20:09:08 <ennael> #startmeeting
20:09:08 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Wed Nov 11 20:09:08 2015 UTC.  The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:09:08 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:09:13 <ennael> #chair Akien
20:09:13 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: Akien ennael
20:09:25 <ennael> akien will join in 5 minutes
20:09:36 <ennael> first of all thanks everyone to be there
20:09:44 <ennael> it's been a long time since the last meeting
20:10:14 <ennael> we will take the occasion tonight to check how we can relaunch it so that it can be usefull for everyone
20:10:59 <ennael> #topic various items
20:10:59 <Oro_Valley> sounds good
20:11:08 <ennael> just to start with some news
20:11:23 <ennael> first we will have some new packages and contributions soon
20:11:47 <ennael> Siveo a french company is joining Mageia with neoclust working for them and maybe some others
20:12:08 <ennael> they are working on Mandriva softwares like pulse and mmc
20:12:35 <ennael> which are inventory tool and asset managements, LDAP directory management
20:12:43 <neoclust> "in web"
20:12:47 <ennael> yep
20:12:54 <Akien> re
20:12:59 <ennael> we will have a join communication on that point
20:13:23 <MrsB> This is great news :)
20:13:29 <MrsB> congrats neoclust too
20:13:32 <filipesaraiva> congratulations neoclust =)
20:13:53 <Akien> Great news, and congrats neoclust :)
20:13:54 <ennael> second point is ARM port
20:13:55 <treegazer> felicitations
20:14:05 <ennael> finally it's getting out
20:14:13 * treegazer applauds
20:14:25 <ennael> blino and pterjan are working hard on it and we should have something working very soon
20:14:33 <MrsB> hurrah well done both
20:14:46 <ennael> unless bad things happening, Mageia 6 should comes out with ARM
20:14:55 <Oro_Valley> well some packages are being built already
20:15:04 <Akien> Yeah they did a great job of breaking and then fixing the BS, doing many improvements to pkgsubmit and the build bots on the way :)
20:15:15 <ennael> yep
20:15:15 <neoclust> Oro_Valley: some ? :)  4308/5835 (73.83%) :)
20:15:30 <Oro_Valley> Wow
20:15:31 <ennael> I will ask them to mail some news in coming days to let you know
20:15:56 <filipesaraiva> thanks blino and pterjan =)
20:16:40 <ennael> anything else we should add in this list?
20:17:08 <Oro_Valley> mass rebuild
20:17:31 <ennael> ?
20:17:33 <neoclust> ennael: i will help david_david in fixing and maintaining the java stack
20:17:47 <ennael> yep that's good news
20:17:49 <ennael> thanks for that
20:18:29 <Akien> Oro_Valley: Discussing the mass rebuild is a good idea, we haven't planned it yet. Let's do this in the next topic though (development roadmap)
20:18:47 <ennael> anything else?
20:18:58 <MrsB> preparing for "shapshot 1"
20:19:09 <ennael> ok :)
20:19:18 <ennael> #topic development roadmap
20:19:28 <ennael> so we are *very* late on that point
20:19:36 <DavidWHodgins> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia_6_Development
20:19:42 <ennael> but better than never here is a planning
20:19:42 <DavidWHodgins> Some blanks to be filled in
20:20:03 <ennael> the dates written there are estimations
20:20:28 <MrsB> It leaves around a week +- some before we need to begin building ISOs
20:20:31 <ennael> no rush to release on the exact date but still they are deadline to help people working on final goal
20:20:34 <DavidWHodgins> Also, they are estimations for public release. They have to go to qa first.
20:21:34 <ennael> we used "snapshot" word for releases
20:21:55 <ennael> which means they must be seen as a moment where we put everything together to hunt bugs
20:22:29 <ennael> if you are interested in joining QA during this time to test isos just feel free to ask
20:22:38 <MrsB> Yes, please do
20:22:52 <MrsB> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/QA_ISO_testers
20:23:05 <david_david> java java... when you hold us !! :-D
20:23:14 <ennael> it's not a full time job but even 1 day test can help a lot
20:23:51 <Akien> Basically we will aim internally to for a release during the week that ends on the announced day. So if we're lucky we might get some snapshots early on schedule :D
20:24:01 <Akien> (one can always hope :p)
20:24:10 <ennael> we need to add mass rebuild in this schedule
20:25:08 <Oro_Valley> I think we will see some additional packages not building that are not on the list
20:25:42 <DavidWHodgins> How long does mass rebuild usually take?
20:25:58 <Akien> 3-4 days or so, IIRC
20:26:07 <tarakbumba> Hi. I'm sorry i'm a bit late to join
20:26:24 <Akien> Hi tarakbumba, we're discussing the roadmap: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia_6_Development
20:26:42 <DavidWHodgins> I think right after version freeze would be appropriate for mass rebuild
20:26:45 <neoclust> ennael: don't worry for the broken java stack for the mass rebuild, i will do a "java stack mass rebuild" when fixed
20:27:01 <Akien> I think we could plan a mass rebuild in December
20:27:19 <filipesaraiva> I will talk with some guys that love to test several Linux distributions to test Mageia snapshots.
20:27:29 <ennael> filipesaraiva: thanks
20:27:33 <filipesaraiva> If someone knows this type of person, can be interesting invite them to test snapshots.
20:27:36 <ennael> Akien: mid december ?
20:27:54 <Akien> ennael: Yes, that would give some time to our java experts to work some magic already
20:27:57 <DavidWHodgins> Anyone testing iso images, please join the qa-discuss mailing list.
20:28:19 <filipesaraiva> DavidWHodgins: ok!
20:28:22 <Akien> Let's say the mass rebuild starts on Dec 14th
20:28:29 <ennael> ok
20:28:31 <Akien> It's a monday, nobody does packaging on Mondays :p
20:28:38 <sebsebseb> hi
20:28:38 <DavidWHodgins> :-)
20:29:08 <sebsebseb> ok good first topic it seems, so not done feature voting yet it seems good :)
20:29:47 <ennael> Akien: added on wiki page
20:29:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> filipesaraiva: I know of some folks who might like testing snapshots :)
20:29:53 <Akien> ennael: Thanks
20:30:00 <Akien> I think we're through for this topic?
20:30:01 <Pharaoh_Atem> archers and such who like "livin' on the edge!"
20:30:07 <ennael> yep
20:30:12 <sebsebseb> or is feature proposals now
20:30:19 <Akien> sebsebseb: wait and see :)
20:30:22 <DavidWHodgins> sebsebseb: Still on roadmap
20:30:23 <ennael> #topic review of Mageia 6 specifications
20:30:34 <ennael> so we had some proposals here
20:30:43 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:ProposedFeatureMageia6
20:31:13 <filipesaraiva> Pharaoh_Atem: :D
20:31:24 <ennael> the point tonight is to review them and decide wether or not we should have it for Mageia 6 and which priority
20:32:11 <Akien> Since there are 12 of them, we won't be able to discuss too extensively tonight though: at some point we might have to move discussions to the ML if it takes too long
20:32:21 <ennael> indeed
20:32:47 <Akien> Should we review them in alphabetical order? Probably easier
20:32:54 <DavidWHodgins> Sure
20:32:55 <ennael> yep
20:33:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> :)
20:33:07 <ennael> ARM Port
20:33:13 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:ARM_Port
20:33:25 <ennael> so we introduced it just before
20:33:41 <ennael> looks like it's on a good shape
20:33:43 <david_david> neoclust: I must just found a lot of courage to start update of the Java stack \o/
20:33:50 <ennael> and we have people working on it
20:34:15 <marja11> +1, arm port should be accepted
20:34:24 <Oro_Valley> +1
20:34:26 <tarakbumba> +1
20:34:28 <sebsebseb> yep arm port should be done, that's been worked on for years, would be good to have a proper one
20:34:30 <MrsB> good stuff
20:34:35 <sebsebseb> well occsioanly woorked on for years?
20:34:40 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's interesting to follow, that's for sure
20:34:42 <DavidWHodgins> Yes. I'd be careful about making it too public, until we know it's working well.
20:34:56 <ennael> ok validated then
20:34:58 <filipesaraiva> +1!
20:35:09 <treegazer> +1   question: for the ARM port, what else is needed for testing? Is a QEMU emulation feasible or is it only practical to test on ARM hardware (raspberry PI etc)?
20:35:20 <vladz> +1
20:35:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> most likely we need both
20:35:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> qemu emulation catches "generic" issues
20:35:40 <ennael> I will mail blino and pterjan so that they can sum up about all these points
20:35:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> while arm hardware is necessary to ensure the spaghetti of hw specific stuff is caught
20:35:58 <DavidWHodgins> Hardware recommendations would be good
20:36:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> until armv8, where they have UEFI and standardization and stuff
20:36:20 <ennael> Add DNF as Alternate Repository Manager
20:36:27 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Add_DNF_as_Alternate_Repository_Manager
20:36:43 <sebsebseb> the DNF proposal seems interesting, and to eventually repalce urpmi I guess or possibly
20:37:12 <tarakbumba> If we do not plan to replace urpmi with it why we need that?
20:37:13 <DavidWHodgins> I don't see a problem adding it. It will take time to learn, update other tools that currently call urpmi, and the documentation
20:37:16 <marja11> a lot of work was already done, too
20:37:45 <neoclust> the plan is NOT to replace urpmi
20:37:55 <DavidWHodgins> tarakbumba: It will eventually replace urpmi, as I understand it.
20:37:59 <treegazer> what is the benefit of DNF?
20:38:00 <Akien> tarakbumba: There is indeed no plan to replace urpmi yet. But Pharaoh_Atem seems very willing to work on this feature nevertheless, and is does bring interesting stuff even if we don't use as a replacement for urpmi
20:38:14 <ennael> looks like it's quite well organized and we have somebody implied
20:38:14 <Akien> Maybe Pharaoh_Atem can explain better what his features brings us :)
20:38:17 <MrsB> It replaces Yum, not urpmi
20:38:26 <marja11> neoclust: indeed, that's my understanding, too
20:38:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> DNF is the upstream repository manager being developed as part of the rpm.org project
20:39:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> as such, it is worked on by a number of people to ensure it supports all the latest features from rpm right on day one
20:39:27 <Pharaoh_Atem> for example, the rpm 4.13 rich dependencies worked out of the gate in DNF because the folks in rpm.org got all the pieces in place to make it work
20:39:39 <tarakbumba> Just curious. It is fine for me if we use dnf or whatever; as long as i'm on rpm.
20:39:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> and stuff like reverse dependencies, weak dependencies, etc. work very well
20:40:01 <Pharaoh_Atem> on top of it, DNF is highly extensible, and very fast
20:40:07 <philippem> and still need improvement in Fedora, so nice to have sure, but not soon as a replacement of urpmi
20:40:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> part of the stack also involves a new packagekit backend called Hif which actually works quite well
20:40:35 <DavidWHodgins> What language is it being developed in? Have I mentioned I hate perl :-)
20:40:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> the core libraries that power it (hawkey, libhif, libcomps, librepo) are in C
20:40:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> DNF itself is in Python
20:41:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> it works in Python 2 or Python 3
20:41:35 <Pharaoh_Atem> in Cauldron, it's set up for python 3
20:42:02 <Pharaoh_Atem> the whole thing comes with a full suite of unit tests
20:42:09 <Pharaoh_Atem> and every API that's added comes with tests
20:42:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> which means everything is tested and verifiable from start to finish
20:42:32 <Pharaoh_Atem> the API is well-maintained and DNF follows Semantic Versioning
20:42:49 <Pharaoh_Atem> meaning that API breakage will _only_ occur on new major versions
20:43:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> this gives us a reasonable ability to build applications around it without suffering the pain and agony of APIs disappearing on us
20:43:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> on top of that, it is highly specified and the documentation is very good
20:43:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> the whole stack has unit tests, by the way
20:44:27 <Pharaoh_Atem> the only unfortunate thing is that there's something wrong with iurt that keeps me from running the tests in iurt
20:44:34 <Pharaoh_Atem> they work fine in mock or regular rpmbuild rebuilds
20:44:36 * anaselli is in, but not really present if neede please ping him
20:44:52 <Pharaoh_Atem> but only for DNF core
20:45:02 <Pharaoh_Atem> all the other ones the unit tests work great, even in iurt
20:45:26 <MrsB> There are certainly many positives. Without being aware of any downside to including it, I don't see any reason not to.
20:45:31 <Pharaoh_Atem> philippem: to your point, yes it does need improvements, and it is being improved
20:45:41 <Akien> MrsB: +1
20:45:47 <Pharaoh_Atem> and development is _very_ active
20:45:50 <DavidWHodgins> I gather DNF is an anacronym. What does it stand for?
20:45:53 <Akien> The feature says "Alternate Repository Manager", so I don't see any issue either :)
20:46:01 <filipesaraiva> I think it is a nice thing to have with us.
20:46:08 <ennael> Pharaoh_Atem: while you are there, you seem to be familiar with build tools. Would you be interested in joining force with sysadmins?
20:46:19 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's not really an acronym, but it's "Dandified Yum"
20:46:23 <Pharaoh_Atem> ennael: I don't see why not
20:46:37 <marja11> +1 for accepting the feature
20:46:41 <Pharaoh_Atem> I work with build tools at my day job, so I kinda have to know them well :)
20:46:42 <DavidWHodgins> Agreed
20:46:46 <ennael> there is a huge todo list and I guess it would nice
20:46:49 <vladz> +1
20:46:50 <filipesaraiva> ***if*** in the future we make decision to migrate for it, we can to do it very fast.
20:46:55 <filipesaraiva> +1
20:47:03 <ennael> ok for this feature
20:47:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> filipesaraiva: I even put forth a list of what's required to decide on in that item if we wanted to move to it wholesale
20:47:13 <MrsB> it improves cross distro contribution and external contributions possibly in future
20:47:16 <Pharaoh_Atem> yes
20:47:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> and of course, potentially being a build target in Fedora Copr means we can get more people interested in mageia
20:47:48 <ennael> thanks for that Pharaoh_Atem and welcome in mageia build hell :)
20:47:55 <DavidWHodgins> lol
20:48:05 <Akien> +1 for the feature too, Pharaoh_Atem has already done a tremendous work on it anyway :)
20:48:06 <Pharaoh_Atem> ennael: yeah, I've already experienced quite a bit
20:48:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> iurt hates me
20:48:21 <ennael> iurt likes nobody
20:48:22 <neoclust> Pharaoh_Atem: or you hate iurt :)
20:48:25 <Pharaoh_Atem> haha
20:48:28 * neoclust love iurt
20:48:34 <Pharaoh_Atem> well, hopefully, mock will be working very soon
20:48:43 <Pharaoh_Atem> I've got it working on my local mirror
20:48:56 <ennael> ok
20:48:57 <Pharaoh_Atem> but having it work with the actual repos means I can keep up with the Cauldron churn
20:49:02 <ennael> Btrfs snapshots support for root filesystem
20:49:08 <Pharaoh_Atem> eckk
20:49:10 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Btrfs_snapshots_support_for_root_filesystem
20:49:22 <ennael> another interesting one :)
20:49:26 <Pharaoh_Atem> do we have the latest btrfs stuff?
20:50:00 <Akien> Which was added yesterday... Not like we asked for features to be filed at least 3 times over 3 months :p
20:50:04 <DavidWHodgins> Do we have people to work on it?
20:50:11 <MrsB> The main people implied in this are not here today
20:50:19 <ennael> tmb has activated all the stable one
20:50:24 <ennael> as other distros did
20:50:36 <sebsebseb> Snapshots should work wtih BTFS yep
20:50:40 <sebsebseb> that was one of the main points of it
20:50:45 <ennael> the thing we need is integrate it in our tools
20:50:52 <ennael> like installer and drakx*
20:50:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> ennael: one of the dnf plugins actually helps with this
20:51:03 <Pharaoh_Atem> dnf-plugins-extras-snapper
20:51:07 <Pharaoh_Atem> which I'm working on atm
20:51:19 <Pharaoh_Atem> so there's that at least
20:52:10 <Pharaoh_Atem> it technically wouldn't be difficult to support if we use the snapper tool as our snapshot manager
20:52:19 <Pharaoh_Atem> configuring it and setting it up is probably the way to go
20:52:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> SUSE and Fedora both use snapper for this purpose
20:52:33 <ennael> could you please send a mail to dev
20:52:38 <ennael> to explain all this
20:52:45 <DavidWHodgins> It's getting it integrated into the installer that I'm most worried about. There isn't much time.
20:52:47 <ennael> so that we can have feedbacks on that point
20:52:58 <Pharaoh_Atem> DavidWHodgins: that's the part I don't know about
20:53:00 <ennael> Pharaoh_Atem: ^^
20:53:16 <Pharaoh_Atem> ennael: I think I did earlier in the day?
20:53:27 <MrsB> it's kind of specialised too so we'll need to work on testing procedures from those who know about this stuff
20:53:32 <ennael> oops did not check my mail today
20:53:44 <Pharaoh_Atem> ennael: https://ml.mageia.org/l/arc/dev/2015-11/msg00149.html
20:53:45 <[mbot> [ dev - Developement discussion list - arc_protect ]
20:53:55 <marja11> DavidWHodgins: and who'd do that part?
20:54:19 <DavidWHodgins> Have to learn it first. :-)
20:54:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> I also have a snapper package to submit to Cauldron, but I'm not liking that the software has /usr/lib hardcoded for a couple of things
20:54:59 <MrsB> I don't think we're abe to OK/NOK this one without first consulting those involved.
20:55:18 <marja11> DavidWHodgins: i meant tbe integration.... you won't, you hate perl
20:55:20 <ennael> ok let see on dev
20:55:34 <Pharaoh_Atem> especially since mageia allows full access to 32-bit and 64-bit repos on 64-bit systems
20:55:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> by default
20:55:40 <Akien> Pharaoh_Atem: BTW, could you try to use text-only emails for the dev ML? It's what most of us use and make for a more homogeneous display. If you really want to keep html though, I won't be too manic about it :p
20:55:46 <DavidWHodgins> Ah. Sorry. Thought you were talking about documentation
20:55:48 <ennael> relaunch a dedicated theard about this topic
20:56:44 <Akien> So basically, +1 for the feature, but we need to check who can handle it
20:56:52 <marja11> DavidWHodgins: i'm slow to respond
20:57:28 <ennael> ok next one then
20:57:30 <ennael> Improve installer navigation
20:57:39 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Improve_installer_navigation
20:58:00 <MrsB> vlad :)
20:58:02 <DavidWHodgins> That would be nice, but there are very few people who can work on the installer
20:58:32 <sebsebseb> indeed at that +1 to Dave
20:58:38 <ennael> I guess this needs to have a dev team about  drakx*
20:58:46 <vladz> How many people are there who could do major installer changes?
20:58:47 <MrsB> \o/
20:58:59 <sebsebseb> vladz: probably only about two
20:59:24 <tarakbumba> +1 but not before Mageia 7; do we have enough man power and time for this?
20:59:37 <DavidWHodgins> And having changes to the installer late in the testing cycle is just asking for problems
20:59:51 <vladz> OK!.  What I was proposing was a major redesign of the installer workflow.
21:00:08 <sebsebseb> I agree the installer could be made more user friendly, but not many people have access to the installer and know how to change it
21:00:10 <vladz> From what I see, that excludes Mageia 6
21:00:25 <ennael> I think so
21:00:36 <Akien> We're not yet too late in the testing cycle, but indeed for a major redesign it might be hard until we have a true team with more than 2 experienced devs
21:00:40 <ennael> ut this can be a topic to help starting dev team
21:00:41 <Oro_Valley> +1 mga7
21:00:59 <vladz> The main gripe with installer is that there is no scope for the user to change his/her mind
21:01:09 <sebsebseb> vladz: indeed no back button
21:01:09 <DavidWHodgins> Yes. Postpone to Mageia 7, provided we can get people to work on it well before Mageia 7 starts iso testing
21:01:09 <neoclust> ennael: we should see what we want at speal with thierry
21:01:15 <sebsebseb> yep that would be good to have at least a back button on every screen put into it
21:01:16 <neoclust> ennael: we should see what we want at speak with thierry
21:01:22 <Akien> On the other hand we could start a real brainstorming and mockup work to create design documents
21:01:32 <neoclust> sebsebseb: this is not that easy from what i remember
21:01:35 <ennael> Akien: this can be done indeed
21:01:44 <sebsebseb> neoclust: yeah you do you know how to change the installer?
21:01:45 <Akien> Decide how the installer should *look like* to be ergonomic and easier to use
21:01:47 <MrsB> i think going backward caused lots of grief previously so was removed (years ago)
21:01:59 <vladz> Also, a back button does not make sense if the installer has already done it repartitioning in a way the user did not intend
21:02:16 <Akien> By taking into account the fact that it's hard to redo it completely, so small improvements should be preferred over big overhauls
21:02:19 <sebsebseb> having a back button is pretty standard in most installers now now, be they for Dektop LInux distro's or even mobile phone set up wizards
21:02:29 <neoclust> sebsebseb: Me no but i talked to thierry about this already
21:02:31 <joeghi> ennael: hi
21:02:39 <vladz> Akien: I think that would be the best initiative for now
21:02:39 <ennael> back buttons implies to rethink all installer
21:02:53 <MrsB> It's still good to have something to aim for
21:02:56 <ennael> basically dstros having it collect all informations and then execute it
21:03:12 <ennael> this is not what draks does at the moment
21:03:56 <vladz> ennael: It does. My preference is for something that collects all user preferences, presents them back for approval, then goes ahead and does the whole job without stopping
21:03:58 <sebsebseb> I think evevn Windows has a back button in it's installer :d
21:04:15 <MrsB> it probably needs it :P
21:04:17 <anaselli> sebsebseb: yes back to linux
21:04:34 <filipesaraiva> Hum... what about to change the Mageia installer for another installer, like calamares? (just an idea)
21:05:10 <DavidWHodgins> Let's stick to the proposed features for now
21:05:12 <filipesaraiva> Soon we will discuss the migration to networkmanager...
21:05:12 <sebsebseb> true the whole Mageia installer is a bit out dated now really, Mandriva days,  as for changing it to another one, I can't really comment as such there
21:05:40 <MrsB> it's not outdated, that's just aesthetics sebsebseb
21:06:00 <joeghi> migration to networkmanager???? please don't.
21:06:08 <sebsebseb> MrsB: well the Yugoslavia thing in time zones and location sure is, but other then that it may be ok enough still heh :d
21:06:20 <marja11> i love our installer
21:06:20 <filipesaraiva> The point is, the idea of we have a few number of developers to work on drak* tools is returning again and again for us.
21:06:21 <vladz> The current installer has some very endearing features, especially the partitioner
21:06:35 <treegazer> is there anything actually broken in the current installer? In my experience, it's quite reliable. No doubt it could be improved in some aspects.
21:06:51 * ennael whistles the end of the recreation :)
21:06:58 <Akien> Hehe
21:07:04 <ennael> ok guys let's focus for now on the proposal
21:07:05 <anaselli> filipesaraiva: but that is true anyway
21:07:15 <ennael> what we say is too late to implement for mga6
21:07:20 <filipesaraiva> anaselli: sure
21:07:24 <DavidWHodgins> Yes
21:07:30 <ennael> but people can start working on specifications
21:07:34 <sebsebseb> vladz: it's a nice proposal, but I think you'll have to aim for Mageia 7
21:07:37 <ennael> and proposals for mga7
21:07:39 <Akien> Yes, but a good idea to do some usability brainstorming and a visual mockup
21:07:51 <vladz> Realistically, Mageia 7
21:07:56 <Akien> Work on it could also be started in a branch btw, and not used for mga6, but already started
21:07:57 <sebsebseb> vladz: yep
21:08:00 <anaselli> Akien: agree
21:08:06 <MrsB> agreed yes
21:08:08 <ennael> having precise proposals and mockup will be bbetter than saying drakx is old
21:08:17 <anaselli> it should be done as branch maybe...
21:08:19 <sebsebseb> vladz: as long s you can implement your own proposal enough yourself to :)  then should get in for 7 I guess
21:08:27 <sebsebseb> or get those to heolp with
21:08:44 <DavidWHodgins> Anyone keeping track of what's approved/rejected/delayed?
21:08:59 <vladz> rt sketching something out. I hate perl as well, but maybe it is part of the landscape
21:09:23 <Akien> DavidWHodgins: I'll do it
21:09:29 <anaselli> the main problem is that if we start working late on something we cannot think it will finish in time... so if you want to implement it just start thinking to mga7
21:09:30 <DavidWHodgins> Thanks
21:09:48 <Akien> #info Feature ARM Port: approved
21:10:01 <Akien> #info Feature Add DNF as Alternate Repository Manager: approved
21:10:06 <sebsebseb> will the arm port be able to work oik on Rassbery Pi's :)
21:10:07 <sebsebseb> ?
21:10:25 <Pharaoh_Atem> rpis are hard, but I'm sure we'll try
21:10:34 <sebsebseb> ok awesome :)
21:10:38 <ennael> Migrate To Network Manager
21:10:45 * MrsB hides
21:10:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> might be a point where we could talk to the fedora-arm folks for advice
21:10:49 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:MigrateToNetworkManager
21:11:03 <sebsebseb> apparnatly Ubuntu can on those ok now, except for UNity GNOME AND kde,  would be nice to have some Mageia  avialbe for those :)
21:11:05 <Akien> #info Feature Btrfs snapshots support for root filesystem: approved, but no assigned contributor yet
21:11:44 <sebsebseb> yes I think Mageia should switch to network manager definetly
21:11:45 <DavidWHodgins> Overall, I'm in favour, but I thought there were some situations where drakx tools were better, though I don't remember which ones
21:11:54 <sebsebseb> keeping the old one as an option as the proposal suggests
21:11:56 <Akien> #info Feature Improve installer navigation: rejected for Mageia 6 (too much work and too late), but could be considered later on if some initial work is done on mockups
21:12:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> I can't vote, but I wholeheartedly agree to switch to NM by default
21:12:18 <sebsebseb> Pharaoh_Atem: you can't vote, sure you can, your here :)
21:12:28 <NyB> DavidWHodgins: wi-fi has been hit&miss with NM for me. Less-so with MCC, but that might be that NM is not polished enough on MGA
21:12:29 <Pharaoh_Atem> I thought voting is restricted?
21:12:35 <joeghi> sebsebseb: NM is good for desktop but for server is a PITA to have it around...
21:12:40 <sebsebseb> Pharaoh_Atem: no I think it's open to anyone who's here right now
21:12:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> NM has a server mode (which I use on CentOS 7) that works quite well
21:13:05 * ennael hates NM but that's a personal pov :)
21:13:09 <sebsebseb> joeghi: I don't really know about Mageia and servers, but I assume most people use Mageia as a desktop OS
21:13:16 <DavidWHodgins> lol
21:13:17 <neoclust> ennael: i like net_applet for me
21:13:23 <Oro_Valley> I prefere NM when travelling
21:13:24 * anaselli agreed ennael
21:13:30 <Akien> Basically I'm in favour of the feature as we don't really manage to work on maintaining drakx-net, and NM likely is better maintained.
21:13:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> definitely so
21:13:37 <DavidWHodgins> It's what we're used to
21:13:39 <neoclust> sebsebseb: most != all so we need to make sure it work for ALL
21:13:41 <NyB> sebsebseb: would depend on your definition of what a server is
21:13:41 <sebsebseb> yeah, but most distros havev gone Network Manager upstream De's want it to, as it says in the proposal
21:13:43 <philippem> +1 for NM
21:13:47 * anaselli uses nm only for 3g connections thouhg
21:13:49 <Pharaoh_Atem> +1 for NM
21:13:51 <Akien> Then, drakx-net more or less works for me (even though it's far from perfect) and I don't have experience with NM
21:13:58 <Pharaoh_Atem> Akien: I'll teach you :)
21:14:04 <NyB> +1 for NM simply because having our own thing complicates sthings
21:14:05 <Akien> But if we have contributors to work on it, it's definitely worth a shot.
21:14:08 <anaselli> drax net has to change?
21:14:12 <sebsebseb> yeah the old thing can be there as an optoin for those that want it, need to move with the times.  NM is the way to go :)
21:14:19 <Pharaoh_Atem> draxnet is basically dead
21:14:25 * ankh has many times had to use draknet becaue NM couldnt' connect
21:14:29 <Akien> Ideally support for drakx-net backend could be kept, for users who don't like NM and prefer to stick to the old ways
21:14:36 <NyB> me, I'm mostly using vim /etc/sysconfig/...
21:14:40 <sebsebseb> Akien: indeed and that's what I am suggesting
21:14:44 <anaselli> nm does not work on my wifi
21:14:53 <Akien> (and there are indeed reports of use cases where drakx-net works and NM not, at least AlexL mentioned some from Russian users)
21:14:56 <anaselli> always asks the password nowadays :p
21:14:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> NyB: NM supports automatically reading and importing ifcfg scripts
21:15:04 <joeghi> sebsebseb: they use both, mga is good too for server and have a good server infrastructure even if not LTS of 5 years.
21:15:20 <MrsB> We currently have both, that need not necessarily change. The proposal is to default to NM and alter our tools to it rather than drakx-net
21:15:28 <filipesaraiva> I am using draknet since begin, I like that, but if we have some problem with maintaining of draknet, we can to migrate.
21:15:43 <DavidWHodgins> Just changing the default, I'm in favour of
21:15:43 <Pharaoh_Atem> I suspect that the effort to make NM really polished will be far lower than the effort to bring up drakxnet
21:15:52 <ennael> the big thing is to modify installer for NM
21:16:08 <Pharaoh_Atem> if the installer just writes ifcfg scripts, there's not much that has to be done
21:16:12 <NyB> The problems I've had with draknet were mostly related w.r.t. users doing things without root caps
21:16:25 <ennael> Pharaoh_Atem: integration of NM in installer interface
21:16:26 <DavidWHodgins> So again, perhaps leave for Mageia 7?
21:16:36 <MrsB> Colin wrote alot about it when it on dev ML some time ago - for reference
21:16:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> ennael: like how?
21:16:44 <ennael> we could ask tv first about work to be done?
21:16:50 <sebsebseb> ennael: how hard is it really to modify the insaller for NM?
21:16:51 <ennael> of blino
21:16:56 <ennael> or
21:17:04 <MrsB> coling :)
21:17:05 <DavidWHodgins> sebsebseb: Have you ever looked at the installer code?
21:17:10 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: nope
21:17:12 <Pharaoh_Atem> sebsebseb: it's awful
21:17:13 <ennael> and depending on the answer we go for mga6 or 7
21:17:17 <filipesaraiva> ennael: for me, yes
21:17:25 <DavidWHodgins> ennael: Agreed
21:17:26 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's scary, scary perl
21:17:32 <ennael> please
21:17:34 <sebsebseb> Pharaoh_Atem: yeah it's probably outdated in many ways now really
21:17:43 <philippem> ennael: ok
21:17:51 <ennael> sebsebseb: please speak about code if you know it
21:17:51 <NyB> Pharaoh_Atem: you mean there's PERL that's not scary?
21:17:55 <ennael> that will help :)
21:18:07 <ennael> Akien: can you add info ?
21:18:07 <Pharaoh_Atem> NyB: no, but notice the TWO scary's
21:18:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's double the scary
21:18:16 <NyB> Pharaoh_Atem: :-)
21:18:29 <DavidWHodgins> lol. Let's keep things moving
21:18:42 <MrsB> was that a maybe then?
21:18:47 <NyB> Last time I read perl was when trying to get mcc to not kill my external drives...
21:18:50 <Akien> #info Feature Migrate To Network Manager: pending, depends on estimation by core devs of how much work it entails
21:18:54 <ennael> thanks :)
21:18:55 <DavidWHodgins> MrsB: Yes, depending on feedback
21:18:58 <ennael> Offer Tainted repos during installation
21:19:04 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Offer_Tainted_repos_during_installation
21:19:05 <sebsebseb> ok good NM by default is a maybe at least :)
21:19:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> don't we do the tainted repos thing already?
21:19:16 <DavidWHodgins> Isn't that already done?
21:19:27 <MrsB> not obviously
21:19:28 <DavidWHodgins> Keep in mind the tainted repos must not be on the iso images.
21:19:31 <sebsebseb> this is a great proposal, but I Think it needs to be made clear what people are accepting to
21:19:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> I don't think so
21:19:39 <tarakbumba> +1 for tainted repos. Altough i don't know if it is possible legally
21:19:41 <DavidWHodgins> I'm mixing it up with nonfree probably.
21:19:41 <MrsB> there is a direct question for nonfree but not tainted
21:19:43 <sebsebseb> Ubuntu for examples offers the mp3 codec at least in the installer
21:19:45 <Pharaoh_Atem> -1 for tainted repos
21:19:52 <Akien> Actually right now in the classical installer, we proper to select media to enable if network is configured. By default core and nonfree release/updates are selected
21:19:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> sebsebseb: it's a licensed codec, afaik
21:20:04 <vladz> I think  the proposer's view was to make that decision more direct and user friendly during installation'
21:20:05 <DavidWHodgins> Only if network is available though
21:20:06 <ennael> -1 for tainted repos
21:20:09 <ankh> +1 for tainted repos if it's made clear what's going on
21:20:11 <sebsebseb> an option can be three, for tainted repos like that proposal suggests, but need to have something proper that the user accepts
21:20:16 <Oro_Valley> -1 for taint4d repos if legally not cleared
21:20:19 <Akien> tainted is available to select, but that's only if network is available and only if you know what they mean
21:20:27 <Akien> OK one second
21:20:28 <filipesaraiva> It is a copyright problem for some countries, right?
21:20:31 <Pharaoh_Atem> even offering tainted repos on the disc images could be a huge problem
21:20:39 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's a patent and copyright problem
21:20:49 <MrsB> It's already available.
21:20:51 <sebsebseb> and the tained repos really should be the repo's
21:20:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> mirrors in the US would have to drop the images
21:20:54 <sebsebseb> only can install if onine
21:20:57 <ankh> -1 to tainted software on the discs yes, +1 to offering to add them for the net
21:20:58 <sebsebseb> things from that
21:21:00 <Akien> The legal argument about tainted repos is _wrong_. We propose tainted in our official repos, there is no reason not to propose to "activate" those repos if the user wants to.
21:21:01 <MrsB> It's just not presented in any meanigful way
21:21:06 <NyB> Would it still be a problem if no actual software is on the ISOs?
21:21:08 <Akien> There won't be tainted packages on the DVDs.
21:21:28 <Pharaoh_Atem> Akien: I don't know man, this discussion was done a billion times with Fedora
21:21:31 <Pharaoh_Atem> it didn't end well
21:21:41 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's really not a good idea
21:21:41 <Akien> So there is _NO DIFFERENCE_ between just proposing tainted in MCC or mentioning it too in the installer
21:21:46 <sebsebseb> I want to have various codecs, installer says something about the legal stuff, there's an accept button, and it's clear that it will only download if online,  and then yep fine and done :)
21:22:04 <Akien> Would a judge say "it's fine to have it opt-in in MCC, but bad to have it opt-in in the installer"? Come on
21:22:05 <NyB> sebsebseb: it might be more than that
21:22:07 <Pharaoh_Atem> and France is *not* a nice country about these things
21:22:32 <Pharaoh_Atem> especially since a lot of the media patent holders are based there
21:22:34 <DavidWHodgins> I have no problem with the option to enable online tainted repos in installer.
21:22:36 <Akien> I repeat: this is not a proposal to activate tainted by default or to include tainted packages on the repo
21:22:39 <MrsB> Nobody here is legally trained and this is all speculation until advice has been taken
21:22:42 <NyB> sebsebseb: we might need to have the installer collect all legalese from all software that it's trying to install
21:23:00 <Akien> It's a usability enhancement to make it CLEARER what tainted is and that it has to be activated if people just want to go on Youtube and watch videos
21:23:10 <sebsebseb> NyB: yes there needs to be some lisence type stuff, if you press accept on this, you have agreed to this.... ok you agree fine, and your onilne, ok here you go here's your codecs
21:23:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> you don't need tainted for YouTube
21:23:44 <NyB> Pharaoh_Atem: but you do still need Flash for an inordinate amount of other sites
21:23:45 <Oro_Valley> right
21:23:54 <sebsebseb> Pharaoh_Atem: yeah Youtube has gone mostly webm I think
21:23:58 <DavidWHodgins> NyB: flash is nonfree, not tainted
21:23:58 <Pharaoh_Atem> pretty much
21:24:05 <Akien> Ok, looks like nobody read the feature proposal or corresponding discussions, decide what you want :)
21:24:13 <sebsebseb> the proposal si for both I thinik tained and non free really
21:24:33 <DavidWHodgins> sebsebseb: No. Nonfree is already  on the iso images
21:24:39 <MrsB> This tackles bugs such as https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=17131
21:24:41 <[mbot> [ Bug 17131 No sound in html5 video in iceape, fullscreen not usable ]
21:24:52 <Pharaoh_Atem> iceape is compiled without support for stuff
21:24:55 <sebsebseb> thing is so can easilly have video and so on working once Magiea is installed, hence that proposal
21:24:58 <sebsebseb> main thing
21:25:30 <tarakbumba> Proposal is to offer adding tainted repos not including them in isos
21:25:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> this sounds more like we need a codec helper tool (like what GNOME Software/Apper/Muon do)
21:25:42 <Oro_Valley> no tainted from installer please
21:25:52 <sebsebseb> tarakbumba: to have the installer pointing to an option for tainted codecs yes
21:26:02 <MrsB> Tainted can already be installed from the installer
21:26:09 <sebsebseb> and tained codecs that still havev to be downloaded from the net, won't be on any ISO's
21:26:18 <ennael> so what the point here ? if we have it already?
21:26:46 <MrsB> A direct question, with explanation and warning
21:26:53 <sebsebseb> yep
21:26:55 <sebsebseb> at mrsb
21:26:55 <Oro_Valley> so take it of and include a note
21:26:56 <Akien> MrsB: +1
21:27:02 <Akien> Oro_Valley: IT'S ALREADY IN
21:27:08 <vladz> +1
21:27:23 <MrsB> it's always been possible to choose which online medias to use during installation
21:27:44 <DavidWHodgins> It's just not directly asked
21:27:47 <sebsebseb> well that's not that clear I Think then,  hence the proposal?
21:27:56 <MrsB> the proposal is simply to present a quetsion in the installer, similar to the "do you want to use Nonfree" one
21:28:03 <sebsebseb> yep that's what it is
21:28:18 <DavidWHodgins> I'm in favour
21:28:23 <sebsebseb> so am I
21:28:33 <MrsB> If Yes then add online medias and include them during installation
21:28:45 <Oro_Valley> why not ask for legal advise
21:28:48 <sebsebseb> do you want to enable the tained repos' for codecs such as for video etc,  a message should say something, and yep done
21:29:06 <MrsB> We absolutely need to seek legal advice, yes
21:29:07 <DavidWHodgins> Oro_Valley: The option is already there. It's just not obvious
21:29:22 <filipesaraiva> MrsB: +1 for legal advice.
21:29:26 <sebsebseb> put something in about the legal side to I think, we don't have this enabled by default since... but if you press this you can eanble it and have....
21:29:32 <Oro_Valley> if it is there tehn we may hvae to take it off
21:29:51 <DavidWHodgins> Perhaps we should say "Approved, pending legal advice"
21:29:51 <MrsB> I's not there, it's in the repositories
21:30:52 <Akien> Ok let's skip this subject, I'll try to summarize the proposal on the ML as it seems half of us don't understand
21:30:55 <ennael> ok so to sum up: add some explanations in installer when we can add taiunted repository as already proposed
21:31:00 <DavidWHodgins> The ability to add online repos, including tainted is there now, just not explictly asked
21:31:02 <ennael> so make it clearer
21:31:05 <filipesaraiva> Distribute non-free software is different of distribute software with copyright/patent problems in some countries. Because if, the comparision between non-free repo and tainted repo presented in the proposal is strange, for me.
21:31:30 <ennael> Packages_Used_Register
21:31:33 <filipesaraiva> So, I really would like to see some legal advice about it.
21:31:36 <sebsebseb> the proposal is about having an option with a message that points to the online tained repo's to download codecs if  the box or whatever is ticked let's say
21:31:38 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Packages_Used_Register
21:31:51 <sebsebseb> and there are no tained codecs on the ISO's as far as I know
21:32:10 <DavidWHodgins> Ok as long as it's opt-in only, for me.
21:32:18 <sebsebseb> yep opt in only that's what they proposed
21:32:30 <neoclust> ennael: was drakstat no ?
21:32:41 <Akien> #info Feature Offer Tainted repos during installation: pending, needs a better explanation in Simple English
21:32:42 <tarakbumba> I' m strongly against to https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Packages_Used_Register
21:32:54 <Pharaoh_Atem> for me, I'd only +1 it on an opt-in basis
21:32:59 <ennael> neoclust: maybe not that lear
21:33:01 <ennael> clear
21:33:10 <ennael> we have to be very carefull with this
21:33:11 <sebsebseb> as for the register proposal that's a interesring one to,  and the bit about how some people may thinik peopole are spying was good in that one,  but yes some anoymous stats about  what packages are downloaded the most from repo's,  and that, why not?
21:33:14 <Akien> I'm for an opt-in feature that would do that. Typically a dialog during the installer that asks if the user wants to send this (and only this) kind of anonymous data
21:33:22 <Pharaoh_Atem> that said, it wasn't very useful when other distros (Fedora, Ubuntu, etc.) did it
21:33:29 <Akien> As for the implementation, we should probably check how Debian does it for example
21:33:30 <ennael> especially in the current context of private life discussions
21:33:44 <ennael> Akien: they have a question during installation
21:33:50 <ennael> "want to take part?"
21:34:01 <ennael> if so it's instaled and configured
21:34:03 <DavidWHodgins> That's why opt-in only. Also, must not affect urpmi directly (performance)
21:34:04 <Akien> Yes that's very common, and if it's opt-in, I don't see any issue.
21:34:17 <Oro_Valley> +1
21:34:24 <NyB> uh, just skimmed over the proposal, but why isn't the number of downloads for packages and (even more) their updates relevant?
21:34:39 <NyB> s/relevant/sufficient?
21:34:50 <DavidWHodgins> NyB: We don't have access to that info from the mirrors
21:34:52 <Akien> NyB: That's exactly the info we want to have
21:35:01 <NyB> ah, right...
21:35:03 <MrsB> As long as it is purely a counter, no IP recorded etc then, as purely opt-in, it's ok in principle
21:35:14 <sebsebseb> it would be good to have some anoymous package download stats from the repo's,  if that's needed or not, well no probably not really.  a bit like it would be a good idea to have more of an idea how many people download Mageia ISO's
21:35:18 <sebsebseb> but that not needed to
21:35:46 <sebsebseb> an opt in tell us what packages you have installed in Mageia option, would be ok
21:36:12 <sebsebseb> with nothing, but download numbers
21:36:15 <MrsB> could possibly be added to mageia-welcome
21:36:20 <tarakbumba> I think we should expect very negative revie
21:36:32 <sebsebseb> MrsB: yep indeed
21:36:39 <tarakbumba> I think we should expect very negative reviews if we apply this.
21:36:42 <Akien> tarakbumba: Why, when we're one of the only distros who don't propose it?
21:36:50 <DavidWHodgins> tarakbumba: As long as it's opt-in only (not opt-out), I don't think so.
21:36:57 <NyB> tarakbumba: depends on the implementation. I have not minded the "this is _exactly_ the mail we will send" ones
21:37:08 <Akien> tarakbumba: Does VLC get bad reviews because it asks if you want to send anonymous data?
21:37:24 <NyB> tarakbumba: because you can view _exactly_ the sent information
21:37:30 <MrsB> it's certainly contencious though. We'd have to be very careful in the implementation.
21:37:32 <tarakbumba> We' re a distro not just an application like vlc
21:37:46 <sebsebseb> opt in stats should be ok :)
21:37:46 <ennael> tarakbumba: even debian does it
21:37:56 <sebsebseb> main thing is to not try and force things like that with an opt out
21:38:01 <Akien> http://popcon.debian.org/
21:38:02 <[mbot> [ Debian Popularity Contest ]
21:38:24 <sebsebseb> and the stats should be anoymous no ip address etc as mrbs put
21:38:27 <Akien> e.g. https://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=supertux
21:38:28 <[mbot> [ Popularity Contest Statistics -- Debian Quality Assurance ]
21:39:15 <DavidWHodgins> Keep in mind it would need server side development too, to collect/report the stats.
21:39:20 <proyvind> switch to mirrorbrain
21:39:22 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: yep of course
21:39:33 <sebsebseb> proyvind: hej
21:39:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> mirrorbrain might actually provide this info for us like mirrormanager2 does for fedora
21:39:38 <proyvind> then you can check most popular packages from mirrorbrain
21:39:53 <sebsebseb> I don't know what mirrorbrain is
21:40:00 <NyB> sebsebseb: it's a redirector
21:40:07 <proyvind> metalink redirector
21:40:08 <sebsebseb> oh ok
21:40:09 <Pharaoh_Atem> mirrorbrain is a swiss army knife of mirror management systems
21:40:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> using metalinks and other techniques
21:40:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> things that don't support metalinks can use http redirects to the correct mirrors, while things that do can use them to query and identify mirrors
21:40:49 <proyvind> as urpmi creates metalinks locally for aria2 to use
21:40:51 <NyB> it could also reduce the problems with out of date mirros
21:41:09 <proyvind> mirrorbrain creates the metalink in stead
21:41:19 <Pharaoh_Atem> DNF uses metalinks for mirrors too
21:41:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> though it can use baseurls and simple redirects too
21:42:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> we may not need to be super invasive
21:42:12 <Pharaoh_Atem> just moving to mirrorbrain may give us the info we need
21:42:18 <proyvind> yupp
21:42:40 <Pharaoh_Atem> the deployment of a metalink system is needed for DNF to use mirrors properly anyway
21:42:44 <ennael> ok I guess this one should be sent to dev ML to finalize decision
21:42:53 <neoclust> ennael: and to sysadmin
21:42:59 <Akien> Ok, so basically the feature is ok if opt-in, and might be no longer relevant if we actually simply use a better mirror management
21:43:00 <ennael> yep
21:43:02 <proyvind> Pharaoh_Atem: I made this argument like 7-8 years ago as one of benefits of adopting mirrorbrain
21:43:03 <neoclust> ennael: as this impact our infra
21:43:27 <NyB> I think I prefer this to some sort of reporter service. All it would take in Mageia itself is adding some legalese in the installer and updater to the effect of downloads being anonymously logged
21:43:42 <DavidWHodgins> I think we need more details on the proposal before voting on it.
21:43:51 <ennael> so mail to be sent
21:43:58 <sebsebseb> on how it could be implemented yeah
21:44:02 <sebsebseb> then can vote on it properly
21:44:10 <ennael> next one
21:44:14 <ennael> Parental and time controls
21:44:16 <proyvind> mirrorbrain is the best solution, while it would also provide you with a far better mirror management..
21:44:20 <Akien> #info Feature Packages_Used_Register: pending, would be ok if opt-in, but using mirrorbrain or mirrormanager2 might be a better solution overall
21:44:20 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Parental_and_time_controls
21:44:39 <sebsebseb> I think the parental and time one should be accepted, also I played around a bit with the parentol controls in the control centre in Mandriva 2010.0/1/2
21:45:02 <Akien> That's a nice little feature request, shouldn't require too much development effort
21:45:07 <DavidWHodgins> Who will implement it?
21:45:19 <Akien> (at least not as much as changing the installer)
21:45:36 <Akien> I think it would be a good project for an infant drakx* dev team
21:45:49 <sebsebseb> Akien: yeah I guess so
21:46:26 <DavidWHodgins> That's something we could aim to include in Mageia 6, but possibly delay, if needed.
21:46:29 <Akien> The feature request in itself is consensual I think, so we just need the devs
21:46:35 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: yep
21:46:36 <proyvind> I have almost completed proper mirrorbrain support in our urpmi branch..
21:46:39 <Akien> But if it's not ready for mga6, it can go in an update anywa
21:46:40 <DavidWHodgins> Akien: Yep
21:46:45 <NyB> Hmm, is it just the networking part that's missing?
21:46:51 <ennael> ok so accepted
21:46:54 <NyB> blocking specific users?
21:47:04 <Akien> #info Parental and time controls: accepted
21:47:08 <MrsB> Apart from anything else this would be good PR
21:47:16 <DavidWHodgins> NyB: Blocking specific users with different times applied
21:47:21 <sebsebseb> MrsB: that we have good parentol controsl buit in, indeed :)
21:47:21 <ennael> Simplified installation
21:47:30 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Simplified_installation
21:48:06 <sebsebseb> I think that's a  interesting idea, but realistically it means creating a new ISO and all that, so I don't see it happening
21:48:13 <Pharaoh_Atem> just no...
21:48:17 <sebsebseb> any time soon if at all really
21:48:19 <filipesaraiva> It is a simplified installation on Windows.
21:48:23 <Pharaoh_Atem> this is more nightmares
21:48:31 <Akien> That's not realistical. Even Windows asks you for your locale and keyboard layout
21:48:34 <ennael> windows install is much more complicated than linux
21:48:36 <Akien> We can't just skip everything
21:48:38 <DavidWHodgins> Should be combined with the Improve installer navigation feature
21:48:40 <ennael> indeed
21:48:47 <sebsebseb> oh yeah it was a Wubi like installer
21:48:49 <Akien> Actually you can install Mageia just fine by pressing next all along
21:48:49 <Pharaoh_Atem> Wubi was a bad idea
21:48:52 <sebsebseb> like what Ubuntu used to have
21:48:56 <sebsebseb> Wubi is dead
21:48:57 <Akien> All default settings are good.
21:49:02 <sebsebseb> Ubuntu/Canonical dropped it quite a while back now
21:49:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> yeah, because it kept breaking
21:49:19 <sebsebseb> apparnatly it won't really work with UEFI systems to I think, the old Wubi
21:49:19 <Akien> We could add a disclaimer on all pages "if you don't know what this is about, accept the default setting" if need be.
21:49:43 <Pharaoh_Atem> and really, something like this practically means we have to reimplement Wubi, which *no one* will want to do
21:49:44 <sebsebseb> yes creating a new installer is uhmmm to much work, it's bad enough having our actsaul installer maintained properly, and implemented with new features
21:49:58 <filipesaraiva> -1
21:50:01 <Pharaoh_Atem> and it would mean modifying drakinstall A LOT
21:50:04 <Pharaoh_Atem> so...
21:50:05 <Pharaoh_Atem> -1
21:50:15 <ennael> ok so proposal refused?
21:50:21 <sebsebseb> yep rejected that one,  altough a sort of nice idea, but realstically it's not to hard to do etc
21:50:22 <Akien> Yes
21:50:22 <DavidWHodgins> -1 here too
21:50:27 <ennael> ok
21:50:40 <sebsebseb> realistically it's too hard to do above
21:50:41 <ennael> Urpmi redirects if local mirror unavailable
21:50:45 <MrsB> It's really difficult to automate installation to that kind of level and not break things. It could have the opoosite effect than intended when that happens, and it is bound to happen unfortunately, however well it's tested.
21:50:47 <sebsebseb> that one should be accepted
21:50:48 <Akien> Doesn't mean we can't think about how to make the installer more noob-proof, but that's more part of the other topic about the installer
21:50:49 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Urpmi_redirects_if_local_mirror_unavailable
21:50:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> ennael: that's a mirrorbrain thing
21:50:52 <sebsebseb> if a mirror drops would be great if it can go to another
21:51:04 <tarakbumba> Goodnight everyone. I need to go; it' is 23:50 here. Bye
21:51:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> tarakbumba: bye
21:51:11 <Akien> And we also want users that install Linux to be ready to learn how a computer works a bit :)
21:51:11 <MrsB> nite tarakbumba
21:51:18 <Akien> Night tarakbumba :)
21:51:28 <sebsebseb> Akien: indeed
21:51:36 <Akien> We can't make the installer noob-proof and expect them to be able to use "urpmq -i packagename" :)
21:51:50 <MrsB> We're on the next one now :)
21:51:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> ennael: DNF does this automatically, but I suppose urpmi should probably grow *something*
21:51:53 <Akien> (ok bad example as they don't need it, but still :p)
21:52:02 <Akien> MrsB: Right, sorry
21:52:21 <Pharaoh_Atem> or at least a re-query to the metalink
21:52:26 <Pharaoh_Atem> which would suggest a new mirror
21:52:26 <sebsebseb> yes the mirror one should be accepted for sure :)
21:52:31 <Akien> #info Feature Simplified installation: rejected, that's just not doable. Other distros have attempted that and it was a complete failure.
21:52:38 <MrsB> I like this suggestion
21:52:48 <DavidWHodgins> If we are planning to eventually switch to DNF, I don't see much point in making major changes to urpmi, so I'm against the feature.
21:52:50 <sebsebseb> Akien: wrll Wubi did work for quite a few people actsaully, so not a complete feailure
21:52:55 <Pharaoh_Atem> DavidWHodgins: that's a good point
21:53:04 <sebsebseb> Akien: but there were also some wubi issues that were uh
21:53:12 <Pharaoh_Atem> DNF already does this, and the effort would essentially be wasted
21:53:33 <Pharaoh_Atem> and you'd be subjecting tv to urpmi code more than he should ever be
21:53:33 <Akien> DavidWHodgins: Well we're not planning to switch _yet_
21:53:58 <sebsebseb> the mirror one should be accepted it makes sense, if a mirror drops hwen installing stuff, awesome great, if it can go to another just like that or ask which one to use to continue donwloading stuff :)
21:54:10 <MrsB> IINM urpmi current tries the same mirror 3 times before failing, not sure it would take that much extra 'stuff' to move to a new mirror.
21:54:12 <DavidWHodgins> If dnf works well in Mageia 6, I think switching for Mageia 7 should be considered.
21:54:27 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: indeed
21:54:33 <DavidWHodgins> sebsebseb: Again, who's going to implement it?
21:54:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> MrsB: if we use mirrorbrain, it'll transparently switch anyway
21:54:46 <Pharaoh_Atem> urpmi code touching is not required then
21:54:49 <MrsB> not from a local mirror
21:54:59 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: heh well not me for the mirror one, but one of our actsaul packagers/devs I guess :)
21:55:01 <Pharaoh_Atem> urpmi would no longer be aware of mirrors
21:55:14 <MrsB> if a specific mirror is specified then $MIRRORLIST isn't used
21:55:15 <Pharaoh_Atem> it would just have a URL that redirects automatically by mirrorbrain
21:55:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> MrsB: then there's still no point
21:55:50 <NyB> MrsB: the only common reason for a user to select a specific mirror would be to choose one close to them
21:55:52 <Akien> I think the fallback could be $MIRRORLIST actually, for people who select a specific mirror
21:56:00 <proyvind> Pharaoh_Atem: it's required
21:56:00 <MrsB> yes
21:56:08 <NyB> for 99% of cases mirrorbrains geo-ip would do that on its own
21:56:26 <Pharaoh_Atem> exactly
21:56:31 <proyvind> Pharaoh_Atem: because metadata in place might not be the same on various mirrors
21:56:32 <DavidWHodgins> I'm against the feature, as I think it would be a waste of effort
21:56:50 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: I am for the feature, since it makes things more user friendly :)
21:56:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> for similar reasons, I'm against it to
21:56:53 <Pharaoh_Atem> -1
21:56:58 <MrsB> If the specific mirror fails there is nothing currently to redirect it to a different mirror
21:56:59 <NyB> DavidWHodgins: I can't comment, since I have no idea on the effort required
21:57:00 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: that's annoying when trying to install packages, and then it's like, sorry I can't install these now
21:57:05 <proyvind> that's why you'll find symlinks to synthesis in media_info on mirrors
21:57:11 <Akien> Well there is no "waste of effort" in Mageia
21:57:29 <Akien> If a dev is interested in the feature, he can implement it. If no one thinks it is worth coding, then it won't be coded.
21:57:33 <Akien> That's quite simple.
21:57:39 <sebsebseb> Akien: indeed
21:57:43 <DavidWHodgins> If urpmi changes would not be needed once dnf or mirrorbrain is in use, I think it is a waste.
21:57:44 <Pharaoh_Atem> that's true
21:57:50 <Akien> So rejecting a feature based on "it requires work and is maybe not the 1st priority" is not a good argument IMO.
21:57:56 <proyvind> to ensure that they're current, which becomes extremely important since adopting use of aria2, as it will try download from several sources at once
21:57:59 <Pharaoh_Atem> Akien: mirrorbrain may provide the functionality regardless
21:58:11 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: DNF  is just a test thing for Mageia 6, it's not going to replace urpmi
21:58:21 <DavidWHodgins> sebsebseb: I know that
21:58:23 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: so got a whole release still using urpmi by default Mageia 6, and possibly another to etc
21:58:29 <sebsebseb> so  the mirror proposal is a good idea
21:58:52 <proyvind> I can probably help you guys on this if you're willing to accept my help
21:59:05 <Akien> I also don't think we should reject features based on "it's not worth working on urpmi since we'll likely switch to dnf in 2 years"
21:59:13 <DavidWHodgins> I like the idea, just think it's better to focus on dnf/mirrorbrain, instead of modifying urpmi
21:59:16 <sebsebseb> Akien: indeed at that +1
21:59:18 <Akien> Because at this rate it's not worth working on Mageia since we'll switch to Fedora in 4 years :)
21:59:33 <proyvind> Ḯ have experience with mirrorbrain and almost finished implementing the support in question required for urpmi
21:59:51 <Akien> But yeah, basically it's like the other feature that might be obsoleted by a better mirror management system
21:59:55 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: average users won't be using  that DNF  or mirrorbrain stuff,  or most of them,  they will use urpmi or rmpdrake though
22:00:01 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: they use what's default when it comes to stuff like that
22:00:03 <sebsebseb> average ones
22:00:08 <Akien> So let's investigate that first before deciding if we should try to find someone to spend time on urpmi :)
22:00:12 <MrsB> We'll need to consult the doers again for this one I think.
22:00:29 <proyvind> so yeah, if anyone would like my help on this, feel free to ask for help
22:00:33 <filipesaraiva> Akien: +1
22:00:41 <sebsebseb> DavidWHodgins: and average users would want packages that just install, and work :)  so mirror proposal is a good idea :)
22:01:23 <DavidWHodgins> Let's hold off voting then, till we get feedback from the implementers on if they are ok with it timewise.
22:01:24 <Pharaoh_Atem> proyvind: your help is appreciated
22:01:32 <Pharaoh_Atem> for getting mirrorbrain and such going
22:01:36 <proyvind> Akien: I kinda volunteered, or at least helping anyone who'd like to take responsibility for it
22:01:38 <Akien> #info Feature Urpmi redirects if local mirror unavailable: pending, nothing against it a priori, but it depends whether some devs want to actually implement that + mirrorbrain might solve this automagically.
22:01:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> goodness knows I don't know
22:01:43 <Akien> proyvind: Duly noted, thanks :)
22:01:58 <ennael> Use mdadm for raid devices
22:02:04 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Use_mdadm_for_raid_devices
22:02:16 <MrsB> I think this is intended anyway
22:02:35 <MrsB> time will be the limiting factor i suppose
22:02:38 <proyvind> huh? don't you already do that?
22:02:46 <proyvind> oh
22:02:47 <proyvind> for fakeraid
22:03:19 <NyB> dmraid is bitrotting in general AFAICT...
22:03:26 <DavidWHodgins> I'll stay out of this one. I use lvm mirroring, so have very little experience with raid
22:03:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> I generally use lvm, but I've used mdadm too
22:03:50 <sebsebseb> yeah I don't use raid as well, so staying out of this one
22:03:53 <proyvind> many such fakeraid solutions will give you issues with boot etc. if someone's enabled fakeraid in fakeraid bios and it's not being used..
22:03:53 <NyB> I use LVM over mdraid
22:04:03 <ennael> ok so rather waiting for tmb free time
22:04:09 <MrsB> yes i think so
22:04:13 <ennael> accepted then
22:04:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> mdadm is nice and works, but what _is_ even required for this to be fixed?
22:04:20 <MrsB> best ask him tho :)
22:04:38 <vladz> It took a lot of effort to get this going with dmraid so let it run for a while. Is there any urgency to change?
22:04:41 <Akien> IIRC during mga5 development he said he wanted to add mdadm support, but just did not have enough time
22:04:43 <ennael> pterjan: available for a quick sum up of your work on arm port?
22:04:51 <NyB> Pharaoh_Atem: hmm, dunno, never used fakeraid myself...
22:05:09 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm LVM most of the time
22:05:11 <Pharaoh_Atem> it's much easier
22:05:16 <proyvind> so using mdadm with fakeraid might require user to disable any fakeraid configuration set in their controller rom
22:05:56 <NyB> LVM for raid5/6 has not been as stable, for mirroring it's fine...
22:05:56 <proyvind> so you should be cautionate about refusing use of dmraid f
22:06:05 <proyvind> or when fakeraid is enabled on controller..
22:06:06 <anaselli> thi smeeting starts to be too  loooong we need to do more meetings and avoid this situation... :/
22:06:36 <ennael> anaselli: not that long
22:06:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> NyB: really? I've not had a problem with raid6 on lvm2
22:07:08 <anaselli> ennael: maybe it's me that is tired :)
22:07:24 <Akien> anaselli: I agree, but since we don't manage to organise many meetings, we need to review all features at once. Hopefully there aren't too many of them :)
22:07:31 <DavidWHodgins> Shall we move on?
22:07:43 <NyB> Pharaoh_Atem: my tests were rather limited, tbh
22:08:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> NyB: I run oVirt on lvm raid 6 system, it's quite nice
22:08:01 <ennael> last one
22:08:02 <ennael> UiAbstraction4mcc
22:08:06 <Pharaoh_Atem> ugh
22:08:07 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:UiAbstraction4mcc
22:08:13 <sebsebseb> yes that should be accepted
22:08:17 <anaselli> ennael: back to the future?
22:08:18 <anaselli> :D
22:08:33 <sebsebseb> that control centre one it seems should be accepted
22:08:34 <Akien> #info Feature Use mdadm for raid devices: accepted, but to be checked with tmb's plans
22:08:38 <anaselli> ehm i didn't expect that one...
22:08:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> does it need to stay in perl?
22:08:50 <DavidWHodgins> The packages have been in Mageia for a year. It's getting mcc changed that's a bottleneck
22:08:57 <MrsB> mostly completed isn't it?
22:09:02 <Pharaoh_Atem> wait, it's already done?
22:09:04 <NyB> +10 for this one
22:09:05 <pterjan> ennael: I built a lot of things, blino did the hard ones :)
22:09:26 <pterjan> ennael: we have 75% of cauldron builf for armv5tl but for example no kernel :)
22:09:30 <anaselli> wait what are we talking about now?
22:09:31 <anaselli> :(
22:09:54 <ennael> anaselli: just taking the opportunity to have pterjan around for news about arm port
22:09:56 * pterjan replies to some old question :P
22:10:18 <anaselli> ok
22:10:26 <Pharaoh_Atem> if the UI abstraction stuff for MCC is already done, then why not?
22:10:31 <Pharaoh_Atem> +1
22:10:46 <sebsebseb> yep looks good from the images on the proposal
22:10:47 <anaselli> Pharaoh_Atem: wait we are talking about arm now
22:10:51 <DavidWHodgins> The ui packages are there. It's the changes to mcc that have to be done
22:10:52 <sebsebseb> looks like should be accepted going by images
22:11:07 <anaselli> sebsebseb: the images are not proposed
22:11:14 <anaselli> are working
22:11:16 <sebsebseb> images are a mock up
22:11:23 <sebsebseb> not the real thing  I gathred
22:11:32 <anaselli> they are released in mga5
22:11:48 <MrsB> ongoing project
22:11:51 <anaselli> mockup or not ar there
22:12:33 <DavidWHodgins> The libyui packages are there. The changes to mcc to use them has not been started
22:12:35 <NyB> ah, YUI... thought the look & feel was familiar :-)
22:13:03 <Pharaoh_Atem> DavidWHodgins: I'm not too familiar with this, do you think this would be too bad to do?
22:13:03 <anaselli> DavidWHodgins: well mcc is not writte in yui
22:13:09 <DavidWHodgins> I'd say postpone to Mageia 7, and combine with the workflow changes
22:13:13 <MrsB> adminpanel isn't it
22:13:20 <anaselli> but we have a launcher that must be fixed
22:13:30 <anaselli> AL13N: also start working on disk manager
22:13:31 <Akien> I think this feature is a really cool idea, but it needs to look at least as good as the current GTK+ MCC if we want it to become the new MCC
22:13:36 <anaselli> started
22:13:46 <DavidWHodgins> Pharaoh_Atem: Anything that affects mcc (perl) is a pain
22:13:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> oh dear
22:13:54 <MrsB> agree with your summary Akien
22:13:55 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm reversing my vote
22:13:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> -1
22:14:19 <anaselli> So we avoid a thing that we have
22:14:28 <anaselli> just because no one helps
22:14:33 <anaselli> to make it better
22:14:33 <DavidWHodgins> I like the idea, just don't think we can have it ready for Mageia 6.
22:14:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> likewise
22:14:51 <Pharaoh_Atem> if there was effort going on earlier (which I've seen no evidence of), then perhaps
22:14:54 <DavidWHodgins> Hence I vote to postpone to Mageia 7
22:14:55 <anaselli> certainly it cannot be
22:15:06 <Akien> Well postponing doesn't make any sense.
22:15:10 <Akien> It's an ongoing effort.
22:15:14 <MrsB> what is needed at this stage anaselli?
22:15:15 <filipesaraiva> I like this proposal.
22:15:20 <Akien> The real question is: do people care about it, or does anaselli lose his time?
22:15:31 <DavidWHodgins> We can't have major changes starting just before iso building starts.
22:15:44 <anaselli> help in graphic design and some programmer that fix drakx mess
22:15:49 <ennael> DavidWHodgins: we can we are only on alpha stages
22:16:01 <filipesaraiva> The point is just postpone the proposal will not finnish the work to be done.
22:16:04 <anaselli> DavidWHodgins: manatools as they call now
22:16:13 <anaselli> already work as separate tools
22:16:15 <Pharaoh_Atem> anaselli: the problem is, there's realistically only two people in the entire project that can even work on it
22:16:24 <anaselli> so there is no problem in having both
22:16:36 <Pharaoh_Atem> and both of them have to do other things too
22:16:40 <anaselli> Pharaoh_Atem: that is a problem yes
22:16:53 <anaselli> but how many on our drakx tools really?
22:17:07 <Pharaoh_Atem> realistically? one
22:17:09 <proyvind> hm
22:17:11 <MrsB> Well new drakx team will help with that
22:17:21 <proyvind> I might be able to help out
22:17:23 <anaselli> so Pharaoh_Atem we need to avoid that too...
22:17:30 <DavidWHodgins> That will take time to build though
22:17:41 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm all for an ongoing effort
22:17:48 <anaselli> AL13N: also works a bit on it
22:17:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> but we cannot make promises that we can't realistically keep
22:18:02 <proyvind> I've done quite a lot of maintenance and development of our drakx
22:18:07 <anaselli> as usual i'll go on
22:18:18 <anaselli> if people help well it's great
22:18:19 <proyvind> and libyui stuff is something I want to integrate..
22:18:27 <proyvind> but cannot make any promises
22:18:27 <ennael> as a side not, this tool can be great but the look and feel is just not doable
22:18:40 <Pharaoh_Atem> proyvind: no one expects promises, as we're all volunteers
22:18:42 <Pharaoh_Atem> :)
22:18:44 <ennael> the project needs to include some effort on that side
22:18:55 <Pharaoh_Atem> ennael: skinning libyui is not simple :(
22:19:03 <anaselli> a graphical design yes ennael
22:19:09 <ennael> Pharaoh_Atem: it has to
22:19:15 <NyB> Pharaoh_Atem: is it even possible?
22:19:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> it is
22:19:38 <anaselli> but you cannot expext great things since the libyui has to provide widget for all the graphical enviroment
22:19:38 <Pharaoh_Atem> yui currently defaults to GTK/Qt theme, but it can be provided a stylesheet
22:20:02 <ennael> anaselli: one of the biggest bad reviews is about look and feel in mageia
22:20:06 <Pharaoh_Atem> I believe SUSE actually uses this to have a semi-consistent look and feel of YaST in various environments
22:20:10 <ennael> because it's getting old
22:20:24 <anaselli> Pharaoh_Atem: it does
22:20:27 <ennael> and the current state of these tools will not help
22:20:37 <Pharaoh_Atem> to be frank, our nicest environment is GNOME, one we don't even do much with
22:20:42 <anaselli> but use ruby and has something different in addition on libyui
22:20:53 <anaselli> yui-gtk is probably not used
22:20:57 <sebsebseb> Pharaoh_Atem: you mean lookswise :) and yes GNOME is my prefered DE :)
22:20:59 <ennael> Pharaoh_Atem: this is your opinion
22:21:06 <Pharaoh_Atem> yes it is
22:21:07 <anaselli> i hate gnome :p
22:21:14 <Pharaoh_Atem> I love plasma 5 though
22:21:19 <ennael> Pharaoh_Atem: then you wil have to look for a maintainer
22:21:20 <sebsebseb> anaselli: your on the KDE team though I think
22:21:23 <Pharaoh_Atem> I hope we can have a nice theme to complement breeze
22:21:44 <ennael> this will be a big question to keep GNOME a environment in mageia
22:21:56 <MrsB> In QA we love them all equally.
22:22:00 <anaselli> let's say i'd like the idea to have less gtk stuff on my side
22:22:10 <anaselli> and to have tools working on console
22:22:18 <Pharaoh_Atem> ennael: when I said we don't do much with, it's because we just don't customize it much
22:22:23 <sebsebseb> Pharaoh_Atem: a lot of Mageia people don't really like GNOEM much, but ah well
22:22:23 <anaselli> we don't have now but manatools
22:22:25 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm not says it's not maintained well
22:22:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> *not saying
22:22:32 <sebsebseb> Pharaoh_Atem: if they like it or not,  GNOME and KDE are still the two main DE's
22:22:35 <ennael> Pharaoh_Atem: well I say it :)
22:22:49 <Pharaoh_Atem> fwiw, my preferred DE is KDE 5
22:23:07 <ennael> Pharaoh_Atem: olav told us he is ok to maintain new versions but cannot personnalize much or debug
22:23:13 <ennael> that's why we need volunteers
22:23:23 <Pharaoh_Atem> yeah, I know
22:23:35 <Pharaoh_Atem> I'm spreading the word about mageia too :)
22:23:39 <sebsebseb> yes GNOME could do with some more volunteers to maintain in  stable releases of Mageia, that's true
22:23:43 <ennael> thanks :)
22:23:55 <ennael> this is really critical in last step of the release
22:24:11 <MrsB> So this feature is ongoing, suggest look-n-feel as priorities
22:24:17 <ennael> yep
22:24:24 <Pharaoh_Atem> I think we shouldn't promise it in mga6
22:24:30 <Pharaoh_Atem> but definitely it's a feature worth doing
22:24:42 <MrsB> that's fair, yes
22:24:42 <ennael> I guess for now if you compare mcc and this tool there is apparently not enough progress
22:24:54 <ennael> it needs to be designed
22:25:00 <Pharaoh_Atem> we need manatools anyway if we want to drop gtk2 from the install
22:25:05 <anaselli> ennael: yes i just ported them :p
22:25:17 <Pharaoh_Atem> and for wayland happiness
22:25:18 <ennael> ok so
22:25:39 <ennael> ok for this feature but as a long term feature for mga7
22:25:46 <DavidWHodgins> Ok here
22:25:48 <sebsebseb> Wayland hmm I guess that's Mageia 7 probably :d
22:25:50 <filipesaraiva> +1
22:25:50 <Pharaoh_Atem> good
22:26:08 <Pharaoh_Atem> sebsebseb: wayland readiness would be in line with F24 / mga6
22:26:20 <Pharaoh_Atem> but our tools would run as xwayland clients today
22:26:25 <ennael> #info UiAbstraction4mcc will be a long term feature for mga7, including some look'n feel improvments
22:26:28 <sebsebseb> Pharaoh_Atem: I don't think thre's a plan to port Mageia 6 over to wayland?
22:26:40 <sebsebseb> Pharaoh_Atem: I mean to repalce xorg compelty when I say that
22:26:43 <sebsebseb> as the default
22:26:56 <Pharaoh_Atem> no one proposed it
22:27:00 <anaselli> sebsebseb: i think fedora when we will call fedora we probably have it :p
22:27:02 <Pharaoh_Atem> so it's not likely to happen
22:27:03 <ennael> ok so that's all for the list
22:27:05 <DavidWHodgins> One more news item. IIRC, it was in a council meeting that it was decided the cd iso images will be dropped.
22:27:08 <sebsebseb> good aim for 7 maybe, depending on what other distro's do,  and how well GNOME and KDE realy work with it etc
22:27:18 <ennael> I guess we can stop the meeting now
22:27:28 <DavidWHodgins> Yep
22:27:29 <ennael> is that ok?
22:27:29 <sebsebseb> ennael: yep I think so
22:27:40 <ennael> many thanks for being there
22:27:47 <sebsebseb> anaselli: yep once Fedora has it we follow
22:27:48 <Pharaoh_Atem> DavidWHodgins: CD ISOs?
22:27:55 <ennael> and keep up the good work!
22:28:05 <ennael> #endmeeting