18:00:08 <marja> #startmeeting
18:00:08 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Mon Feb 11 18:00:08 2013 UTC.  The chair is marja. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:00:08 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
18:00:23 * marja welcome to our meeting, everyone
18:00:51 <papoteur> lebarhon: Are you from Switzerland? Exactly at 19.
18:01:00 <marja> #topic out members
18:01:13 <marja> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Documentation_team#Members
18:01:22 <lebarhon> Papoteur: no Normandie
18:01:45 <lebarhon> I sometoimes have chance
18:02:09 <papoteur> lebarhon: It's time to be serious.
18:02:26 <marja> #info on our team members list, there are several people who (to me) seem to be inactive, also, not everyone who contributed to docteam is on it
18:02:58 <Kernewes> is workaholic OK, I haven't seen him around for ages
18:03:25 * marja wonders whether some users are waiting to be addressed personally, like "hi, we need someone to do this, do you have time to do it?"
18:03:42 <marja> Kernewes: no, he isn't, his energy left him
18:03:49 <Kernewes> oh what a shame
18:03:56 <marja> Kernewes: it certainly is
18:04:11 <Kernewes> are all the users on the wiki list on the mailing list
18:04:21 <Kernewes> do they all know what needs doing?
18:04:23 <marja> Kernewes: I'm not sure
18:05:22 * marja does anyone have time to compare the team members on that list in the wiki with the members of our ml?
18:05:38 <Kernewes> perhaps we could put a page on the team wiki section listing what needs doing
18:05:52 <Kernewes> maybe a blog post drawing attention to it
18:05:55 <lebarhon> Where do you see the ml list ?
18:06:27 <lebarhon> Kernewes:this list exists
18:06:43 <Kernewes> lebarhon: I haven't seen that one
18:06:48 <marja> Kernewes: https://ml.mageia.org/l/info/doc-discuss if you log in, you can see the members
18:06:49 <[mbot> [ doc-discuss - Discussions about Mageia documentation - info ]
18:07:26 <Kernewes> oh you mean the mailing list, I thought you meant a list of what needs doing
18:07:27 <marja> Kernewes: do we not have a link to it on our team page? (if so: OOPS)
18:07:48 <Kernewes> marja: perhaps we have and I didn't notice :)
18:08:14 <marja> Kernewes: we have it https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Documentation_team#How_to_contact.2Fjoin_the_team
18:08:32 <marja> Kernewes: but apparently, it does not stick out enough
18:08:59 <lebarhon> A todo list is on the wiki doc team page
18:09:12 <Kernewes> lebarhon: where is that?
18:11:11 * simonnzg needs to remember that 18:00 UTC is 18:00 UK time...
18:11:18 <marja> Kernewes: I added a line under that link in the wiki, is it clear enough now?
18:11:22 <simonnzg> Evening all...
18:11:27 <lebarhon> I am looking for it ..
18:11:29 <marja> simonnzg: welcome :)
18:11:49 <simonnzg> I now know why I missed the last meeting. Sorry for being late.
18:12:08 <marja> simonnzg: np, it is good that you're here now
18:12:34 <simonnzg> marja: Have I missed anything?
18:12:38 <marja> simonnzg: we were talking about
18:12:39 <marja> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Documentation_team#Members
18:12:40 <marja> ** Do we have inactive members, who are waiting to be personally asked to do something?
18:12:42 <marja> ** Is our members' list complete?
18:13:00 <lebarhon> here https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Missing_documentation
18:13:08 <marja> simonnzg: it turned out, that the link to our ml did not stick out enough, I hope it is better now
18:13:19 <marja> lebarhon: thx
18:13:46 <simonnzg> marja: Aha.  I'm inactive and waiting for a direct task to do.  Mainly bevause I have absolutely too much to do and I am too tired to go looking for things, but if I get told "Do this page on this URI" then I think I can manage.. ;-)
18:13:50 <Kernewes> that's fine for a list of missing docs but not everyone feels able to write something
18:14:00 <Kernewes> we need to let people know what needs translating, proof reading etc
18:14:07 <marja> lebarhon: I had forgotten about that page :[
18:14:27 <papoteur> Thus, I think that the page is not sufficiently developed
18:14:34 <marja> simonnzg: thx
18:14:39 <lebarhon> Translating isn't our job
18:15:00 <Kernewes> lebarhon: ok, proof reading and technical checking etc
18:15:44 <marja> lebarhon: some how, we ended up having "our own" translators, many of whom were never a member of i18n
18:16:09 <lebarhon> Some translators subscribed to i18n
18:16:18 <lebarhon> but most of this team job for months was to fix software problems. So they left
18:16:19 <marja> lebarhon: true, several did
18:16:31 <lebarhon> Actually, the translations I have done so far came from the doc-team.
18:16:37 <papoteur> I had asked for proof reading the MCC documentation on ml, but without great success.
18:17:06 <Kernewes> any response from the forums?
18:17:18 <lebarhon> English people are too few
18:17:56 <simonnzg> lebarhon: One is enough ;-)
18:18:13 <lebarhon> if he is available
18:18:13 <marja> papoteur: simonnzg just made it clear that it is sometimes better to ask him (and others) directly for a little task instead of doing a call for all
18:18:44 <simonnzg> papoteur: Yes. My problem is actually understanding WHERE to go to find things to proof read!
18:19:26 <papoteur> My calls was not for all, but for specific pages at each time.
18:19:33 <simonnzg> marja: A quick look down the list of people on this chat, and then cross-checking against the list of Doc Team Members, shows a few people not on the DT list.
18:19:46 <papoteur> Ok simonnzg Next time I ask you directly ;)
18:19:50 <marja> simonnzg: in the wiki, https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Calenco_Draktools#List_of_needed_help_texts
18:20:15 <simonnzg> papoteur: Yes, I think I managed to do one of your pages in Calenco a week or so back. I think.  My head hurts.
18:20:32 <marja> simonnzg: ouch,,,,, I didn't know it was that bad
18:20:40 <simonnzg> marja: Yes. I need to tidy up that list as well!
18:21:07 <marja> simonnzg: and if you prefer to write a page, some pages are still missing
18:21:17 <Kernewes> marja: has the problem with the links from that page not updating properly been fixed?
18:21:28 <simonnzg> marja: It's just that my neck hurts from sitting in front of a computer all the time.  I must be getting old(er).
18:21:36 <Kernewes> simonnzg: I know the feeling
18:21:54 <simonnzg> Kernewes: :-)
18:21:58 <marja> Kernewes: yes, I looked yesterday and it worked again, remmy had fixed it
18:22:05 <Kernewes> marja: that's OK then
18:22:13 <marja> simonnzg: ouch!
18:22:43 <marja> simonnzg: take care (and please don't do things for docteam that harm you)
18:23:01 <papoteur> Are some people prefer to write in wiki, instead of Calenco?
18:23:02 <rindolf> Is the meeting over?
18:23:06 <simonnzg> marja: You mean don't do editing that harms the docteam docs?
18:23:09 <Kernewes> papoteur: probably
18:23:14 <marja> rindolf: no, it isn't
18:23:26 <rindolf> marja: ah, sorry, the /topic was not changed.
18:23:40 <Kernewes> papoteur: I wouldn't be able to write in Calenco because there's so much formatting to learn
18:23:49 <marja> simonnzg: of course not.... *you* shouldn't get harmed
18:23:57 <marja> rindolf: I wouldn't know how to do that
18:24:00 <Kernewes> papoteur: I can work out what is formatting and try to avoid it when amending pages but that's all
18:24:25 <simonnzg> papoteur: I find wiki easy. Calenco is not so easy, but not too hard. I was just wondering if I should put a Calenco URL under the name for each page on the List_of_needed_help_texts...
18:24:30 <rindolf> marja: Inigo_Montoya should do it for you.
18:24:52 <marja> rindolf: seems Inigo_Montoya doesn't like docteam ;)
18:24:55 <Kernewes> rindolf: I think there are different topics overlapping here
18:25:01 <marja> rindolf: I've never seen it here
18:25:07 <rindolf> marja: ah.
18:25:18 <marja> Kernewes: thx
18:25:20 <rindolf> marja: maybe Inigo_Montoya lacks the right flags.
18:25:32 * marja back to the topic: our team members
18:26:13 <marja> so what would be best?
18:26:34 <marja> write a mail to all members in that wiki list + one to the ml
18:26:41 <Kernewes> some of the other teams produce a list of easier jobs for newcomers to do
18:26:47 <Kernewes> don't know if that's possible for docteam
18:26:55 <simonnzg> marja: Somehow, we need to update the list. Problem being that those that are no-longer active will not update themselves, so we need to square that circle...
18:26:57 <marja> Kernewes: good idea
18:26:59 <Kernewes> maybe small amendments or proofreading
18:27:04 <Kernewes> rather than writing whole pages
18:27:13 <marja> Kernewes: yep
18:27:24 <simonnzg> Kernewes: Sounds good
18:27:55 <marja> ah! and they could help with the Mga 3 screenshots
18:28:04 <Kernewes> marja: yes :)
18:28:06 <simonnzg> I'm often changing small things on wikis as I read them...
18:28:22 <Kernewes> simonnzg: great, we need to encourage people to do that
18:28:28 <simonnzg> As far as I'm concerned, that's as helpful as putting pages together from scratch.
18:28:39 <Kernewes> people might be worried about changing what someone else has written
18:29:21 <Kernewes> we could say that for the wiki that's OK
18:29:30 <simonnzg> From my company wiki: Almost default text: Please note that all contributions to JRC wiki may be edited, altered, or removed by other contributors. If you do not want your writing to be edited mercilessly, then do not submit it here.
18:29:30 <simonnzg> You are also promising us that you wrote this yourself, or copied it from a public domain or similar free resource (see JRC wiki:Copyrights for details). Do not submit copyrighted work without permission!
18:29:35 <marja> if they are still worried, they should propose an enhancement on the "talk" page
18:29:46 <Kernewes> or the ml
18:29:54 <simonnzg> That's at the bottom of the default Mediawiki editing page..
18:30:07 <Kernewes> simonnzg: I'm sure it is on our wiki
18:30:36 <Kernewes> but people might still be afraid of offending another member
18:30:42 <simonnzg> Almost.
18:31:01 <simonnzg> Kernewes: Yes. The text is almost the same.
18:31:05 <papoteur> I think we can submit some time some pages to review or to write.
18:32:32 <marja> papoteur: maybe it is better to make a Docteam_todo page for that (and put a link in it to the list of needed help texts)
18:33:06 <marja> papoteur: or are you talking about the Calenco docs, now?
18:33:10 <papoteur> marja: one does not exclude the other
18:33:16 <marja> papoteur: true
18:33:33 <papoteur> Not specially Calenco.
18:33:35 <Kernewes> marja: papoteur: and we could make sure people understand the difference between the wiki and the Calenco docs
18:34:07 <marja> anyway, at least two mails need to be written: one to the members on our team page, one to our ml
18:34:33 <lebarhon> To say what ?
18:34:34 <marja> urging people to make sure they are members of both
18:34:58 <marja> if they are members of docteam and not just watching
18:35:42 <lebarhon> And foe which reason they do'nt attend the meetings
18:36:12 <marja> lebarhon: good idea, thx
18:36:49 <simonnzg> lebarhon: I don't attend because i forget.. :-)
18:36:53 <marja> and proposing things they can do
18:37:06 <lebarhon> Do you want me to write these mails?
18:37:10 <marja> simonnzg: google calendar can send you an sms
18:37:23 <marja> lebarhon: if you're volunteering: yes, please!
18:37:26 <Kernewes> how about a blog topic about docs with things like that in it
18:37:41 <Kernewes> they're always wanting ideas for the blog
18:37:42 <marja> Kernewes: do you want to write a blog post?
18:37:42 <simonnzg> marja: IF I REMEMBER I AM IN UTC HERE! - Which I didn't... It will remind me in 23 minutes. :-(
18:37:54 <marja> simonnzg: lol
18:37:55 <Kernewes> marja: well, I could try
18:38:06 <marja> Kernewes: thx a lot!
18:38:12 <Kernewes> marja: where do I put my draft?
18:38:17 * marja is happy with  her team :)
18:38:32 <marja> Kernewes: ah, you don't have blog access?
18:38:40 <Kernewes> marja: I doubt it, I don't know
18:38:48 <marja> Kernewes: than you don't
18:38:55 <Kernewes> marja: in any case, I'll need to know what we want to put on it
18:39:20 <papoteur> Kernewes: on an Etherpad ?
18:39:36 <marja> Kernewes: where you prever.... in the wiki, or on a public pad.... yes etherpad for instance
18:39:41 <Kernewes> papoteur: ok, I could do that if one was set up
18:39:43 <marja> oops
18:39:45 <Kernewes> or on my own wiki page
18:39:50 <marja> s/prever/prefer/
18:39:55 <marja> Kernewes: fine
18:40:10 <Kernewes> you could access my own wiki page to look at it, couldn't you?
18:40:25 <marja> Kernewes: yes
18:40:50 <Kernewes> marja: ok then, when you've had a chance to consider what we've been discussing and what could usefully go in a blog post I'll try to write one
18:40:53 <marja> Kernewes: but google ignores it, so it won't show up in a google search
18:41:18 <Kernewes> marja: somehow it would have be copied or transferred to the blog after I've written it
18:41:34 <marja> true
18:41:44 <Kernewes> I just need somewhere to play with it
18:42:24 <marja> Kernewes: copying won't be much of a problem ;)
18:42:26 <Kernewes> marja: do you want to mention to the team that does the blog that we'll be providing something for it?
18:42:59 <marja> Kernewes: yes, there is a page in the wiki, about suggested blog posts, I'll add it
18:43:22 <Kernewes> marja: fine, then let me know when you've decided what it should include
18:43:34 <marja> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Blog_articles_planning
18:44:10 <marja> Kernewes: I'll start a ml topic about it, together we'll do better
18:44:16 <Kernewes> marja: good idea
18:44:46 <Kernewes> marja: I just prefer not to have to do it by a particular date
18:44:52 <marja> lebarhon: if you did not volunteer, np... but please say
18:45:03 <marja> Kernewes: that is fine
18:45:11 <simonnzg> marja: Just a quick question: Is there any manual document version number update required when editing a document in Calenco?
18:45:19 <lebarhon> marja: It's ok
18:45:39 <lebarhon> I mean to volonteer
18:45:40 <Kernewes> simonnzg: you have to export the file to your computer and then import it again into Calenco
18:45:44 <marja> simonnzg: if you do not use the xxe add-on, then: YES
18:45:51 <marja> lebarhon: perfect
18:46:08 <Kernewes> simonnzg: then you see the version number change
18:46:34 <papoteur> I must leave. Bye bye !
18:46:38 <Kernewes> papoteur: goodbye
18:46:46 <marja> #action lebarhon will write a mail to the members on the doc team page and to the ml, about the things agreed
18:46:51 <marja> papoteur: good eveingin
18:47:47 <marja> #action marja will start a ml thread about what should be in blog post for docteam, after we agreed Kernewes will write a draft
18:48:29 <marja> #actions of last week's meeting
18:49:37 <marja> #info the screenshot problem in Calenco is a new feature to save bandwidth, if normal screenshots are uploaded, they will look fine in the real publication (so outside Calenco)
18:49:55 <marja> Nikerabbit: ping?
18:50:43 <marja> #info none of the KDE team members replied to a mail about Akedemy
18:51:25 <marja> #info lebarhon has greatly improved our internal wiki documentation (for docteam itself)
18:51:45 <lebarhon> there is no xxe package in Cauldron, is that for ever ?
18:52:10 <simonnzg> marja: Kernewes: I was using XXE in-browser, so maybe I should check...  I usually edit in oXygen, but I haven't got it on my work laptop (yet).
18:52:21 <marja> #info we do now have a how-to-package drakx-installer-help, the how to about MCC help is under cinstruction
18:52:37 <Kernewes> simonnzg: I use the Simple Editor feature in Calenco
18:53:06 <marja> lebarhon: I'm afraid that is for ever, there was something with the licence..... isn't there a package on barjac's website anymore?
18:53:28 <marja> #undo
18:53:28 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x844460c>
18:53:29 <lebarhon> no only .tar
18:53:37 <marja> #info we do now have a how-to-package drakx-installer-help, the how to about MCC help is under construction
18:54:11 <marja> rindolf: are you still around?
18:54:22 <rindolf> marja: yes, I am.
18:54:27 <rindolf> marja: how can I help?
18:54:38 <rindolf> marja: I wasn't paying attention - :-(.
18:55:08 <marja> rindolf: are you willing to package xxe and put it somewhere where we can download it from (it can't be in our repositories, I forgot why)
18:55:20 <rindolf> marja: what is xxe?
18:55:22 <simonnzg> Kernewes: I just checked.  Using the full editor, you can save as many times as you like, but the version number will not change until the file is closed.  I just saw diskdrake --fileshare change to 1.8
18:55:46 <marja> rindolf: a wysiwyg xml editor
18:55:47 <Kernewes> simonnzg: ah, thanks for that.
18:55:48 <rindolf> marja: http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/
18:55:49 <[mbot> [ XMLmind XML Editor: A strictly validating, near WYSIWYG, DocBook editor, DITA editor, XHTML editor, MathML editor, XML editor, aimed at technical writers ]
18:55:50 <rindolf> marja: ah.
18:55:59 <rindolf> marja: is there a SUSE/Fedora/etc. package?
18:56:08 <simonnzg> rindolf: That's why we call it XXE.  Easier to type.. ;-)
18:56:17 <marja> :v xxe -d Fc
18:56:17 <Sophie> marja: I don't have such distribution : (Fc, 2, x86_64)
18:56:44 <marja9> :v xxe -d Fc
18:56:44 <Sophie> marja9: I don't have such distribution : (Fc, 2, i586)
18:56:56 <marja> wrong window
18:57:27 <marja> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Blog_articles_planning
18:57:35 <marja> ouch
18:57:44 <marja> wrong paste :/
18:58:00 <marja> 2013:02:11:19:57 <Sophie> The rpm named `xxe' has not been found in (Fc, *, *)
18:58:24 <marja> what is Suse for Sophie?
18:58:47 <marja> 2013:02:11:19:58 <Sophie> The rpm named `xxe' has not been found in (*, *, *)
18:59:01 <marja> maybe it is the wrong name for the package
18:59:26 <marja> 2013:02:11:19:59 <Sophie> The rpm named `xml-editor' has not been found in (*, *, *)
18:59:31 <simonnzg> I just searched Mint for xxe, xmlmind and calenco and got nothing.  Interestingly, searching for "calenco" brings up every package in the distribution in Synaptic.  I wonder if it's in the meta data (as editor) that Synaptic searches?
19:00:40 <simonnzg> marja: XML editors of any use are very thin on the ground. XXE is available from Calenco, but only as a cut-down feature version. It's not bad, bbut it's usually easier to use the full web editing window instead.
19:00:41 <marja> rindolf: it seems there is no existing Fc or Suse package
19:01:23 <marja> simonnzg: I thought that to get the Calenco add-on to work well, you need to have it installed
19:01:29 <marja> too
19:01:44 <marja> simonnzg: am I wrong about that?
19:02:08 <simonnzg> http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/
19:02:09 <[mbot> [ XMLmind XML Editor: A strictly validating, near WYSIWYG, DocBook editor, DITA editor, XHTML editor, MathML editor, XML editor, aimed at technical writers ]
19:02:29 <simonnzg> marja: Whoops. I didn't mean to paste that URI again.
19:02:51 <marja> simonnzg: np, I've been doing wrong pastes, too :)
19:02:58 <simonnzg> marja: No. All you need is a Java-enabled web browser. NOt as easy to find as it once was!
19:03:50 <marja> simonnzg: but for all those who don't manage to get that to work, and who hate to edit in a text-editor, xxe is still wanted
19:05:54 * marja does anyone have anything else on this topic (last week's #Actions)?
19:06:08 <Kernewes> I don't think so
19:06:37 <marja> #topic wiki documentation
19:07:54 <marja> #info Before adding some new pages, Macxi asked for permission. He was told to go  ahead, even if the new pages were partly duplicates of existing pages, because his really add something
19:08:04 <marja> JohnR: Welcome back !!
19:08:12 <Kernewes> JohnR: hello
19:08:16 <JohnR> hi all, just came in
19:08:26 <marja> JohnR: here's a big hug (only if you want it!)
19:08:46 <JohnR> marja: Thx, need it - so so tired :-)
19:09:03 <Kernewes> JohnR: have another hug as well, then
19:09:12 <marja> JohnR: thx for popping in, in spite of the fatigue
19:09:40 <simonnzg> JohnR: Hello Stranger.
19:09:49 <marja> Kernewes: JohnR will never leave again, being hugged by 2 women ;)
19:09:57 <Kernewes> marja: :)
19:09:58 <JohnR> lol!
19:10:01 <JohnR> hi simonnzg
19:10:10 <simonnzg> marja: Probably killed him... ;-)
19:10:17 <marja> simonnzg: :þ
19:10:23 <Kernewes> simonnzg: you'd better not hug him, people will talk
19:10:38 <simonnzg> Kernewes: I'll try not to..
19:10:54 <JohnR> Not way! simonnzg gives lovely hugs!
19:10:55 <marja> simonnzg: but if you move to Brazil, it is no problem :)
19:11:19 <marja> simonnzg: it seems you should let people talk
19:12:07 <simonnzg> marja: We English don't do such things. I mean, I have to even think which cheek to kiss first when greeting you continental types!
19:12:42 <JohnR> simonnzg: the one in the middle near the top?
19:13:02 <simonnzg> JohnR: I thought the only thing you Kiwis hugged was a beer. ;-)
19:13:02 <marja> simonnzg: lol  .... in 10 years, things can change a lot.... when I was a child, my parents told me kissing = transferring diseases
19:13:11 <marja> simonnzg: even kissing on the cheek!
19:13:28 <marja> simonnzg: we shook hands with our parents and uncles etc
19:13:35 <JohnR> marja: Hell! I thought is was PC today :-)
19:13:47 <Kernewes> marja: really?
19:13:49 <marja> JohnR: what is PC?
19:14:04 <JohnR> politicall correct :-)
19:14:09 <simonnzg> marja: Nothing I hate more than a limp handshake. The number of cold, slightly damp, limp hands I have shaken recently. Ugh.
19:14:11 <JohnR> politicaly correct :-)
19:14:17 <marja> Kernewes: yep..... my dad froze if I tried to kiss him on his cheek
19:14:29 <Kernewes> marja: oh, thats awful
19:14:32 <marja> simonnzg: hate that, too
19:14:40 <Kernewes> simonnzg: so do I
19:15:02 <Kernewes> simonnzg: our new head of accounts practically lifts you off the ground with her handshake
19:15:08 * marja proposes to postpone the rest of the meeting to next week....... wdyt?
19:15:18 <simonnzg> marja: Are we still in the meeting?
19:15:43 <Kernewes> marja: is the rest of it very long?
19:15:46 <marja> simonnzg: yes ... but JohnR's return made us forget :-D
19:15:50 <Kernewes> marja: poor John's only just arrived
19:16:16 <marja> JohnR: can you decide, please..... do you want the official meeting to continue?
19:16:34 <marja> JohnR: if so, fine with me :)
19:17:19 <JohnR> go ahead it's no problem. I'll catch up the rest from logs
19:17:30 <marja> JohnR: OK :)
19:18:27 <lebarhon> We are waiting for me, so if you stop it's not a problem for me
19:18:45 <marja> about macxi's pages....... his are for beginners, and when the one(s) about the same topic are for beginners, too, it is best to merge them
19:19:08 <marja> lebarhon: thx
19:19:40 <marja> the merging was already decided for one Macxi page with two similar ones
19:19:47 <lebarhon> see you later, good evening all
19:19:54 <Kernewes> lebarhon: bye
19:19:55 <marja> lebarhon: good night!
19:20:50 <marja> However, if for another of Macxi's pages, the similar ones are for advanced users, I propose to let them exist side by side
19:21:17 <marja> wdyt?
19:21:42 <Kernewes> we have a section for pages for newcomers, don't we
19:21:51 <Kernewes> so one page will be in that section and the other one in the other section
19:21:55 <Kernewes> should be OK
19:22:05 <marja> Kernewes: there is a page that links to pages for new comers
19:22:10 <Kernewes> marja: yes
19:22:11 <marja> Kernewes: yes
19:22:44 <marja> JohnR: simonnzg: wdyt?
19:23:48 <JohnR> marja: My inclination is to use links etc for beginner/expert text, are we talking about the wiki?
19:23:54 <simonnzg> marja: I've looked at the newcomer's pages, even tidied one or two of them up, but they seem a bit un-coordinated?
19:24:06 <marja> JohnR: yes we are
19:24:16 <Kernewes> simonnzg: the newcomers' section is quite new
19:24:21 * JohnR needs to catch up on a month's email I think
19:24:33 <Kernewes> simonnzg: as we get more pages they probably will need organising
19:25:07 <marja> simonnzg: and we allowed macxi to add duplicate pages (which are really good)
19:25:11 <Kernewes> JohnR: you mean one link to the newbie pages and one link to the advanced pages?
19:25:34 <simonnzg> Kernewes: It is.  I was thinking we should do a themed "workflow" set of beginner's documents, but I am at a loss how to do "Perfect Desktop Installation" for Mageia.  It's easy for Mint/Ubuntu, etc...
19:25:42 <JohnR> Kernewes: Yes, makes sense to me
19:26:00 <Kernewes> JohnR: I agree
19:26:21 <marja> JohnR: Kernewes I agree too
19:26:31 <Kernewes> simonnzg: I know what you mean
19:26:34 <marja> simonnzg: I'm afraid I'm a bit blind
19:26:56 <marja> simonnzg: thankfully, Kernewes knows what you mean :-D
19:27:05 <Kernewes> marja: well I hope I do
19:27:23 <Kernewes> simonnzg: you mean like a sequence of pages going from one topic on to another
19:27:27 <simonnzg> marja: I like macxi's pages. Colourful.
19:27:34 <marja> simonnzg: ah :)
19:27:45 <marja> #chair simonnzg
19:27:45 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: marja simonnzg
19:28:06 <marja> simonnzg: do you mind putting that in an action?
19:28:20 <simonnzg> Kernewes: Yes, a page sequence.  I found that following the Ubuntu "Perfect Server" installtion paths were really useful - lots of command line stuff that could be simply cut and pasted.
19:29:42 <marja> #agreed start a wiki page with links for advanced users
19:30:25 <marja> simonnzg: or an #agreed? I don't feel comfortable putting it into words
19:32:05 <marja> simonnzg: that sounds like "no" :-D
19:32:45 <simonnzg> marja: Sorry. My brother is on Skype with an MS Outlook problem. I just told him to get a proper mail client.
19:32:58 <marja> simonnzg: lol......np
19:33:36 <simonnzg> marja: So... I am to try to put maxci's pages into a sequence?
19:34:08 <marja> simonnzg: ha, I didn't say you must do it....... but if you feel called, I certainly won't stop you
19:34:27 <Kernewes> simonnzg: go for it, we're all volunteering for things tonight
19:34:42 <marja> simonnzg: it is just that I don't know what Ubuntu does, so I don't understand what needs to be done
19:35:23 <marja> simonnzg: but putting it into the correct words in an #action helps us not to forget
19:35:33 <Kernewes> not that ours has to be exactly like Ubuntu's, it might be better if it was a bit different to make it stand out a bit
19:36:24 <simonnzg> marja: Well, I think the problem with Mageia is that there are just too many ways to get at various admin tasks. You can use MCC (I hate it), use the built-in desktop utilities (usually OK, but often broken in some way), use command line (everyone hates it).
19:36:52 <simonnzg> marja: Well, everyone is everyone who doesn't know command line, of course.
19:37:00 <marja> simonnzg: ah, now I start understanding
19:37:38 <marja> simonnzg: well, I think it is not needed to show all possible ways, for every action 1 working way will do
19:37:54 <Kernewes> in the advanced pages we can show the other ways
19:38:00 <simonnzg> marja: The Ubunty-like wikis step users through tasks using the command line and not graphical tools.  The idea being that everyone has a command liner and you con't have to muck around with screenshots that change all the time or look diferent, depending on your desktop environment.
19:38:03 <marja> Kernewes: yep
19:38:26 <simonnzg> Oh, the keyboard isn't fixing my spelling again///
19:38:51 <Kernewes> but a lot of newcomers want to use graphical tools, it's what they're used to
19:38:58 <simonnzg> The idea is that even newcomers can cut-and-paste commands into a box.
19:39:01 <marja> simonnzg: so that would be perfect for advanced users (I'm afraid most beginners will run away if they see the command line)
19:39:11 <marja> simonnzg: ah
19:39:21 <Kernewes> I would have run away from that type of wiki page when I was a newbie
19:39:54 <marja> simonnzg: I'm afraid we even have users who are proud to have used Mdk/Mdv/Mga for 10 years without using the command line at all
19:40:00 <simonnzg> Kernewes: What's easier: trying to use MCC to update or typing "urpmi --auto-update" into a box?
19:40:11 <Kernewes> simonnzg: I like MCC
19:40:32 <marja> simonnzg: typing that is a lot easier and much faster
19:40:39 <Kernewes> simonnzg: we have to cater for all tastes
19:40:42 <simonnzg> Kernewes: Once you know what to type, it's easy. You only need a few commands in the toolbox and life is soooo muche asier. I'm no command line wiz, believe me.
19:40:49 <marja> simonnzg: but there is a group of users who'll never do it
19:41:03 <Kernewes> simonnzg: I can use the command line but I usually choose not to
19:41:11 <Kernewes> simonnzg: just out of personal preference
19:41:31 <simonnzg> marja: Because they're afraid they'll do something wrong. I can't even use a Mac without a command box open...
19:41:34 <marja> Kernewes: I agree with catering for all tastes
19:41:40 <Kernewes> simonnzg: I type all day at the office, it makes a change to do more with the mouse
19:42:05 <marja> simonnzg: not only that, some people are addicted to graphical environments
19:42:10 <Kernewes> simonnzg: it's not only that, some people like the look of a graphical interface bettr
19:42:30 <marja> Kernewes: \o/
19:43:21 <marja> dear team, I have another meeting soon
19:43:42 <Kernewes> I'm hungry and I'm sure JohnR is too
19:43:47 <marja> are you OK with ending theis meeting now?
19:43:55 <Kernewes> yes
19:44:23 * JohnR is noming on the run :-)
19:44:38 <marja> #endmeeting