19:59:19 <malo> #startmeeting
19:59:19 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Tue Jul 15 19:59:19 2014 UTC.  The chair is malo. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:59:19 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:59:33 <tarakbumba> Hi. Sorry i'm late for meeting. I hope i don't miss a lot.
19:59:39 <malo> we were just waiting for you
19:59:47 <tarakbumba> :)
20:00:07 <malo> Ok, let's get on with the agenda.
20:00:48 <malo> Before that, it seems my emails arrive on the list with a 24h delay, sorry for the double announcement :-P
20:01:34 <malo> #topic Mageia 5 features
20:01:49 <malo> Ok guys, let's talk about how the features are progressing
20:02:06 <malo> anaselli: can you start and tell us about your progress?
20:02:28 <malo> (even though it's a more long term feature)
20:02:57 <anaselli> Well malo let's say I'm currently working on rpm stuff porting to libyui
20:03:28 <anaselli> we have logviewer, user management, service management, host management already ins
20:03:31 <anaselli> in
20:03:43 <anaselli> all must be tested of course
20:04:17 <anaselli> even if I'm confident that we should not have big problems, but anyway it's not just a matter of cut&paste
20:04:22 <malo> anaselli: is there an easy way to test it?
20:04:36 <tarakbumba> anaselli: do we have rpm packages for testing in updates_testing  repo, or early alpha?
20:04:43 <anaselli> well tools are very similar to ours
20:04:52 <anaselli> so we need to use them :)
20:05:16 <anaselli> tarakbumba: i was about to tell it :) thanks for the question
20:05:21 <malo> anaselli: maybe you could add instructions on how to install your version on https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:UiAbstraction4mcc
20:05:45 <anaselli> I'd like to produce someting as soon as possible, i have done a rpm just for a demo atm
20:06:18 <anaselli> malo: it should be in :)
20:06:20 <anaselli> http://gitweb.mageia.org/software/adminpanel/tree/README
20:06:21 <[mbot> [ adminpanel - Next Generation Mageia Administration Panel ]
20:07:03 <anaselli> but as said i will produce an alpha soon, id like to finish edit-urpm-sources first
20:07:08 <tarakbumba> anaselli: i agree with malo. Also, it would be nice have a document that gives clues for which tools are ready for testing, what problems should be expected
20:07:42 <anaselli> tarakbumba: atm all the tools can live with the old tools
20:07:57 <anaselli> since i had no contributions i also had to change names
20:07:58 <malo> anaselli: maybe create a section « How to test » in the wiki page. Otherwise no on will look at the first documentation link.
20:08:05 <anaselli> just to avoid any rgressions
20:08:27 <malo> anaselli: cool.
20:08:33 <anaselli> malo: i would like to do a lot of things... but it's only me
20:08:48 <anaselli> and matteo (pasmatt) that is not in atm
20:08:49 <tarakbumba> may be something like this: http://wiki.mate-desktop.org/status:gtk3
20:09:08 <anaselli> tarakbumba: volunteer? :p
20:09:52 <tarakbumba> I can do that but i do not know where to start? And unfortunately i'll be absent for a month :(
20:10:16 <anaselli> tarakbumba: starting is always the first step ;)
20:10:35 <anaselli> if you want to, just contact me when i'm available in this channel
20:10:48 <doktor5000> malo: germany is also lurking in the shadows due to hangover :)
20:10:53 <malo> Ok, next features.
20:11:00 <malo> doktor5000: indeed :-)
20:11:08 <tarakbumba> By september, if rpms are ready to test i can give a hand to prepare documentation on wiki about status
20:11:19 <anaselli> doktor5000: germany is just doing party for the soccer cup
20:11:34 <malo> doktor5000: Germany scored 5 goals  in the last 26 minutes of the last meeting
20:11:50 <malo> anyway
20:11:57 <malo> Colin is not here
20:11:59 <tarakbumba> doktor5000: Germany was awesome...
20:12:00 <anaselli> tarakbumba: ok, just ping me
20:12:10 <malo> neoclust: around?
20:12:46 <malo> any kde team member?
20:13:09 <tarakbumba> Starting with this? https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:Btfrs_as_default
20:13:14 <anaselli> malo: i forgot proxy and clock are in as well
20:13:32 <malo> tarakbumba: ennael is not here
20:13:46 <tarakbumba> oh, i missed that...
20:14:13 <malo> since ennael neoclust coling are not around, it's hard to discuss feature progress ...
20:15:24 <tarakbumba> We should discuss that feature when ennael and coling are present.
20:15:35 <malo> Ok, I'll email -dev to ask for progress reports on these features
20:15:55 <malo> #info malo will email -dev about progress report for features
20:16:12 <malo> #topic Other topics
20:16:14 <tarakbumba> I won't be here next meeting but this should be reminded them: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12362
20:16:16 <[mbot> [ Bug 12362 Installer doesn't warn btrfs root partition and grub fails after installation ]
20:16:19 <neoclust> malo: yes
20:16:32 <malo> ah
20:16:43 <malo> neoclust: we were discussing feature progress
20:16:55 <neoclust> malo: ah ok
20:16:58 <neoclust> if i can help
20:17:05 <malo> neoclust: anything to report on https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:ChangeKDEDM
20:17:20 <tarakbumba> That both effect the feature and our bootloader. We should drop Legacy grub in favor of Grub (2) f we want to use btrfs for boot partition.
20:17:46 <neoclust> malo: not yet, i will look this after KF5 completly updated
20:18:09 <malo> neoclust: ok. Thanks
20:18:19 <tarakbumba> neoclust: which dm in your mind? Lightdm would do that i think.
20:18:25 <malo> neoclust: and https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:PhononVlcAsDefault ? Luc's progress
20:19:40 <neoclust> malo: lack tests for phonon-vlc
20:19:42 <neoclust> it needs QA
20:19:47 <neoclust> tarakbumba: nothing in mind yet
20:20:06 <malo> neoclust: maybe an email on -dev asking people to switch would help
20:21:25 <tarakbumba> neoclust: i see.
20:22:24 <malo> #info malo will mail -dev asking for testers for https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:PhononVlcAsDefault
20:22:34 <malo> neoclust: thanks
20:22:35 <doktor5000> malo: maybe Feature:PhononVlcAsDefault shouldn't actually be a feature as it will also be upstream default and it delivers better quality since years ...
20:23:19 <doktor5000> malo: that's work we can save and use elsewhere IMHO
20:23:38 <Luigi12_work> phonon-gstreamer is quite broken since mga3, phonon-vlc works fine
20:24:02 <malo> doktor5000: easy feature then, not requiring much work :-P
20:24:27 <malo> Ok. Are we done with features?
20:25:56 <malo> #topic Any other topic?
20:26:01 <doktor5000> malo: neoclust: yep we should simply drop gstreamer stuff IMHO
20:27:06 <malo> There was recently a call by Luigi12 to drop ruby-rails
20:27:16 <malo> Any thoughts on that?
20:28:13 <sander85> not using it and don't care about it.. like probably most of us, so no objections :)
20:29:08 <leuhmanu> pterjan updated them recently no ?
20:29:54 <malo> leuhmanu: wasn't he working on ruby itself
20:30:03 <malo> leuhmanu: and ruby gens
20:30:05 <malo> gems
20:30:38 <leuhmanu> http://svnweb.mageia.org/packages?view=revision&revision=642587
20:30:39 <malo> ok, we need pterjan
20:30:51 <doktor5000> malo: +1 for dropping those gems, nobody seems to use or maintain them, I and QA team wasted days on those ... :/
20:31:16 <leuhmanu> (but yes shika is no more here, so..)
20:31:26 <malo> doktor5000: Please respond to David's thread on -dev
20:31:52 <anaselli> malo: i don't use ror but certainly not having it means loosing potential developers
20:32:11 <neoclust> malo: ok
20:32:13 <anaselli> and if no one cares, means we have lost them already...
20:33:06 <malo> anaselli: probaably developers install rails from upstream
20:33:22 <doktor5000> anaselli: as nobody seemed to care for quite a lot of packages which were simply not working, we already lost quite a lot - so better drop stuff quicker
20:33:31 <doktor5000> malo: probably via rvm
20:33:33 <anaselli> maybe, but malo i prefer looking and official repos when i install a distro
20:33:34 <leuhmanu> pterjan is in fvor too:
20:33:34 <leuhmanu> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13339
20:33:37 <[mbot> [ Bug 13339 ruby-actionpack new security issue CVE-2014-0130 ]
20:33:43 <leuhmanu> comment 14
20:34:22 <anaselli> doktor5000: or better change the communication... we probably don't reach people
20:34:24 <malo> #info please comment on David's thread on -dev about ruby-rails drop
20:34:34 <anaselli> we are just keeping the ones we had
20:34:45 <anaselli> but that is just my opinon ofcourse :)
20:34:56 <malo> Note that Luigi12 uses a yahoo email, address so his mails can be in your spam forlder
20:35:45 <marja> malo: it is worse, for many the mails bounce before they can reach the spam folder
20:36:38 <malo> marja: true, although I have received David's email
20:37:03 <marja> malo: so who didn't receive them: check the archive on ml.mageia.org, or sign up for news.gmane.org
20:38:21 <Luigi12_work> dropping it doesn't mean we'll lose any developers, it doesn't work as it is
20:38:21 <malo> marja: thanks.
20:38:22 <anaselli> what should we suppose to answer?
20:38:27 <Luigi12_work> and actually it could have the opposite effect
20:38:36 <Luigi12_work> if someone actually gives a crap about it, maybe they'll step up to do something about it
20:38:47 <Luigi12_work> by holding on to this broken crap, we only give a false sense of security anyway
20:39:01 <Luigi12_work> and pterjan already said he was OK with dropping it
20:39:06 <Luigi12_work> he only updated it because nobody else did
20:39:12 <malo> Luigi12_work: ok :-)
20:40:02 <malo> So I think people are generally in favor of dropping it. Any objection should be voiced soon.
20:40:23 <Luigi12_work> another question is whether or not it should go in task-obsolete
20:41:03 <Luigi12_work> if it does, and someone packages it on their own, it'll get ripped off their system, but for people that update from a previous mga release, maybe it's a good idea to remove that obsolete insecure broken crap, so I'm torn
20:42:18 <doktor5000> malo: Luigi12_work: maybe this would be something for a blog post - Mageia drops unmaintained ruby stack, potential maintainers step up!
20:42:36 <malo> pterjan: we're discussing dropping of ruby-rails
20:42:52 <malo> pterjan: there seems to be a general agreement
20:43:38 <doktor5000> malo: ruby, rails, gems - drop them all until somebody cries and revives/maintains them IMHO
20:43:54 <malo> doktor5000: ruby is harder to drop
20:43:55 <pterjan> no.
20:44:01 <pterjan> I use and maintain tuby
20:44:06 <pterjan> ruby
20:44:12 <malo> doktor5000: many packages depend on ruby
20:44:32 <pterjan> I hate rails and have never used it :)
20:44:38 <philippem> only rails should be dropped
20:44:52 <anaselli> ROR not ruby :p
20:45:23 <malo> pterjan: any opinion on adding rails to task-obsolete for mga5?
20:45:28 <doktor5000> pterjan: no offense but I can't tell them apart rails, gems, whatever - ruby alone for scripting is okay :)
20:46:25 <malo> Luigi12_work: adding to obsolete might make the upgrade for user servers harder
20:46:42 <Luigi12_work> how?
20:46:52 <pterjan> I think it's fine
20:47:13 <malo> doktor5000: gems, like any package specific packaging system, does not interact well with our own
20:47:29 <Luigi12_work> I guess we can add it to task-obsolete and if it seems problematic we can remove it later
20:47:38 <malo> Ok.
20:47:43 <malo> Any objection?
20:49:33 <malo> Ok. Let's wait a week or two for people to protest on the list, and then we drop it.
20:49:46 <Luigi12_work> yep that's fine
20:49:59 <malo> #info we drop rails within two weeks (objections to be raised on the ml)
20:50:07 <Luigi12_work> maybe by then I could put together the list of the 1000 other things we should drop
20:50:16 <malo> #topic Any other other topic
20:50:18 <malo> ?
20:50:20 <Luigi12_work> (conservative estimate)
20:50:31 <malo> Luigi12_work: It might be useful
20:50:38 <Luigi12_work> wasn't there supposed to be a topic about kernel/etc maintenance?
20:53:23 <malo> Luigi12_work: yes, but ennael is not here, nor colin
20:53:36 <malo> pterjan will help
20:53:53 <marja> \o/
20:54:03 <malo> pterjan: right? :-P
20:54:10 <anaselli> Luigi12_work: have we missed tmb?
20:54:29 <marja> anaselli: he is ill and not available for 2 months
20:54:49 <pterjan> malo: I'll try :)
20:55:05 <anaselli> marja: sorry for him, but happy because he is still with us :)
20:55:14 <malo> pterjan: many thanks
20:55:22 <marja> anaselli: yeah, he loves Mageia :-)
20:56:13 <Luigi12_work> yes we do miss tmb
20:56:34 <Luigi12_work> he'd be preparing another round of kernel updates for mga3/mga4 right now if he weren't ill, as well as for glibc I think
20:56:43 <Luigi12_work> there's also the Cauldron kernel to deal with
20:56:47 <malo> yes, and we wish him to rest and get better
20:56:51 <tarakbumba> i hope he'll recover more than we expected before. Sorry to hear that he's ill.
20:56:51 <Luigi12_work> indeed
20:57:32 <Luigi12_work> updating the mga kernel is complicated.  The kernel package itself isn't too bad, but all the other stuff you have to rebuild/update when updating the kernel is the issue.
20:58:23 <doktor5000> malo: Luigi12_work: maybe it would be good to have some basic documentation how to maintain such packages
20:58:51 <doktor5000> I've tried to do that for hplip: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/User:Doktor5000#Recommended_procedure_to_update_hplip
20:59:56 <Luigi12_work> yes, this is much needed
21:00:44 <malo> I'm sure pterjan knows all about the procedures
21:00:47 <doktor5000> like the KDE team did with their build order, so others could at least _try_ to do it in case of absence
21:01:23 <malo> ok. Let's conclude
21:01:32 <malo> #topic Anything else?
21:02:36 <malo> 5
21:03:09 <marja> if you don't say 4
21:03:13 <malo> 4
21:03:25 <malo> (got distracted
21:03:26 <malo> )
21:03:28 <malo> 3
21:03:29 <marja> then: what about the long list of candidate apprentices?
21:03:39 <malo> marja: right.
21:03:46 <malo> #topic Apprentices
21:04:04 <malo> There is a long list of apprentice candidates on the wiki.
21:04:14 <malo> please volunteer to mentor them!
21:04:37 <malo> #info malo will send a mail about apprentices on -dev
21:04:46 <malo> marja: thanks for the reminder
21:04:52 <marja> yw :-)
21:04:57 <malo> 2
21:05:27 <malo> 1
21:05:35 <malo> Thanks all
21:05:39 <malo> #endmeeting