20:37:01 <ennael> #startmeeting 20:37:01 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Tue Feb 18 20:37:01 2014 UTC. The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:37:01 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 20:37:18 <ennael> thanks all for attending this meeting 20:37:56 <ennael> #chair malo tmb 20:37:56 <Inigo_Montoya> Current chairs: ennael malo tmb 20:38:18 <ennael> do we have any other topics that are not in the list? 20:39:16 <sander85> seems not.. 20:39:23 <ennael> ok already sleeping :) 20:39:37 <ennael> #topic plans for the installer and drakxtools 20:39:58 <ennael> ok that first topic comes from the general assembly we had during FOSDEM 20:40:18 <ennael> one of our strong point in Mageia is installer and administration tools 20:40:49 <ennael> on the other hand it's one of the weakest one 20:41:11 <sander85> UI probably needs some tweaking :/ 20:41:16 <ennael> meaning only 2 or 3 guys who can eventually work on it, lack of documentation 20:41:21 <sander85> or should i say GUI 20:41:28 <proyvind> ahoi 20:41:32 <proyvind> regarding DrakX 20:41:33 <ennael> yep getting old indeed 20:41:41 <ennael> proyvind: please we are in a meeting 20:42:00 <ennael> so we cannot go on as we did in previous releases 20:42:01 <proyvind> I've actually rebased stuff on top of yours, with all my patches applied on top of it again, ie. same repo 20:42:12 <proyvind> ehr 20:42:15 <proyvind> same git whatever 20:42:20 <ennael> tv made an incredible work during previous releases 20:42:34 <proyvind> what I mean is, if there's interest in collaborating 20:42:40 <ennael> but this is still very hard to manage 20:42:57 <Luigi12_work> I don't know how tv does all that he does, it's amazing 20:42:58 <anaselli> ennael: unfortunately i agree 20:42:58 <proyvind> I've been tracking mageia work for all packages, merging most and done a whole lot of workmyself 20:43:12 <ennael> so we spoke quite a lot during asssembly about that topic 20:43:27 <ennael> and pterjan, coling, blino agreed to help on that 20:43:43 <ennael> meaning work together to create a real dev project 20:43:58 <ennael> and help eventually new comers who would like to work on it 20:44:01 <Luigi12_work> I wonder if there's anything else we can do to get more people interested in contributing to Mageia, it's a difficult question 20:44:02 <proyvind> so basically what I'm getting at is reaching out a helping hand to offer some assistance/help/collaboration or whatever :) 20:44:22 <ennael> Luigi12_work: we do have people interested in drakx* 20:44:38 <ennael> the thing is it's quite hard to start with, hack the code and improve it 20:44:38 <Luigi12_work> ahh, good. So I guess it's about lowering the barriers to entry now 20:44:43 <ennael> indeed 20:44:44 <Luigi12_work> yes 20:44:44 <proyvind> provided any contributions are welcome.. 20:44:53 <Luigi12_work> I've tried to fix bugs in it and gotten lost in the code 20:44:59 <ennael> :) 20:45:11 <ennael> so the point is to make drakx* a real dev project 20:45:31 <ennael> with bug tracking, releases, specs... 20:45:38 <ennael> and mentoring 20:45:58 <ennael> as an upstream project 20:46:09 <sander85> that sounds good :) 20:46:19 * proyvind is in full support of 20:46:39 <ennael> on the "cosmetic" plan, drakx* are lost in the middle of all mageia code and wiki 20:46:42 <tarakbumba> that's good... :) 20:46:59 <leuhmanu> (it's like mirror soft or identity, in perl too, no real person behind) 20:47:26 <ennael> so the first thing even if it looks a bit superficial would be to create an entry point on the web 20:47:49 <ennael> as any other upstream project 20:48:15 <grenoya> ennael: you mean hosted outside of mageia servers? 20:48:17 <ennael> then mageia could also communicate on a technical side or marketing side using that entry point 20:48:17 <sebsebseb> hi 20:48:24 <ennael> grenoya: not really 20:48:43 <ennael> just have something we could use to speak and work on it 20:48:57 <ennael> let say for example (it's an example) drakx.mageia.org 20:49:22 <grenoya> ok 20:49:27 <ennael> don't know if I'm clear enough :) 20:49:35 <grenoya> for me yes :) 20:49:49 * ennael may have kill some people :) 20:49:54 <grenoya> :)) 20:50:14 <ennael> getting older gives you some very stupid ideas :) 20:50:30 <pterjan> and what about code review site? /o\ 20:50:35 <ennael> yep 20:50:42 <ennael> that would help also 20:50:58 <ennael> I think neoclust spoke about it some months ago 20:51:20 <Akien> ennael: We're listening :) 20:51:40 <anaselli> ennael: drakx does not need only a marketing, who knows mandriva and then mageia knows drakx are good... 20:52:00 <anaselli> drakx is maintainable only by who can make hands on it 20:52:10 <anaselli> and that is the real problem 20:52:20 * coling is late sorry 20:52:38 <ennael> indeed but if drakx stay on the cellar under the rest of mageia work we will never see the end of this pb 20:52:51 <ennael> some people told that they are ready to contribute 20:52:53 <anaselli> it was born to be multi platform, and it is almost gtk oriented 20:53:15 <proyvind> anaselli: indeed, in our branch, I'm trying to address much of this.. 20:53:25 <ennael> anaselli: I would put this in specs 20:53:34 <ennael> hi coling 20:53:38 <anaselli> so the idea is to discard everything someonlse tried to do in the last 2 years (just two people unfortunately) 20:53:48 <Akien> If find this a great idea. I had never thought our "core" packages could be "public", and that we could be a real upstream with a specific development roadmap for those tools 20:53:49 <coling> ennael, Hiya! Happy Birthday (I think)! 20:53:56 <ennael> coling: chhhhh thanks :) 20:54:28 <ennael> Akien: drakx is a dev project like any others 20:54:30 <proyvind> so if you're eager to address this situation, I'm still waving my apparently invisible hands offering help and collaboration.. 20:54:32 * Akien starts singing: ♪ Joyeux anniversaire ♫ 20:54:41 <ennael> chhhhh :) 20:54:41 * grenoya joins Akien 20:55:22 <ennael> ok so we will send a call for participation on -dev as I can't remember who proposed to help on that 20:55:29 <tarakbumba> Happy birthday! 20:55:41 <ennael> thanks :) 20:55:59 <ennael> pterjan: can you help on the code review tool? 20:56:03 <anaselli> proyvind: i offered my help to drakx two years ago and i've been left alone, now i'm doing something else 20:56:09 <anaselli> thanks anyway 20:56:55 <pterjan> ennael: not really, I wanted gerrit but it's too hard to package (easy to install if not going from the sources :( ) 20:56:55 <pasmatt> anaselli and tuxta proposed long ago the UIAbstraction4mcc , any way we can find a "trait d'union" ? 20:56:57 <ennael> pterjan: do you have any idea on the tool we could use already ? 20:57:07 <pterjan> ennael: neoclust wanted another one 20:57:12 <pterjan> used by kde 20:57:15 <pterjan> I forgot the name 20:57:29 <coling> reviewboard IIRC 20:57:33 <pterjan> ah yes 20:57:55 <ennael> yep just saw it 20:58:01 <proyvind> I was told by some mageia guy at fosdem that they had done some work on some of the tools using some suse libuiy c++ library or something..? 20:58:28 <ennael> coling: any opinion on that tool ? 20:58:29 <pasmatt> it was me, proyvind :) 20:58:59 <proyvind> pasmatt: ah, yes, I never remembered to get your nick:) 20:59:10 <pterjan> http://www.reviewboard.org/ 20:59:11 <[mbot> [ Take the pain out of code review | Review Board ] 20:59:18 <proyvind> pasmatt: I've still to take a look at it though, sorry :| 20:59:59 <coling> ennael, not really TBH. I'm not really a huge fan of either to be honest. I don't think either tool will magically get more people involved anyway. I mean, "patches to a mailing list" is enough for me usually with the projects I'm involved with, so I'm not really the right person to ask as to their effectiveness 21:00:00 <proyvind> pasmatt: but I'm quite interested and will be look into when I get some time and priority to focus on drakx development again, feel free to ping me about it :) 21:00:28 <ennael> coling: ok but this has to stay a tool of course it's not magic :) 21:00:36 <coling> Indeed. 21:00:48 <coling> I'm not against it or anything, just not really got an opinion. 21:00:53 <ennael> ok :) 21:01:09 <ennael> so we will ping some of you in coming days to setup all this as soon as possible 21:01:21 <ennael> it should not be long as we have already most of the tools ready 21:01:22 <anaselli> proyvind: http://gitweb.mageia.org/software/adminpanel/ 21:01:23 <[mbot> [ adminpanel - Next Generation Mageia Administration Panel ] 21:01:34 <doktor5000__> ennael: maybe we could start with a simple wiki page listing all the tools and their current state - some are badly broken or totally obsolete 21:01:35 <coling> OK. I need to write an overview email of all the bits I think we really need to rip out. 21:01:42 <ennael> the thing is to make it ready for technical specs 21:01:58 <ennael> doktor5000__: I guess we have already such page 21:02:15 * coling has some rough notes. 21:02:21 <coling> But quite sparse 21:02:26 <doktor5000__> ennael: you guess? we have documentation for all tools in MCC, with a different scope (enduser) 21:02:35 <doktor5000__> ennael: https://doc.mageia.org/mcc/4/en/content/index.html 21:02:36 <[mbot> [ Mageia Control Center ] 21:03:06 <ennael> yes I was not speaking about doc but rather list drakx* and try to see the status of each of them 21:03:40 <proyvind> anaselli: cool, is it something I can take advantage of and integrate into drakx right away easily? 21:03:56 <coling> anaselli, do you know if we have such a page? 21:04:05 <ennael> so here it is. We will certainly go back on that topic in coming meetings 21:04:25 <ennael> but this has to be started now or we will have the same mess on beta releases :) 21:04:27 <anaselli> coling: we have a wiki for UI abstraction 21:04:37 <anaselli> pasmatt: do you remember the link? 21:04:48 <pasmatt> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:UiAbstraction4mcc 21:05:26 <ennael> any question? comment? 21:05:31 <coling> OK, thanks, but I guess we'll have to create one to do a review. I can get that started tomorrow 21:05:38 <anaselli> proyvind: the idea was to have drakx in YUI but all the common and any stuff it's hard to maintain there 21:05:59 <ennael> coling: ok nice thanks for that 21:06:11 <grenoya> found that one: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Devel_Admin_Tools 21:06:23 <grenoya> but not usfull yet 21:06:32 <ennael> yep 21:06:36 <ennael> a bit... light :) 21:06:39 <grenoya> :) 21:06:52 <anaselli> proyvind: the good is that you can write the module in ruby/python/perl/c++ 21:07:14 <anaselli> for perl we used Moose atm to run modules 21:07:26 <anaselli> but it's not strongly necessary 21:07:36 <ennael> #topic mga4 second debrief 21:07:46 <ennael> ok other topic is about Mageia 4 21:08:09 <ennael> so as you may have seen it, we are working on rebuilding isos 21:08:12 <proyvind> anaselli: k, interesting that you guys work on the ui stuff, I've done most work on the lower level stuff 21:08:37 <neoclust> re 21:08:53 <anaselli> proyvind: could we talk about it on #mageia-it? 21:09:01 <ennael> mainly because of https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12549 21:09:03 <[mbot> [ Bug 12549 Can not install Mageia from DVD, but good from USB flash ] 21:09:05 <anaselli> since here we cahnge topic too early^ 21:09:10 <proyvind> anaselli: prolly' 21:09:24 <proyvind> or at good ol' #mandriva-cooker ;) 21:09:28 <ennael> that syslinux bug prevents installation on older hardware 21:09:48 <pasmatt> :) 21:09:50 <neoclust> ennael: any idea of the fix? 21:09:52 <proyvind> switch to grub2? :) 21:10:22 <ennael> the fix is done. erwan_ta- gave the solution and tmb integrated it in a new syslinux package 21:10:35 <sander85> proyvind: really?! 21:10:36 <neoclust> ah good 21:10:51 <ennael> we had some feedbacks on this fix and it seems it's ok now 21:11:05 <ennael> some other distributions are also affected by this bug 21:11:07 <coling> good good. 21:11:18 <neoclust> ennael: we just need to regenerate isos ? 21:11:20 <proyvind> sander85: I'm using grub2 for my drakx based moondrake isos := 21:11:22 <proyvind> :) 21:11:33 <ennael> so new classical isos have been rebuilt and live should be done tonight 21:11:42 <ennael> we are now waiting for QA feedbacks 21:11:48 <leuhmanu> proyvind: but drakx support is not full (even on oma) 21:11:53 <ennael> do we have QA guys around ? 21:12:07 <sander85> proyvind: and how is this fixing syslinux problems? :/ 21:12:20 <tmb> yep, live isos are all now built and will soon be online for tests 21:12:27 <sander85> when the systemd doesn't even reach grub.. 21:12:40 <ennael> thanks tmb 21:13:02 <neoclust> tmb: i have some "old" machines if tests are needed, btw i need to check that they have a dvd player :) 21:13:06 <proyvind> leuhmanu: what do you mean? 21:13:09 <proyvind> + 21:13:27 <ennael> http://bn.parinux.org/p/mageia4v2 21:13:28 <[mbot> [ Etherpad Lite ] 21:13:33 <ennael> if you want to give a hand on tests 21:13:41 <ennael> and join #mageia-qa 21:13:49 <neoclust> \o/ 21:13:57 * neoclust will try to test tomorow night 21:14:06 <ennael> thanks! 21:14:11 <proyvind> leuhmanu: I don't have any relations with OMA ;p 21:14:11 <ennael> that's appreciated 21:14:12 <Akien> tmb, ennael: Is there an easy way to know if a given hardware would be affected, apart from trying with a Mageia 4 v1 ISO? 21:14:43 <sander85> Akien: there probably isn't 21:14:53 <ennael> nope 21:14:57 <ennael> I don't think so 21:15:12 <Luigi12_work> sander85: syslinux is the bootloader used by the ISOs, he was just saying you get around syslinux problems by using a different bootloader 21:15:22 <tmb> Akien, nope, some people reported issues on hw from ~2004 - 2008.... but it also depends on bios quality, and so on 21:15:51 <Akien> Ok, I'll try on my old laptop, hopefully it's affected :) 21:15:57 <ennael> thanks Akien 21:16:17 <ennael> so as soon as isos are validated it will be uploaded on public mirrors 21:16:30 <ennael> these isos include also all the updates issued since mageia 4 is out 21:16:36 <ennael> especially nvidia fix 21:17:30 <ennael> #info second set of isos in progress to fix syslinux issue on olded hardware 21:17:38 <ennael> #undo 21:17:38 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x84135cc> 21:17:42 <ennael> #info second set of isos in progress to fix syslinux issue on older hardware 21:17:51 <tmb> meaning everyting validated as of last night around 22h UTC 21:17:53 <ennael> tmb: anything else to add on that point ? 21:18:31 <Stormi> if we want QA to test the ISOs, next topic will be good (helping QA) :) 21:18:32 <tmb> not really 21:19:12 <ennael> Stormi: :) 21:19:23 <ennael> last point on Mageia 4 is about post-mortem 21:19:27 <tmb> (I meant "not really" as an answer to ennael just in case someone wonders) 21:19:33 <tmb> :) 21:19:37 <ennael> :)) 21:19:39 <Luigi12_work> heh yeah 21:19:43 <ennael> as a reminder https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia4_Postmortem 21:19:49 * pterjan filled his part 21:19:53 <ennael> nothing added since last meeting 21:19:54 <ennael> yep 21:20:08 <ennael> so please do not hesitate to add things there either good or bad 21:20:15 <ennael> we will close it next week 21:20:17 <Luigi12_work> it's too bad we couldn't get a few more pending updates into the ISOs (libreoffice, python, mpg123 specifically) 21:20:28 <ennael> Luigi12_work: add it :) 21:20:37 <Luigi12_work> where? 21:20:42 <ennael> it will help to keep things in mind for mageia 5 21:20:48 <Luigi12_work> oh I meant for the updated ISOs 21:20:56 <ennael> ah ! 21:20:59 <Luigi12_work> I thought things went fine on that front for the initial release 21:21:07 <ennael> well we can always wait for more updates :) 21:21:14 <Luigi12_work> actually I think things went as well as ever for mageia 4 there 21:21:18 <tmb> and call it mga5 :) 21:21:21 <ennael> :) 21:21:50 <Luigi12_work> lol true 21:21:59 <ennael> Luigi12_work is happy! Champagne! :) 21:22:00 <ennael> oups 21:22:29 <ennael> anything else on mageia 4? 21:22:55 <ennael> (/me is risking her life with Luigi12_work ) 21:23:01 <Luigi12_work> :o) 21:23:38 <ennael> ok seems not 21:23:52 <ennael> #topic helping QA with updates 21:24:02 * ennael closes the doors 21:24:12 <ennael> Luigi12_work: your turn :) 21:24:22 <ennael> a short status on updates please? 21:24:30 <Luigi12_work> ok... 21:24:45 <Luigi12_work> http://mageia.madb.org/tools/updates is always the place to look, for those who don't know 21:24:47 <[mbot> [ Mageia App Db - Current Update candidates ] 21:25:04 <Luigi12_work> ones in gray have been rejected by QA temporarily and need some feedback or additional work from packagers 21:25:22 <Luigi12_work> otherwise you can see the testing status in the middle columns 21:25:32 <Stormi> not "rejected", sometimes QA is just waiting for an answer 21:25:47 <Luigi12_work> which is why I said temporarily 21:26:04 <Luigi12_work> anyway, we just need more help testing the remaining packages listed there on that page 21:26:08 <Stormi> ok (some packagers tend to take the "rejected" part badly, that's why I'm saying :)) 21:26:20 <Luigi12_work> ok, well to explain that further then.... 21:26:27 <Luigi12_work> sometimes additional clarification is all that's needed 21:26:33 <Luigi12_work> sometimes some minor fixes are needed in the packages 21:26:47 <Luigi12_work> anyway, besides actual testing, you can also help in other ways 21:27:08 <Luigi12_work> some packages are unfamiliar to those doing the testing, so if you're familiar with them, you can give guidance on how to test them 21:27:20 <Luigi12_work> this can be in general, or specific to the problems the bug is trying to address 21:27:56 <Luigi12_work> detailed testing procedures that are reproducible are very helpful, as well as how to reproduce specific issues in the bug reports if possible 21:28:26 <Luigi12_work> does anyone have any questions about what's displayed on the page? http://mageia.madb.org/tools/updates 21:28:29 <[mbot> [ Mageia App Db - Current Update candidates ] 21:28:59 <Luigi12_work> Stormi: please let me know if I forgot to say anything else that would be helpful too :o) 21:29:27 <Stormi> well, the number of pending updates is the same as sunday evening 21:29:33 <Stormi> maybe a little higher even 21:29:50 * coling didn't manage much on Sunday sadly. 21:29:58 <Stormi> and MrsB would really like one week off (she's been working non-stop for months now) 21:30:03 <coling> Will try and find some time again soon 21:30:08 <Luigi12_work> yes, there are always more update candidates getting added, so we really could use an additional push from anyone that can help to try to finish some of this testing and lower the number of bugs on the list 21:30:23 <Luigi12_work> yeah we really wore the QA team out with pre-mga4 ISO testing 21:30:23 <Stormi> there's something I can add 21:30:35 <ennael> Luigi12_work: can you also past what you said here in a mail on -dev? 21:30:45 <Luigi12_work> ennael: sure 21:30:50 <Stormi> in last QA meeting it was decided to try to allow packagers to test their own updates 21:31:00 <Stormi> currently the policy wouldn't allow it 21:31:12 <Luigi12_work> ahh yes 21:31:32 <Stormi> but now, you can, provided you actually test, say : "I tested it on mgaX {arch}, here is how : {procedure}" 21:31:32 <Luigi12_work> so even if you are the packager of the update, if you test the updated packages yourself, this can help 21:32:10 <Stormi> what's important is QA team can accept that as part of the validation or not, depending on how you are convincing about your testing report 21:32:13 * coling thinks it's OK but best to get validation from one other person (e.g. on a different arch) just to cover the bases. 21:32:23 <Luigi12_work> here is an example from myself: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=12797#c3 21:32:24 <Stormi> you can test only one arch 21:32:25 <[mbot> [ Bug 12797 mpg123 regression in 1.18.0 fixed in 1.18.1 ] 21:32:37 <Luigi12_work> Stormi: they can test every arch if they want 21:32:37 <coling> Cool. 21:32:38 <Stormi> QA team must test another arch and is the one who validates the update 21:32:46 <Stormi> yeah, you can 21:32:46 <Luigi12_work> Stormi: it's up to QA to decide how to factor their testing into the validation 21:32:48 <coling> yeah but only validate one arch :) 21:32:53 <Stormi> that's it 21:33:04 <Stormi> actually better validate none and let QA decide if it's valid 21:33:12 <Stormi> remember one thing: 21:33:18 <Stormi> testing has got 2 parts 21:33:19 <Luigi12_work> yes, QA team will add the OK tags to the whiteboard 21:33:22 <Stormi> 1) check that the bug is fixed 21:33:40 <Stormi> 2) (as important maybe even more) check for obvious regressions 21:34:00 <Stormi> that's why you have to explain how you tested 21:34:52 <doktor5000__> Stormi: Luigi12_work: is there some fastpath where released package is just broken (does not start at all) ? 21:35:15 <Luigi12_work> not really 21:35:24 <Stormi> QA tries to prioritize testing 21:35:30 <Luigi12_work> even if the update is only half-broken, they generally like to see it fixed totally before releasing 21:35:35 <Stormi> but it also depends on who can/want to test what 21:35:58 * doktor5000__ had 3 candidates like that sadly, for mga4 - seems maintainer/packager never run the program in question :/ 21:36:06 <Stormi> when some program didn't start at all, we can check that it starts now, but also check for basic functions 21:36:23 <Luigi12_work> doktor5000__: this isn't uncommon due to lack of manpower 21:37:26 <Stormi> I think that's it 21:37:45 <ennael> thanks for this 21:37:59 <Stormi> oh 21:38:01 <Stormi> one more thing 21:38:17 <Stormi> the number of "frozen" updates is quite big 21:38:35 <Stormi> so investigating them and answering questions and/or fixing bugs is also a way to help 21:38:51 <ennael> can we plan to have a quick status on updates for all our meetings? 21:38:51 <Stormi> those are the "gray background" updates 21:39:21 <Stormi> we can try, I can't promise to be here every week though, but let's ask on qa-discuss if it's possible 21:39:35 <ennael> ok 21:40:04 <ennael> any questions, comments on updates ? 21:40:30 * Stormi going before wife kills him 21:40:34 <ennael> :) 21:41:27 <ennael> any other topic ? 21:41:37 <tmb> not from me 21:41:51 <sander85> https://sander85.eu/mageia/activity.php - submit packages if you want to be "active" ;P 21:41:56 <[mbot> [ Activity report ] 21:42:28 <sander85> or nobody is soon ready to take over your packages >:) 21:42:35 <sander85> ok, not so soon 21:42:52 <Luigi12_work> sander85: does updating "null" count? 21:43:17 <sander85> Luigi12_work: if you submit it it does :P 21:43:22 <Luigi12_work> hehe 21:43:33 <ennael> ok let's close the meeting then 21:43:40 <ennael> #endmeeting