernewes> http://www.linuxmint.com/rel_olivia_whatsnew.php#mdm
19:17:21 <[mbot> [ New features in Linux Mint 15 - Linux Mint ]
19:17:33 <grenoya> yurchor: yes, begining on the wiki semms a good idea :)
19:17:33 <Kernewes> scroll down to System Improvements
19:18:04 <yurchor> Mint implementation is very simple, basically it is this file: https://github.com/linuxmint/mintwelcome/blob/master/usr/lib/linuxmint/mintWelcome/mintWelcome.py
19:18:05 <[mbot> [ mintwelcome/usr/lib/linuxmint/mintWelcome/mintWelcome.py at master · linuxmint/mintwelcome · GitHub ]
19:18:35 <Kernewes> I'd like ours to look a bit different
19:18:52 <yurchor> It can be rewritten in anything from Qt/KDE plasmoid to GTK+/Glade application.
19:18:59 <yurchor> But texts...
19:19:08 <grenoya> python \o/
19:19:15 * marja suggests anyone who wants to help with this, to add his/her name to the feature page
19:19:21 <yurchor> It should be first put in the code, then translated.
19:19:24 <papoteur> We are not limited to static texts. It can be screencasts.
19:19:26 * lebarhon think the Mint page is more for geeks than nexcomers
19:20:21 <ryoshu> welcome napcok!
19:20:21 <marja> napcok: welcome
19:20:27 <napcok> hello
19:20:42 <ryoshu> napcok is the author of the MageiaWelcome feature
19:20:43 <yurchor> papoteur: If it will be like this is implemented now, there are two possibilities: static HTML/QML or static Glade code.
19:20:48 <ryoshu> feel free to ask him now :)
19:20:55 <marja> napcok: we're talking about your welcome feature
19:21:14 <marja> napcok: many here feel that docteam should help
19:21:58 <marja> napcok: besides, the last installer screen promises a post-install chapter in a manual we don't (yet) have
19:22:00 <napcok> oh nice, mageiaWelcome + Newbie HowTo
19:22:10 <marja> napcok: yes :)
19:22:42 <papoteur> napcok: Can you explain which features would be possible with what you mean/prepare?
19:22:54 <marja> napcok: did you already work something out with Marcello Anni ?
19:23:17 <napcok> i'm working on it and I think i can show you first version next week
19:23:29 <marja> napcok: nice :)
19:24:14 <lebarhon> napcok: is it new help or links towards exixting help ?
19:24:59 <napcok> lebarhon, i don't know anything about Newbie Howto for now
19:25:12 <lebarhon> Ok :)
19:26:14 <napcok> i will try to contact author of Newbie Howto proposal
19:26:51 <napcok> yurchor, is python + webkit (html,css, javascript)
19:27:52 <papoteur> napcok: Can be videos read?
19:27:55 <yurchor> napcok: So this is Python/GTK+/Glade implementation or KDE plasmoid?
19:28:17 <napcok> python + webkitgtk
19:28:30 <yurchor> napcok: Thanks.
19:29:23 <yurchor> So there should be 2 diffrent applications: Welcome for GNOME/Xfce and Newbie guide for KDE?
19:29:53 <napcok> mageiaWelcome will be desktop independent
19:30:21 <yurchor> Does KDE flavour installs WebKitGTK?
19:30:24 <grenoya> yurchor: nothing specific for KDE has been accepted
19:30:46 <yurchor> grenoya: Plasmoid needs KDELibs.
19:31:01 <napcok> yurchor, probably not
19:31:46 <ryoshu> IIRC there were two or three webkits gtk, qt and one more
19:32:16 <ryoshu> but this is a low-level detail
19:32:20 <napcok> i will try to prepare "demo" version for next week dev-meeting
19:32:30 <grenoya> yurchor: that won't be plasmoid
19:32:35 <papoteur> Thus, I understand that we can prepare somethink in the wiki, and thae pages could be taken to consist the Welcome page(s).
19:32:48 <grenoya> yes
19:32:56 <marja> ryoshu: one of these http://sophie.zarb.org/chat/gEXKoDic
19:32:58 <yurchor> grenoya: This tells about plasmoid: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:NewbieHow-To
19:33:06 <marja> ryoshu: ?
19:33:12 <grenoya> #info We will start writing on the wiki
19:33:42 <ryoshu> yurchor: plasmoid hadn't been accepted
19:33:50 <napcok> plasmoid is KDE only
19:34:05 <grenoya> yurchor: but the KDE specific part has not been accepted! in the merge of the two feature it has been asked to be DE independent
19:34:08 <ryoshu> it was just merged into the MageiWelcome proposal
19:34:17 <yurchor> And WebKitGTK+ is Python + WebKit + GTK
19:34:57 <ryoshu> yurchor: in other words, have you got something else to propose?
19:34:58 <ryoshu> in mind
19:35:50 <yurchor> ryoshu: It should be discussed with developers and packagers first.
19:36:08 <ryoshu> yurchor: napcok is fully responsible for it
19:36:35 <yurchor> It can be two different faces of the same application: one for Qt and one for GTK+
19:36:36 <ryoshu> the key idea was to make it desktop independent
19:36:36 <napcok> for mageiawelcome not for writing Newbie HowTo
19:37:15 <napcok> yurchor, i have no experience with plasmoids for nom
19:37:21 <marja> napcok: so how do you see the merge... that there'll be links in the mageiawelcome to the howto?
19:37:22 <napcok> for now
19:37:44 <napcok> marja, link or Howto itself
19:37:47 <yurchor> Say, welcome-qt (for KDE and LXDE/Razor) and welcomer-gtk for GNOME/Xfce.
19:37:53 <marja> napcok: OK :)
19:37:57 <grenoya> guys, technical dev details are not of our responsabilities, let's focus on the texts problem
19:38:01 <papoteur> yurchor: for what I know, GTK is already used for MCC, even in KDE.
19:38:29 * marja thinks grenoya is right ^^^
19:38:33 <yurchor> papoteur: And one of the goals now to get rid of it. ;)
19:38:44 <ryoshu> papoteur: there is a project libyui to make it independent and desktop agnostinc GTK/QT and CURSES
19:38:52 <grenoya> so, to sum up: we start writing on the wiki and napcok show us a mockup next week, is that OK ?
19:39:02 <napcok> ok :)
19:39:03 <yurchor> Ok. So the text should be DE independent anyway.
19:39:16 <grenoya> #info napcok show us a mockup next week
19:39:17 <marja> yes, fine with me (if I don't have to do the writing :þ)
19:39:29 <grenoya> marja: #info doesn't seem to work for me :/
19:39:31 <yurchor> And better write them in parallel to application on wiki, right?
19:40:05 <marja> grenoya: I think it does. you never see anything when you do that
19:40:11 <grenoya> ok
19:40:38 <grenoya> so next part of the topic: New comer's guide announced in the installer
19:40:58 <grenoya> #topic New comer's guide
19:41:23 <grenoya> marja: what are we supposed to write in that guide ?
19:41:39 <grenoya> unless the plan is to change the last slide of installer ?
19:42:59 <marja> grenoya: I think it should mostly be links to existing documentation...... and it is not a new comers' guide, but a post install chapter in the official Mageia Manual
19:43:08 <papoteur> The first steps to do to have a complete system.
19:43:13 <marja> grenoya: I think that text should be changed
19:43:14 <grenoya> oops
19:44:00 <marja> grenoya: I think whoever wrote that, had in mind that we should have a "Mageia Mastering Manual", similar to Mandriva's
19:44:19 <papoteur> I think somethink like in the MLO wiki. http://www.mageialinux-online.org/wiki/configurer-mageia
19:45:02 <marja> grenoya: we'll end up having something similar, when we merge all our documentation (MCC help, installer help, to be written helps) in one manual
19:45:05 <grenoya> marja: The text was already there in mga2
19:45:11 <marja> grenoya: byt we aren't that far yet
19:45:37 <grenoya> we should have ask it to be removed earlier /o\
19:45:41 <marja> grenoya: ouch!.... maybe it was the Mdv text, and Mandriva Linux was replaced by Mageia
19:45:55 <marja> grenoya: indeed :-[
19:46:00 <grenoya> yep
19:46:18 <grenoya> so what do we decide? we get rid of it ?
19:46:28 <marja> grenoya: i vote for getting rid of it
19:46:33 * yurchor wonders if it is possible to write newcomers guide at all. Different people have complete different needs.
19:46:43 <grenoya> and when we will have some more content we'll ask it back
19:46:44 <marja> yurchor: true
19:46:57 <grenoya> yurchor: well said :)
19:46:58 <marja> grenoya: yes, and give it the proper name
19:47:35 <grenoya> #info the last slide of installer whould be changed to remove any reference to inexistant guide
19:47:46 <marja> grenoya: or, if the Mageia Welcome is very good, just mention that in the last installer screen
19:48:00 <grenoya> marja: yes, very sensible
19:48:03 <marja> grenoya: and the MageiaWelcome will do the rest
19:48:16 <grenoya> any objection to that ?
19:48:23 * Kernewes thinks that's a good idea
19:48:34 <papoteur> grenoya: No, it's fine
19:48:44 <grenoya> good :)
19:48:48 <marja> :)
19:48:55 <grenoya> anything else on that subject?
19:49:22 <marja> grenoya: an action for someone to ask tv, or ask in a bug report :þ
19:49:23 <Kernewes> grenoya: not from me
19:49:29 <papoteur> do we envisage to do a "mageia Master Manual" ?
19:49:43 <grenoya> marja: isn't it from our texts ?
19:49:54 <grenoya> oh no, you're right
19:50:00 <marja> grenoya: no, it isn't
19:50:11 <marja> grenoya: I'm not sure about Live installs, btw
19:50:23 <grenoya> papoteur: well it will come by itself with the time
19:50:43 <grenoya> who will ask tv ?
19:50:54 <papoteur> But it can have different supoprt ?
19:50:59 <marja> papoteur: it is easy to make a seperate publication, in which MCC help, installer help and other helps we write are joined to one big manual
19:51:35 <marja> grenoya: I don't mind asking (but might forget)
19:51:56 <papoteur> Yes, if we have written them in Docbook format.
19:52:01 <grenoya> #todo marja ask tv for the last slide changement
19:52:20 <marja> grenoya: you're a good leader :)
19:52:30 <grenoya> papoteur: what is in the wiki could be migrated to docbook one day too
19:52:42 <papoteur> OK
19:52:48 <grenoya> marja: don't start now :)
19:52:55 <marja> grenoya: lol
19:52:55 <ryoshu> marja: 'http://sophie.zarb.org/chat/gEXKoDic' yes, there are dozens of webkits in the name ; sorry it was just opened now
19:52:57 <grenoya> so next topic ?
19:53:20 <marja> fine with me
19:53:30 <grenoya> #topic new meeting time?
19:53:41 <marja> yes, fine
19:53:55 <grenoya> what is your feeling about the poll's result ?
19:54:11 <marja> http://studs.u-strasbg.fr/studs.php?sondage=61j62pmbfjhp18jn#bas
19:54:13 <[mbot> [ STUdS ! ]
19:54:39 <grenoya> thanks marja :)
19:55:21 <marja> I have the feeling several docteam members missed the poll
19:55:47 <yurchor> Vacations, maybe?
19:56:02 <grenoya> marja: do you think we should postpone the decision ?
19:56:06 <marja> yurchor: yes, or too busy, like Qilaq
19:56:42 <marja> grenoya: I think we can keep the current meeting time for now, and then try again after the holidays
19:57:05 <grenoya> marja: by current you mean 17 UTC or 19UTC ?
19:57:19 * marja would like to have a meeting in the weekend, once in a while, too, for those across the ocean
19:57:25 <marja> grenoya: 19UTC
19:57:41 <marja> grenoya: it is evident that 17h UTC is too hard for most
19:57:56 <marja> grenoya: only: it can't be when there is a council meeting
19:58:11 <grenoya> we can try to do short meetings?
19:58:58 <marja> grenoya: if you are willing to lead the meeting when there is a council meeting, then I don't mind, I can shift between channels if I'm not the only leader of one meeting
19:59:48 <grenoya> marja: I can try, I can't promise anything for August tho'
19:59:51 <marja> grenoya: last thursday shifting between i18n and QA, just attending the meetings, went well
20:00:00 <marja> grenoya: thx... and no problem
20:00:25 <marja> grenoya: the first weeks there won't be a council meeting :)
20:00:27 <grenoya> #info until summer vacantion end meeting will be at 19UTC
20:00:40 <marja> grenoya: council is on holiday ;-)
20:00:54 <grenoya> #info new poll in september (with more people answering ?)
20:01:07 <grenoya> anything else to add?
20:01:14 <ryoshu> yes!
20:01:16 <lebarhon> may be a meeting each other week is enough ?
20:01:45 <ryoshu> I've got a screen shot of MageiaWelcome, let me know when to show it
20:02:03 <ryoshu> to make the vision of it
20:02:21 <marja> lebarhon: when we run out of topics
20:02:33 <marja> ryoshu: yes, post the link please
20:02:52 <ryoshu> http://repo.mageia.org.pl/mageiaWelcome1.png here you are
20:03:10 <grenoya> lebarhon: I'm not sure to understand (maybe my bad English fault)
20:03:19 <lebarhon> marja: more topics can be discussed in ml
20:03:51 <yurchor> ryoshu: Very nice. Thanks.
20:03:52 <marja> ryoshu: ah, nice.... with the newbuie howto in the menu :)
20:03:55 <lebarhon> grenoya: one week out of two
20:03:58 <ryoshu> it's a very early stage of the software though
20:04:33 <marja> lebarhon: we are more productive now, than we would have been doing the same on the ml
20:04:34 <papoteur> ryoshu: What means "Apps"
20:05:16 <grenoya> lebarhon: from my POV, maybe later in the release dev
20:05:47 <marja> lebarhon: grenoya proposed to have just a short meeting when there is a council meeting
20:05:51 <ryoshu> the original idea was to help install task-codec(s) and common pieces of software like flash
20:06:08 <grenoya> we do have things to discuss now (MageiaWelcome, new pages...) and we will have less in 2-3 months
20:06:09 <ryoshu> but it evoluates with time
20:06:11 <marja> lebarhon: so then there would be a full meeting only every other week
20:06:22 <papoteur> ryoshu: Ok.
20:06:57 <Kernewes> ryoshu: it would be useful to have a quick link to install non-free stuff like those things
20:07:14 <marja> lebarhon: of course you're not obliged to be present..... you're a volunteer (a very much esteemed one :-) )
20:07:21 <ryoshu> there is already mgaextra, do you know of it?
20:07:35 <Kernewes> ryoshu: no
20:07:45 <papoteur> ryoshu: No, what is it?
20:08:21 * marja doesn't know mgaextra, either
20:08:27 <ryoshu> it was a python script with gui to help select repositories (including 3rd party one) and install 'the best' software
20:08:52 <grenoya> ryoshu: then this is not official and won't be!
20:08:59 <marja> an official mageia script?
20:09:18 <ryoshu> but since there were problems with remixing of Mageia post the release of Mga2, it wasn't included in an local iso
20:09:38 <marja> ah, not official
20:09:42 <ryoshu> grenoya: yes, but maybe it's good to move some ideas inside mageiawelcome
20:09:45 <napcok> ryoshu, but is old, unofficial and polish only
20:09:53 <grenoya> ryoshu: no script linking to third party repositories will be accepted
20:10:15 <ryoshu> grenoya: I'm not advocating it
20:10:18 <napcok> grenoya, sure
20:10:43 <grenoya> maybe we could stop the meeting and continue the discussion after ?
20:11:17 <ryoshu> napcok: am I right about merging some ideas into MW?
20:11:18 <marja> yes, everything that was needed has been discussed, I think
20:11:44 <grenoya> #endmeeting