19:14:07 <obgr_seneca> #startmeeting 19:14:07 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Tue Dec 6 19:14:07 2011 UTC. The chair is obgr_seneca. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:14:07 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:14:17 <obgr_seneca> Good evening ladies and gentlemen 19:14:41 <simonnzg> Good evening Mr. Chairman. 19:14:45 <obgr_seneca> First of all let's ping a few people: 19:15:01 <sebsebseb> Hello 19:15:19 <obgr_seneca> doktor5000: grenoya: JohnR: leuhmanu: Skiper: anybody here for the meeting? 19:15:28 <leuhmanu> hello 19:15:33 <grenoya> obgr_seneca: hi :) 19:15:33 <leuhmanu> yes and no :) 19:15:49 * sebsebseb will be a new member of this team :) 19:15:51 <obgr_seneca> leuhmanu: I take the first half of your answer :D 19:15:56 <marja> lol 19:16:14 <obgr_seneca> #topic team status 19:16:16 <sebsebseb> marja: at me? :D 19:16:25 <obgr_seneca> so, we have a new guy joining doc team 19:16:35 <obgr_seneca> sebsebseb: welcome aboard 19:16:44 <sebsebseb> obgr_seneca: Thanks :) 19:16:49 <marja> sebsebseb: no, at "I take the first half of your answer :D" 19:16:55 <sebsebseb> ok 19:16:59 <obgr_seneca> marja: now about you 19:17:12 <marja> I'm here 19:17:54 <obgr_seneca> As I understood you in one of our last conversations you want to draw back from doc team, at least partly? 19:17:55 <marja> but I feel I can't do much for the new documentation, without having a good idea of what was in it before 19:18:52 <leuhmanu> (/me is not really in the doc team) 19:18:56 <marja> I can't help with the new documentation, if I don't learn the old documentation first... it is too new for me 19:19:09 <sebsebseb> leuhmanu: Oh? 19:19:25 <obgr_seneca> leuhmanu is a spy from qa team 19:19:40 <leuhmanu> spy ? 19:19:41 <marja> I've never known it existed, all I had was an book that came with Mandrake 9 19:19:53 <sebsebseb> obgr_seneca: heh 19:20:07 <marja> so I'm overwhelmed by all the information there is 19:20:20 <obgr_seneca> leuhmanu: ok, not spy, let's say qa team rep? 19:20:20 <marja> I need to let that sink in, before I can help 19:20:33 <obgr_seneca> marja: as I told you, it's ok 19:20:46 <sebsebseb> marja: oh Mandriva documentation never seen any of that or not much 19:20:46 <leuhmanu> obgr_seneca: more bugsquad :) 19:21:11 <marja> sebsebseb: no, I didn't know it was there 19:21:16 <obgr_seneca> leuhmanu: oh yes, I mixed them up 19:21:24 <obgr_seneca> ok 19:21:35 <grenoya> marja: I did not either, but I am not sure it is a problem, because we have another pov 19:21:48 <sebsebseb> there doesn't seem to be much documentation for Mageia at the moment 19:22:07 <obgr_seneca> sebsebseb: actually almost none 19:22:09 <marja> grenoya: what is "pov" 19:22:16 <grenoya> point of view 19:22:36 <grenoya> marja: we both have a 'new eye' 19:22:44 <sebsebseb> Ubuntu has very good help pages for example, altough I think quite a few are a bit outdated now, but still. 19:22:53 * grenoya has very poor english tonight /o\ 19:22:56 <obgr_seneca> we have some old Mdv doc we can use, but it's from 2007 or 2008 because the newer Mdv doc is under another license 19:23:02 <marja> grenoya: my "new eye" sees less then there is to see 19:24:10 <obgr_seneca> marja: It#s ok, if you do less, if you try to leave us, a certain president of the foundation did give me the matches... 19:24:25 <obgr_seneca> ...and we could make a wonderfull big fire to burn you :) 19:24:38 <simonnzg> First job with the documentation is to understand what it is. 19:24:56 <sebsebseb> simonnzg: Indeed 19:24:59 <simonnzg> Next job is to remove what isn't necessary (a lot of it, actually) 19:25:10 <leuhmanu> well anyone can make doc 19:25:29 <leuhmanu> and I have see a lots a one on the english forum tonight 19:25:33 <obgr_seneca> ok 19:25:40 <obgr_seneca> #topic calenco 19:25:43 <simonnzg> The documentation on the Calenco server is, for wnat of a better name, source code used to create documenation in various formats. 19:26:03 <obgr_seneca> simonnzg: exactly 19:26:13 <sebsebseb> obgr_seneca: simonnzg Yeah what is the documentation team? Making the help pages for the distro? Right? 19:26:28 <simonnzg> Not really. 19:26:31 <sebsebseb> for the website and so on? 19:26:31 <obgr_seneca> sebsebseb: we have two jobs 19:26:52 <simonnzg> All documentation, not just help pages. Mind you, most of it IS help pages. 19:27:13 <obgr_seneca> first: create (or adapt) the partly existing installer documentation 19:27:23 <obgr_seneca> second: create documentation in the wiki 19:27:42 <obgr_seneca> and third: (I forgot that) keep the wiki "clean" 19:27:47 <sebsebseb> ok :) 19:28:18 <marja> obgr_seneca: fine... did you talk to Thierry about the help in installer? 19:28:47 <obgr_seneca> To be honest, I didn't find the time to look into the stuff at calenco 19:29:06 <obgr_seneca> did anyboday else? 19:29:20 <marja> a very little bit 19:29:27 <simonnzg> Well, of course. 19:29:45 <obgr_seneca> simonnzg: I name you todays's expert 19:29:56 <marja> I tried something that didn't work.. I wanted to see a printable version 19:30:16 <marja> not the code, but what it would look like 19:31:28 <marja> " 19:31:29 <marja> No publications for the selected file. 19:31:31 <marja> Please ask an administrator to create publications for this file. 19:31:32 <simonnzg> Aha, that's the problem (or the advantage) of XML. It looks like what you wnat it to look like, therefore there's no need to see it like that. 19:31:35 <sebsebseb> I think there should be some documentation for people who want to for example dual boot Mageia so with Grub 0.97 (and distros patches), and Grub 2 so Ubuntu for example, something I been thinking about testing out soon, and then maybe start work on some sort of documentation between the two versions, becasue I know there can be issues between the two versions, and I can see many people wanting to do this kind of thing in the future. 19:31:47 <sebsebseb> and now going back more on topic, what's Calenco? 19:32:26 <simonnzg> Calenco is a sort-of collaborative, web based XML repository. A bit like an XML WKi engine. 19:33:05 <obgr_seneca> sebsebseb: you can always put documentation like that in the wiki 19:33:25 <simonnzg> Imagine a directlry full of XML documents, snippets, paragraphs, plus pictures and other stuff. Calenco allows you to organise this into books and manuals or other documents, reusing things as you go along. Bad description. 19:33:30 <obgr_seneca> Calenco is the software neodoc is using to create documentation 19:34:02 <sebsebseb> obgr_seneca: Yep thought so :) cool :) 19:34:19 <obgr_seneca> They did the mandriva documentation for years and since at least three neodoc people are Mageia members, we can use it for free 19:34:29 <simonnzg> Try www.neodoc.biz it's all there. 19:34:32 <simonnzg> -ish 19:35:22 <simonnzg> That's me in the orange chair on the home page. Not really. But I feel like that sometimes. 19:35:50 <simonnzg> Actually, it may be Oliver. 19:36:41 <obgr_seneca> ok 19:36:53 <obgr_seneca> I had hoped john would be here 19:37:10 <obgr_seneca> to tell us a bit more about working with calenco 19:37:22 <sebsebseb> Which John? 19:37:29 <simonnzg> I'm assuming he's finally getting some sleep. 19:37:59 <simonnzg> I can tell you a little. 19:38:01 <marja> sebsebseb: JohnR, he helped to make the Mandriva documentation 19:38:07 <obgr_seneca> Only because he's on the other side of the world :D 19:38:36 <sebsebseb> thought it was the UK John 19:38:40 <sebsebseb> or well yeah JohnR 19:38:56 <simonnzg> That's how yourun a 24/7 operation. It's cheaper than paying people to do night shift. 19:38:57 <sebsebseb> anyway the sleep thing gave it away that it was probably JohnR :D 19:39:26 <sebsebseb> simonnzg: Maybe he's waking up it's early morning there. 19:39:47 <sebsebseb> simonnzg: heh yeah 19:39:54 <simonnzg> sebsebseb: Maybe. I'm usually at work at 7am! 19:40:36 <marja> Akien: hi :) 19:40:38 <obgr_seneca> simonnzg: so what can you tell us? 19:40:40 <obgr_seneca> hi remi 19:41:11 <Akien> Hi :) 19:41:53 <simonnzg> Well, what do you want to know? I have to say that it's best if you have a look at the same time. 19:42:00 <simonnzg> Can you all log in? 19:42:12 <sebsebseb> to what calenco? 19:42:22 <sebsebseb> Is Calenco open source by the way? 19:42:29 <simonnzg> Only JohnR can create users, so some of you without logins may have to imagine you're logged in. 19:42:46 <simonnzg> Calenco isn't absolutely open, no. 19:42:48 <sebsebseb> simonnzg: yep I won't have an account yet obviously 19:43:08 <simonnzg> sebsebseb: Absolutely. You're not missing much, though. 19:43:43 * obgr_seneca is logged in 19:44:07 <sebsebseb> So Calenco helps make docuntation pages for? the man pages of the software? or the wiki pages? or? 19:44:53 <simonnzg> Not the WiKi 19:44:59 <grenoya> are the screenshot on the neodoc page enought ? 19:45:11 <simonnzg> grenoya: yes. 19:45:36 <grenoya> cool :) I can't do best 19:45:45 <marja> grenoya: simonnzg: I think a lot of screenshots need to be made again for mageia 19:45:59 <sebsebseb> well it says on the page really what it does I guess, but how would Mageia use it? 19:46:13 <marja> to make the new documentation 19:46:20 <simonnzg> I'm still diggin ghtrough the archive we've inherited. It looks like the complete manual. There are collections, like the Mandrake Move manual, sections on using 19:46:45 <sebsebseb> marja: yeah 19:46:55 <simonnzg> gnumeric, diskdrake, all that stuff. VERY detailed. 19:47:41 * marja c&p'd the source of a document to a file, first to a html file, later to xml..... but FF only makes a readable document when it is html 19:47:58 <simonnzg> I'm currently moving the defined manuals into an area called MANUALS. This is the first thing about Calenco: you're not moving anything, just classifying it as something. 19:48:01 * marja is talking about a neodoc page 19:48:54 <simonnzg> XML is sort-of HTML anyway. HTML is a subset of SGML and XML is part of the same family. It's more akin to a typsetting language, though. You can output the XML as all sorts of stuff. 19:48:58 <simonnzg> HTML or PDF 19:49:48 <obgr_seneca> actually xhtml is a subset of html 19:50:08 <simonnzg> The thing about XML is that it's very structured. HTML allows all sorts of floppy things to be input. XML is strict. 19:50:25 <sebsebseb> yep XML is more strict 19:50:26 <simonnzg> XHTML is Extensible HTML - 19:50:32 <sebsebseb> hence XHTML for example 19:50:48 <simonnzg> I always write my web pages in XML. 19:50:54 <sebsebseb> Oh? 19:50:57 <simonnzg> ;-) 19:51:00 <marja> I did know some html4/xhtml... but didn't use it in two years 19:51:02 <sebsebseb> XML not XHTML? 19:51:25 <simonnzg> XML. You can do it. HTML tags are valid XML 19:52:12 <simonnzg> That's really how you have to think about it when looking through the manuals on Calenco. IT's just a bunch of hideously complex web pages written in a language you think you know, but don't entirely understand. 19:52:37 <obgr_seneca> :D 19:52:40 <simonnzg> Unbreaking it isn't too much fun, either. 19:52:57 <sebsebseb> I have done website coding here and there as well :) coded a few sites, spent all the tiem coding that :D HTML and CSS, and converting HTML to XHTML even 19:53:34 <simonnzg> sebsebseb: You'll probably get the hang of XML, then. Very similar. 19:53:55 <sebsebseb> So Calenco uses XML for something, and Calenco users should know XML as a result? 19:54:20 <marja> obgr_seneca: did you find time to ask wobo? 19:54:40 <simonnzg> Now, JohnR is trying to get us to use a particular XML editor called XMLMind. It's WYSIWYG-ish, so it should help those who simply can't apply stylesheets in their heads. 19:54:54 <marja> lol 19:54:55 * obgr_seneca forgot 19:54:56 <sebsebseb> simonnzg: yep sure with good enough reason I could learn XML 19:55:10 <simonnzg> sebsebseb: Yes, Calenco does everything in XML. Not my preference, but... 19:55:15 <marja> obgr_seneca: is OK, you'll get a new chance :) 19:55:44 <obgr_seneca> #action obgr_seneca ask wobo! 19:55:46 <sebsebseb> simonnzg: well I suppouse at east it's a mark up language, not some sort of programming language :D so easier to do stuff with 19:56:06 <simonnzg> XML is markup. Extensible Markup Language! 19:56:21 <sebsebseb> yep exactly :) 19:56:46 <sebsebseb> anyawy at least we don't have to learn Javascript or PHP or something like that for Calenco :D 19:56:59 <simonnzg> sebsebseb: Next time you find JohnR ask him what you need to do to get a login. 19:57:02 <marja> simonnzg: thx for reminding about John's editor, I had forgotten about it 19:57:19 <sebsebseb> simonnzg: yep ok :) 19:58:28 <simonnzg> These editors are wonderful. You look at the markup and then think "I'd like this bit to be <address>" and then you find the editor won't let you do it. Grr. 19:58:49 <simonnzg> Well-formedness. 19:58:49 <marja> http://www.xmlmind.com/xmleditor/download.shtml 19:58:50 <Magbot> [ XMLmind XML Editor: Download Personal Edition ] 19:59:09 <marja> http://www.xmlmind.net/xmleditor/_download/xxe-perso-5_1_0.tar.gz 19:59:26 <simonnzg> Now, the Personal Edition will do everything except allow you to access the Calenco repository via WebDAV. 19:59:41 <Akien> This should be packaged for Mageia :) 19:59:54 <simonnzg> This MIGHT turn out to be a problem. 19:59:56 <marja> Akien: yes, pleas do it :) 20:00:03 <marja> simonnzg: why? 20:00:09 <simonnzg> I don't think we can package it for Mag. It would be nice, though! 20:00:09 <obgr_seneca> #action Akienpackage that editor for Mageia 20:00:37 <obgr_seneca> simonnzg: Why can't we? 20:00:50 <sebsebseb> Akien: looks like you just voluntered to do so :D 20:01:09 <obgr_seneca> #undo 20:01:09 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x8508bec> 20:01:12 <obgr_seneca> #action Akien package that editor for Mageia 20:01:32 <simonnzg> Imagine an editor where it expects to see the whole document, pictures, paragraphs, sections all in one place. Calenco seems to expect to be allowing editors to use WebDAV to see the directory. Without it I don't know what will happen. 20:01:51 <obgr_seneca> hm 20:01:59 <obgr_seneca> We have to ask JohnR about it 20:02:39 <simonnzg> I opened the repository using Oxygen (another XML editor), that supports WebDAV and the result was rather good. I had problems doing the same with XMLMind. 20:03:08 <simonnzg> John's looking into it. Oxygen is another pay for me package. V nice. Too many buttons. 20:04:03 <simonnzg> For instance, I opened the root document for the Move manual and the whole manual arrived in WYSIWYG editable mode complete with pictures. Nice. 20:05:30 <simonnzg> I can explain how to do that in a DAV-enabled editor if you like. 20:05:52 <simonnzg> There MUST be an open XML editor out there. 20:06:15 <obgr_seneca> #action everybody find an open xml editor 20:06:24 <simonnzg> JohnR: Have you woken up yet? 20:06:31 <Akien> #summon JohnR 20:06:50 <obgr_seneca> Akien: I'm afraid he's asleep 20:07:06 <obgr_seneca> It's in the middle of the night in NZ after all 20:07:19 <Akien> #wake JohnR up 20:07:20 <Akien> :p 20:07:21 <simonnzg> 8am. Should be having breakfast. 20:07:55 <obgr_seneca> If he didn't stay up the whole night :D 20:08:05 <simonnzg> Probably hasn't slept all week. 20:08:10 <grenoya> simonnzg: you mean a open WYSIWYG XML editor ? 20:08:45 <simonnzg> grenoya: Well, I suppose so. I wasn't expecting one so I just said XML and left the WYSIWYG out. 20:09:16 * grenoya write HTML directly in vim :) 20:10:01 <marja> grenoya: in vim? 20:10:19 <simonnzg> In Calenco, when you wnat to edit a document, you highlight it and then using the "File" menu, select "DAV Link" - thatserves up a box with a URI in it that you can enter into the File Open dialogue of a suitably WebDAV enabled editor. 20:11:01 <simonnzg> grenoya: I write HTML in VIM. It has all the correct highlighting. 20:11:31 * marja never thought of that, always used kwrite for html 20:11:33 * obgr_seneca writes almost everything in vim... 20:11:56 <simonnzg> Bluefish is good for HTML 20:12:07 <grenoya> marja: I'm using vim for every thing (.bashrc, python, fortran, html, latex...) 20:12:20 <marja> grenoya: wow :) 20:12:45 <simonnzg> I wouldn't know what to do without Vim. 20:12:47 <obgr_seneca> spec files, php,... 20:13:00 <obgr_seneca> but that's not our topic :/ 20:13:38 * Akien hides: using nano seems to be an heresy here. :p 20:13:45 <marja> lol 20:13:53 * obgr_seneca is fetching the matches... 20:14:38 <simonnzg> I think you people need to go and log into Calenco and see what you've let yourselves into. 20:14:51 <simonnzg> It's pretty daunting. 20:14:59 <obgr_seneca> ok, shell we end the meeting? 20:15:05 <simonnzg> Even for those of us that use Vim. 20:15:07 <obgr_seneca> before anyone runs away crying 20:15:31 <simonnzg> Screaming... 20:16:51 <marja> simonnzg: do you need to do that "DAV Link" step for every document, or does a good WebDAV enabled editor make it possible to jump from one document to the other without taking this step again? 20:17:08 <obgr_seneca> #action obgr_seneca write mails to wobo and JohnR 20:17:43 <sebsebseb> simonnzg: I am wondering what I have let myself into by joining this team :D, but well seems I am going to have an excuse to learn XML now, and that I could find quite fun. 20:17:56 <simonnzg> I don't know. I would expect it to be fine once it knows where you are. Then again, XML edirors never do what I expect them to do. 20:18:11 <obgr_seneca> #action marja remind obgr_seneca about contacting those too 20:18:16 <marja> sebsebseb: that's the spirit! 20:18:33 <simonnzg> sebsebseb: Don't forget that the Calenco documentation is not the WiKi. 20:18:44 <marja> obgr_seneca: OK, and what do you want me to do about Thierry? Remind you? 20:18:50 <sebsebseb> marja: well I used to completly hand code some basic websites before, HTML, and CSS, and well maybe convert the HTML to XHTML a little bit. 20:19:05 <marja> sebsebseb: great :D 20:19:19 <sebsebseb> simonnzg: yeah Calenco is for other stuff, not the Mageia wiki 20:19:27 <obgr_seneca> #undo 20:19:27 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x859b2ac> 20:19:37 <obgr_seneca> #action marja remind obgr_seneca about contacting those two (wobo and JohnR) 20:19:45 <sebsebseb> marja: can be fun to do stuff with mark up langauges, with proper reason, for people like me :D 20:19:48 <obgr_seneca> marja: and thierry as well 20:20:11 <marja> obgr_seneca: you didn't put thierry in the action :) 20:21:04 <marja> obgr_seneca: but I don't mind, I'll remind you of contacting all three, if you don't hide too much ;) 20:21:18 <obgr_seneca> I won't 20:21:29 <marja> obgr_seneca: great :) 20:22:48 <obgr_seneca> #action everybody look into calenco a bit more 20:23:16 <obgr_seneca> #action obgr_seneca write a mail to JohnR about getting an account for sebsebseb 20:23:24 <obgr_seneca> ok, anything else 20:23:37 <grenoya> I don't promise anything until I have a true home and internet conection :) 20:23:42 <sebsebseb> So this going to use Calenco thing for this team, is quite new I guess? 20:23:55 <marja> grenoya: of course! 20:24:01 <grenoya> obgr_seneca: I don't have an account either 20:25:31 <obgr_seneca> #undo 20:25:31 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x85ec46c> 20:25:40 <obgr_seneca> #action obgr_seneca write a mail to JohnR about getting an account for sebsebseb and grenoya 20:25:51 <grenoya> thanks :) 20:26:02 <sebsebseb> obgr_seneca: thanks :) 20:26:05 <obgr_seneca> #action grenoya and sebsebseb write a mail to JohnR because of the account 20:26:25 <obgr_seneca> <john@neodoc.biz> 20:27:24 <obgr_seneca> grenoya: sebsebseb: please write him an email yourself 20:27:26 <sebsebseb> obgr_seneca: oh your not going to do it for us? anyway yeah we can find him on IRC or email I guess 20:27:37 <obgr_seneca> I will then tell him who you are, ok? 20:27:55 <grenoya> that's ok for me :) 20:27:57 <sebsebseb> obgr_seneca: he already has an idea who I am I think :D, but yeah :) 20:28:01 <marja> sebsebseb: the e mail address was just given by obgr_seneca 20:28:07 <sebsebseb> marja: yep :) 20:28:31 <marja> :) 20:28:59 <obgr_seneca> ok, the organisatorial stuff is out of the way 20:29:11 <obgr_seneca> shell we end the meeting? 20:29:18 <marja> OK with me 20:29:19 <sebsebseb> ok with me 20:29:43 <sebsebseb> marja: we both typed same thing at the same time :D 20:29:48 <marja> grinz 20:30:07 <sebsebseb> anyway same time next week I guess? 20:30:08 <obgr_seneca> #endmeeting