20:37:01 <ennael> #startmeeting
20:37:01 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Tue Feb 18 20:37:01 2014 UTC.  The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:37:01 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
20:37:18 <ennael> thanks all for attending this meeting
20:37:56 <ennael> #chair malo tmb
20:37:56 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: ennael malo tmb
20:38:18 <ennael> do we have any other topics that are not in the list?
20:39:16 <sander85> seems not..
20:39:23 <ennael> ok already sleeping :)
20:39:37 <ennael> #topic plans for the installer and drakxtools
20:39:58 <ennael> ok that first topic comes from the general assembly we had during FOSDEM
20:40:18 <ennael> one of our strong point in Mageia is installer and administration tools
20:40:49 <ennael> on the other hand it's one of the weakest one
20:41:11 <sander85> UI probably needs some tweaking :/
20:41:16 <ennael> meaning only 2 or 3 guys who can eventually work on it, lack of documentation
20:41:21 <sander85> or should i say GUI
20:41:28 <proyvind> ahoi
20:41:32 <proyvind> regarding DrakX
20:41:33 <ennael> yep getting old indeed
20:41:41 <ennael> proyvind: please we are in a meeting
20:42:00 <ennael> so we cannot go on as we did in previous releases
20:42:01 <proyvind> I've actually rebased stuff on top of yours, with all my patches applied on top of it again, ie. same repo
20:42:12 <proyvind> ehr
20:42:15 <proyvind> same git whatever
20:42:20 <ennael> tv made an incredible work during previous releases
20:42:34 <proyvind> what I mean is, if there's interest in collaborating
20:42:40 <ennael> but this is still very hard to manage
20:42:57 <Luigi12_work> I don't know how tv does all that he does, it's amazing
20:42:58 <anaselli> ennael: unfortunately i agree
20:42:58 <proyvind> I've been tracking mageia work for all packages, merging most and done a whole lot of workmyself
20:43:12 <ennael> so we spoke quite a lot during asssembly about that topic
20:43:27 <ennael> and pterjan, coling, blino agreed to help on that
20:43:43 <ennael> meaning work together to create a real dev project
20:43:58 <ennael> and help eventually new comers who would like to work on it
20:44:01 <Luigi12_work> I wonder if there's anything else we can do to get more people interested in contributing to Mageia, it's a difficult question
20:44:02 <proyvind> so basically what I'm getting at is reaching out a helping hand to offer some assistance/help/collaboration or whatever :)
20:44:22 <ennael> Luigi12_work: we do have people interested in drakx*
20:44:38 <ennael> the thing is it's quite hard to start with, hack the code and improve it
20:44:38 <Luigi12_work> ahh, good.  So I guess it's about lowering the barriers to entry now
20:44:43 <ennael> indeed
20:44:44 <Luigi12_work> yes
20:44:44 <proyvind> provided any contributions are welcome..
20:44:53 <Luigi12_work> I've tried to fix bugs in it and gotten lost in the code
20:44:59 <ennael> :)
20:45:11 <ennael> so the point is to make drakx* a real dev project
20:45:31 <ennael> with bug tracking, releases, specs...
20:45:38 <ennael> and mentoring
20:45:58 <ennael> as an upstream project
20:46:09 <sander85> that sounds good :)
20:46:19 * proyvind is in full support of
20:46:39 <ennael> on the "cosmetic" plan, drakx* are lost in the middle of all mageia code and wiki
20:46:42 <tarakbumba> that's good... :)
20:46:59 <leuhmanu> (it's like mirror soft or identity, in perl too, no real person behind)
20:47:26 <ennael> so the first thing even if it looks a bit superficial would be to create an entry point on the web
20:47:49 <ennael> as any other upstream project
20:48:15 <grenoya> ennael: you mean hosted outside of mageia servers?
20:48:17 <ennael> then mageia could also communicate on a technical side or marketing side using that entry point
20:48:17 <sebsebseb> hi
20:48:24 <ennael> grenoya: not really
20:48:43 <ennael> just have something we could use to speak and work on it
20:48:57 <ennael> let say for example (it's an example) drakx.mageia.org
20:49:22 <grenoya> ok
20:49:27 <ennael> don't know if I'm clear enough :)
20:49:35 <grenoya> for me yes :)
20:49:49 * ennael may have kill some people :)
20:49:54 <grenoya> :))
20:50:14 <ennael> getting older gives you some very stupid ideas :)
20:50:30 <pterjan> and what about code review site? /o\
20:50:35 <ennael> yep
20:50:42 <ennael> that would help also
20:50:58 <ennael> I think neoclust spoke about it some months ago
20:51:20 <Akien> ennael: We're listening :)
20:51:40 <anaselli> ennael: drakx does not need only a marketing, who knows mandriva and then mageia knows drakx are good...
20:52:00 <anaselli> drakx is maintainable only by who can make hands on it
20:52:10 <anaselli> and that is the real problem
20:52:20 * coling is late sorry
20:52:38 <ennael> indeed but if drakx stay on the cellar under the rest of mageia work we will never see the end of this pb
20:52:51 <ennael> some people told that they are ready to contribute
20:52:53 <anaselli> it was born to be multi platform, and it is almost gtk oriented
20:53:15 <proyvind> anaselli: indeed, in our branch, I'm trying to address much of this..
20:53:25 <ennael> anaselli: I would put this in specs
20:53:34 <ennael> hi coling
20:53:38 <anaselli> so the idea is to discard everything someonlse tried to do in the last 2 years (just two people unfortunately)
20:53:48 <Akien> If find this a great idea. I had never thought our "core" packages could be "public", and that we could be a real upstream with a specific development roadmap for those tools
20:53:49 <coling> ennael, Hiya! Happy Birthday (I think)!
20:53:56 <ennael> coling: chhhhh thanks :)
20:54:28 <ennael> Akien: drakx is a dev project like any others
20:54:30 <proyvind> so if you're eager to address this situation, I'm still waving my apparently invisible hands offering help and collaboration..
20:54:32 * Akien starts singing: ♪ Joyeux anniversaire ♫
20:54:41 <ennael> chhhhh :)
20:54:41 * grenoya joins Akien
20:55:22 <ennael> ok so we will send a call for participation on -dev as I can't remember who proposed to help on that
20:55:29 <tarakbumba> Happy birthday!
20:55:41 <ennael> thanks :)
20:55:59 <ennael> pterjan: can you help on the code review tool?
20:56:03 <anaselli> proyvind: i offered my help to drakx two years ago and i've been left alone, now i'm doing something else
20:56:09 <anaselli> thanks anyway
20:56:55 <pterjan> ennael: not really, I wanted gerrit but it's too hard to package (easy to install if not going from the sources :( )
20:56:55 <pasmatt> anaselli and tuxta proposed long ago the UIAbstraction4mcc , any way we can find a "trait d'union" ?
20:56:57 <ennael> pterjan: do you have any idea on the tool we could use already ?
20:57:07 <pterjan> ennael: neoclust wanted another one
20:57:12 <pterjan> used by kde
20:57:15 <pterjan> I forgot the name
20:57:29 <coling> reviewboard IIRC
20:57:33 <pterjan> ah yes
20:57:55 <ennael> yep just saw it
20:58:01 <proyvind> I was told by some mageia guy at fosdem that they had done some work on some of the tools using some suse libuiy c++ library or something..?
20:58:28 <ennael> coling: any opinion on that tool ?
20:58:29 <pasmatt> it was me, proyvind :)
20:58:59 <proyvind> pasmatt: ah, yes, I never remembered to get your nick:)
20:59:10 <pterjan> http://www.reviewboard.org/
20:59:11 <[mbot> [ Take the pain out of code review | Review Board ]
20:59:18 <proyvind> pasmatt: I've still to take a look at it though, sorry :|
20:59:59 <coling> ennael, not really TBH. I'm not really a huge fan of either to be honest. I don't think either tool will magically get more people involved anyway. I mean, "patches to a mailing list" is enough for me usually with the projects I'm involved with, so I'm not really the right person to ask as to their effectiveness
21:00:00 <proyvind> pasmatt: but I'm quite interested and will be look into when I get some time and priority to focus on drakx development again, feel free to ping me about it :)
21:00:28 <ennael> coling: ok but this has to stay a tool of course it's not magic :)
21:00:36 <coling> Indeed.
21:00:48 <coling> I'm not against it or anything, just not really got an opinion.
21:00:53 <ennael> ok :)
21:01:09 <ennael> so we will ping some of you in coming days to setup all this as soon as possible
21:01:21 <ennael> it should not be long as we have already most of the tools ready
21:01:22 <anaselli> proyvind: http://gitweb.mageia.org/software/adminpanel/
21:01:23 <[mbot> [ adminpanel - Next Generation Mageia Administration Panel ]
21:01:34 <doktor5000__> ennael: maybe we could start with a simple wiki page listing all the tools and their current state - some are badly broken or totally obsolete
21:01:35 <coling> OK. I need to write an overview email of all the bits I think we really need to rip out.
21:01:42 <ennael> the thing is to make it ready for technical specs
21:01:58 <ennael> doktor5000__: I guess we have already such page
21:02:15 * coling has some rough notes.
21:02:21 <coling> But quite sparse
21:02:26 <doktor5000__> ennael: you guess? we have documentation for all tools in MCC, with a different scope (enduser)
21:02:35 <doktor5000__> ennael: https://doc.mageia.org/mcc/4/en/content/index.html
21:02:36 <[mbot> [ Mageia Control Center ]
21:03:06 <ennael> yes I was not speaking about doc but rather list drakx* and try to see the status of each of them
21:03:40 <proyvind> anaselli: cool, is it something I can take advantage of and integrate into drakx right away easily?
21:03:56 <coling> anaselli, do you know if we have such a page?
21:04:05 <ennael> so here it is. We will certainly go back on that topic in coming meetings
21:04:25 <ennael> but this has to be started now or we will have the same mess on beta releases :)
21:04:27 <anaselli> coling: we have a wiki for UI abstraction
21:04:37 <anaselli> pasmatt: do you remember the link?
21:04:48 <pasmatt> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:UiAbstraction4mcc
21:05:26 <ennael> any question? comment?
21:05:31 <coling> OK, thanks, but I guess we'll have to create one to do a review. I can get that started tomorrow
21:05:38 <anaselli> proyvind: the idea was to have drakx in YUI but all the common and any stuff it's hard to maintain there
21:05:59 <ennael> coling: ok  nice thanks for that
21:06:11 <grenoya> found that one: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Devel_Admin_Tools
21:06:23 <grenoya> but not usfull yet
21:06:32 <ennael> yep
21:06:36 <ennael> a bit... light :)
21:06:39 <grenoya> :)
21:06:52 <anaselli> proyvind: the good is that you can write the module in ruby/python/perl/c++
21:07:14 <anaselli> for perl we used Moose atm to run modules
21:07:26 <anaselli> but it's not strongly necessary
21:07:36 <ennael> #topic mga4 second debrief
21:07:46 <ennael> ok other topic is about Mageia 4
21:08:09 <ennael> so as you may have seen it, we are working on rebuilding isos
21:08:12 <proyvind> anaselli: k, interesting that you guys work on the ui stuff, I've done most work on the lower level stuff
21:08:37 <neoclust> re
21:08:53 <anaselli> proyvind: could we talk about it on #mageia-it?
21:09:01 <ennael> mainly because of https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12549
21:09:03 <[mbot> [ Bug 12549 Can not install Mageia from DVD, but good from USB flash ]
21:09:05 <anaselli> since here we cahnge topic too early^
21:09:10 <proyvind> anaselli: prolly'
21:09:24 <proyvind> or at good ol' #mandriva-cooker  ;)
21:09:28 <ennael> that syslinux bug prevents installation on older hardware
21:09:48 <pasmatt> :)
21:09:50 <neoclust> ennael: any idea of the fix?
21:09:52 <proyvind> switch to grub2? :)
21:10:22 <ennael> the fix is done. erwan_ta- gave the solution and tmb integrated it in a new syslinux package
21:10:35 <sander85> proyvind: really?!
21:10:36 <neoclust> ah good
21:10:51 <ennael> we had some feedbacks on  this fix and it seems it's ok now
21:11:05 <ennael> some other distributions are also affected by this bug
21:11:07 <coling> good good.
21:11:18 <neoclust> ennael: we just need to regenerate isos ?
21:11:20 <proyvind> sander85: I'm using grub2 for my drakx based moondrake isos :=
21:11:22 <proyvind> :)
21:11:33 <ennael> so new classical isos have been rebuilt and live should be done tonight
21:11:42 <ennael> we are now waiting for QA feedbacks
21:11:48 <leuhmanu> proyvind: but drakx support is not full (even on oma)
21:11:53 <ennael> do we have QA guys around ?
21:12:07 <sander85> proyvind: and how is this fixing syslinux problems? :/
21:12:20 <tmb> yep, live isos are all now built and will soon be online for tests
21:12:27 <sander85> when the systemd doesn't even reach grub..
21:12:40 <ennael> thanks tmb
21:13:02 <neoclust> tmb: i have some "old" machines if tests are needed, btw i need to check that they have a dvd player :)
21:13:06 <proyvind> leuhmanu: what do you mean?
21:13:09 <proyvind> +
21:13:27 <ennael> http://bn.parinux.org/p/mageia4v2
21:13:28 <[mbot> [ Etherpad Lite ]
21:13:33 <ennael> if you want to give a hand on tests
21:13:41 <ennael> and join #mageia-qa
21:13:49 <neoclust> \o/
21:13:57 * neoclust will try to test tomorow night
21:14:06 <ennael> thanks!
21:14:11 <proyvind> leuhmanu: I don't have any relations with OMA ;p
21:14:11 <ennael> that's appreciated
21:14:12 <Akien> tmb, ennael: Is there an easy way to know if a given hardware would be affected, apart from trying with a Mageia 4 v1 ISO?
21:14:43 <sander85> Akien: there probably isn't
21:14:53 <ennael> nope
21:14:57 <ennael> I don't think so
21:15:12 <Luigi12_work> sander85: syslinux is the bootloader used by the ISOs, he was just saying you get around syslinux problems by using a different bootloader
21:15:22 <tmb> Akien, nope, some people reported issues on hw from ~2004 - 2008.... but it also depends on bios quality, and so on
21:15:51 <Akien> Ok, I'll try on my old laptop, hopefully it's affected :)
21:15:57 <ennael> thanks Akien
21:16:17 <ennael> so as soon as isos are validated it will be uploaded on public mirrors
21:16:30 <ennael> these isos include also all the updates issued since mageia 4 is out
21:16:36 <ennael> especially nvidia fix
21:17:30 <ennael> #info second set of isos in progress to fix syslinux issue on olded hardware
21:17:38 <ennael> #undo
21:17:38 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x84135cc>
21:17:42 <ennael> #info second set of isos in progress to fix syslinux issue on older hardware
21:17:51 <tmb> meaning everyting validated as of last night around 22h UTC
21:17:53 <ennael> tmb: anything else to add on that point ?
21:18:31 <Stormi> if we want QA to test the ISOs, next topic will be good (helping QA) :)
21:18:32 <tmb> not really
21:19:12 <ennael> Stormi: :)
21:19:23 <ennael> last point on Mageia 4 is about post-mortem
21:19:27 <tmb> (I meant "not really" as an answer to ennael just in case someone wonders)
21:19:33 <tmb> :)
21:19:37 <ennael> :))
21:19:39 <Luigi12_work> heh yeah
21:19:43 <ennael> as a reminder https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia4_Postmortem
21:19:49 * pterjan filled his part
21:19:53 <ennael> nothing added since last meeting
21:19:54 <ennael> yep
21:20:08 <ennael> so please do not hesitate to add things there either good or bad
21:20:15 <ennael> we will close it next week
21:20:17 <Luigi12_work> it's too bad we couldn't get a few more pending updates into the ISOs (libreoffice, python, mpg123 specifically)
21:20:28 <ennael> Luigi12_work: add it :)
21:20:37 <Luigi12_work> where?
21:20:42 <ennael> it will help to keep things in mind for mageia 5
21:20:48 <Luigi12_work> oh I meant for the updated ISOs
21:20:56 <ennael> ah !
21:20:59 <Luigi12_work> I thought things went fine on that front for the initial release
21:21:07 <ennael> well we can always wait for more updates :)
21:21:14 <Luigi12_work> actually I think things went as well as ever for mageia 4 there
21:21:18 <tmb> and call it mga5 :)
21:21:21 <ennael> :)
21:21:50 <Luigi12_work> lol true
21:21:59 <ennael> Luigi12_work is happy! Champagne! :)
21:22:00 <ennael> oups
21:22:29 <ennael> anything else on mageia 4?
21:22:55 <ennael> (/me is risking her life with Luigi12_work )
21:23:01 <Luigi12_work> :o)
21:23:38 <ennael> ok seems not
21:23:52 <ennael> #topic helping QA with updates
21:24:02 * ennael closes the doors
21:24:12 <ennael> Luigi12_work: your turn :)
21:24:22 <ennael> a short status on updates please?
21:24:30 <Luigi12_work> ok...
21:24:45 <Luigi12_work> http://mageia.madb.org/tools/updates  is always the place to look, for those who don't know
21:24:47 <[mbot> [ Mageia App Db - Current Update candidates ]
21:25:04 <Luigi12_work> ones in gray have been rejected by QA temporarily and need some feedback or additional work from packagers
21:25:22 <Luigi12_work> otherwise you can see the testing status in the middle columns
21:25:32 <Stormi> not "rejected", sometimes QA is just waiting for an answer
21:25:47 <Luigi12_work> which is why I said temporarily
21:26:04 <Luigi12_work> anyway, we just need more help testing the remaining packages listed there on that page
21:26:08 <Stormi> ok (some packagers tend to take the "rejected" part badly, that's why I'm saying :))
21:26:20 <Luigi12_work> ok, well to explain that further then....
21:26:27 <Luigi12_work> sometimes additional clarification is all that's needed
21:26:33 <Luigi12_work> sometimes some minor fixes are needed in the packages
21:26:47 <Luigi12_work> anyway, besides actual testing, you can also help in other ways
21:27:08 <Luigi12_work> some packages are unfamiliar to those doing the testing, so if you're familiar with them, you can give guidance on how to test them
21:27:20 <Luigi12_work> this can be in general, or specific to the problems the bug is trying to address
21:27:56 <Luigi12_work> detailed testing procedures that are reproducible are very helpful, as well as how to reproduce specific issues in the bug reports if possible
21:28:26 <Luigi12_work> does anyone have any questions about what's displayed on the page?  http://mageia.madb.org/tools/updates
21:28:29 <[mbot> [ Mageia App Db - Current Update candidates ]
21:28:59 <Luigi12_work> Stormi: please let me know if I forgot to say anything else that would be helpful too :o)
21:29:27 <Stormi> well, the number of pending updates is the same as sunday evening
21:29:33 <Stormi> maybe a little higher even
21:29:50 * coling didn't manage much on Sunday sadly.
21:29:58 <Stormi> and MrsB would really like one week off (she's been working non-stop for months now)
21:30:03 <coling> Will try and find some time again soon
21:30:08 <Luigi12_work> yes, there are always more update candidates getting added, so we really could use an additional push from anyone that can help to try to finish some of this testing and lower the number of bugs on the list
21:30:23 <Luigi12_work> yeah we really wore the QA team out with pre-mga4 ISO testing
21:30:23 <Stormi> there's something I can add
21:30:35 <ennael> Luigi12_work: can you also past what you said here in a mail on -dev?
21:30:45 <Luigi12_work> ennael: sure
21:30:50 <Stormi> in last QA meeting it was decided to try to allow packagers to test their own updates
21:31:00 <Stormi> currently the policy wouldn't allow it
21:31:12 <Luigi12_work> ahh yes
21:31:32 <Stormi> but now, you can, provided you actually test, say : "I tested it on mgaX {arch}, here is how : {procedure}"
21:31:32 <Luigi12_work> so even if you are the packager of the update, if you test the updated packages yourself, this can help
21:32:10 <Stormi> what's important is QA team can accept that as part of the validation or not, depending on how you are convincing about your testing report
21:32:13 * coling thinks it's OK but best to get validation from one other person (e.g. on a different arch) just to cover the bases.
21:32:23 <Luigi12_work> here is an example from myself:  https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12797#c3
21:32:24 <Stormi> you can test only one arch
21:32:25 <[mbot> [ Bug 12797 mpg123 regression in 1.18.0 fixed in 1.18.1 ]
21:32:37 <Luigi12_work> Stormi: they can test every arch if they want
21:32:37 <coling> Cool.
21:32:38 <Stormi> QA team must test another arch and is the one who validates the update
21:32:46 <Stormi> yeah, you can
21:32:46 <Luigi12_work> Stormi: it's up to QA to decide how to factor their testing into the validation
21:32:48 <coling> yeah but only validate one arch :)
21:32:53 <Stormi> that's it
21:33:04 <Stormi> actually better validate none and let QA decide if it's valid
21:33:12 <Stormi> remember one thing:
21:33:18 <Stormi> testing has got 2 parts
21:33:19 <Luigi12_work> yes, QA team will add the OK tags to the whiteboard
21:33:22 <Stormi> 1) check that the bug is fixed
21:33:40 <Stormi> 2) (as important maybe even more) check for obvious regressions
21:34:00 <Stormi> that's why you have to explain how you tested
21:34:52 <doktor5000__> Stormi: Luigi12_work: is there some fastpath where released package is just broken (does not start at all) ?
21:35:15 <Luigi12_work> not really
21:35:24 <Stormi> QA tries to prioritize testing
21:35:30 <Luigi12_work> even if the update is only half-broken, they generally like to see it fixed totally before releasing
21:35:35 <Stormi> but it also depends on who can/want to test what
21:35:58 * doktor5000__ had 3 candidates like that sadly, for mga4 - seems maintainer/packager never run the program in question :/
21:36:06 <Stormi> when some program didn't start at all, we can check that it starts now, but also check for basic functions
21:36:23 <Luigi12_work> doktor5000__: this isn't uncommon due to lack of manpower
21:37:26 <Stormi> I think that's it
21:37:45 <ennael> thanks for this
21:37:59 <Stormi> oh
21:38:01 <Stormi> one more thing
21:38:17 <Stormi> the number of "frozen" updates is quite big
21:38:35 <Stormi> so investigating them and answering questions and/or fixing bugs is also a way to help
21:38:51 <ennael> can we plan to have a quick status on updates for all our meetings?
21:38:51 <Stormi> those are the "gray background" updates
21:39:21 <Stormi> we can try, I can't promise to be here every week though, but let's ask on qa-discuss if it's possible
21:39:35 <ennael> ok
21:40:04 <ennael> any questions, comments on updates ?
21:40:30 * Stormi going before wife kills him
21:40:34 <ennael> :)
21:41:27 <ennael> any other topic ?
21:41:37 <tmb> not from me
21:41:51 <sander85> https://sander85.eu/mageia/activity.php - submit packages if you want to be "active" ;P
21:41:56 <[mbot> [ Activity report ]
21:42:28 <sander85> or nobody is soon ready to take over your packages >:)
21:42:35 <sander85> ok, not so soon
21:42:52 <Luigi12_work> sander85: does updating "null" count?
21:43:17 <sander85> Luigi12_work: if you submit it it does :P
21:43:22 <Luigi12_work> hehe
21:43:33 <ennael> ok let's close the meeting then
21:43:40 <ennael> #endmeeting