19:05:07 <ennael> #startmeeting
19:05:07 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Tue Jun  4 19:05:07 2013 UTC.  The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:05:07 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:05:11 <ennael> #chair malo
19:05:11 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: ennael malo
19:05:16 <ennael> hi all
19:05:19 <AL13N> hi
19:05:21 <grenoya> hi
19:05:21 <malo> Hi all!
19:05:25 <DavidWHodgins> HiYa
19:05:34 <harms> hi
19:05:44 <barjac> hi
19:05:55 <AL13N> great, irc network failure at this time
19:06:00 <ennael> woot
19:06:12 <ennael> it's a conspiration
19:06:15 <tarakbumba> hi!
19:06:30 <malo> should we start with who's new? Like QA does.
19:06:55 <malo> or meeting allergy
19:07:06 <malo> #topic Who's new?
19:07:21 <sebsebseb> hi
19:07:25 <tarakbumba> I  am. Packager apprentice from Turkey, member of Turkish Mageia Community and also i18n translator.
19:07:41 <AL13N> tarakbumba: what are your plans?
19:07:43 <malo> tarakbumba: welcome to Mageia!
19:07:50 * sebsebseb thinks tarakbumba  is our hope at getting Mate into Mageia 4 :d
19:07:50 <grenoya> tarakbumba: welcome
19:07:59 <ennael> sebsebseb: please
19:08:20 <tarakbumba> thank you all. My initial plan is help Mageia... Nothing more.
19:08:24 <ennael> :)
19:08:30 <sebsebseb> if accepted and so on
19:08:36 <malo> Thanks tarakbumba, any other apprentice around?
19:09:34 <malo> ok, let's move on then.
19:09:52 <ennael> just a smaal word
19:09:54 <ennael> small
19:10:08 <ennael> tmb will not be around for some days/weeks
19:10:16 <AL13N> :(
19:10:49 <ennael> tmb will not be around for some days/weeks we just hope to see him in top form
19:11:23 <ennael> ok I would like to add 2 more small topics
19:11:29 <ennael> before SIGs
19:11:41 <ennael> #topic api and isos
19:12:27 <ennael> so as mitya said just before meeting http://mirrors.mageia.org/api/mageia.cauldron.i586.list is returning mageia 3 instead of cauldron
19:12:51 <ennael> it should be back soon
19:13:19 <ennael> we decided to change it as we discover a bug on isos, they have a wrong media.cfg inside with reference to cauldron...
19:13:32 <DavidWHodgins> I think it should continue returning 3, until at least a week after the new isos are released.
19:13:38 <ennael> so when people add media at the end of installation process to get updates
19:13:46 <ennael> they get cauldron...
19:13:51 <AL13N> hmm
19:13:58 <ennael> I'm working on it with DavidWHodgins for new isos
19:14:04 <ennael> it should be done soon
19:14:21 <ennael> mitya: does it answer your question ? :)
19:14:49 <remmy_> Can we tell from the version string in the request if person is on 3 or cauldron and adjust accordingly?
19:14:56 <remmy_> user agent I mean
19:15:47 <andre999> we should be very careful about what goes into cauldron in the meantime then
19:15:50 <AL13N> that sounds like a good idea
19:15:59 <ennael> you should check product.id and mageia-release files
19:16:14 <ennael> it should have Official inside
19:16:49 <ennael> we will write a post blog as soon as isos are valdated
19:16:52 <ennael> we will write a post blog as soon as isos are validated
19:17:14 <AL13N> mirrors.mageia.org/api could have a conditinal rewrite depending if the user agent header says "mageia 3"
19:17:28 <sebsebseb> yeah the Mageia 3.1 ISO's are still not out ?
19:17:30 <AL13N> on the server
19:17:37 <ovitters> too bad, almost at 400GB upload of the x86_64 dvd/iso
19:17:51 <remmy_> ovitters: You can go to 400GB again ;)
19:17:52 <ennael> questions?
19:17:56 <ennael> :)
19:17:59 <mitya> ennael: thumbs up! I know that was a deliberate scheme to get more volunteers involved ;)
19:18:13 <ennael> mitya: how did you guess ? :)
19:18:24 <AL13N> ennael: can you check with sysadmin team if a conditional rewrite is a possibility?
19:18:30 <ennael> now the point will be to avoid having such bug for next release and work on automatic checks
19:18:38 <ennael> AL13N: please mail them
19:18:45 <AL13N> k
19:18:48 <ennael> thanks
19:19:02 <ennael> ok second "small" topic
19:19:23 <ennael> #topic packagers meetings
19:19:43 <ennael> so we asked you guys to answer questions so that we can plan better our meetings
19:19:53 <ennael> here are the results
19:19:54 <ennael> https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1MkEmGNSIxwMBanlNKzX7EA28KEAO-B0QS3q9891enNI/viewanalytics
19:19:55 <[mbot> [ Packagers meeting - Google Drive ]
19:20:23 <ennael> as you can see basically it will not change much except we will have meetings every 2 weeks
19:20:34 <ennael> unless there is an emergency
19:21:48 <AL13N> ok
19:22:03 <malo> ennael: emergency??
19:22:47 <ennael> something that we should speak about that cannot wait
19:23:02 <ennael> for example decide do eat an apprentice :)
19:23:12 <mitya> malo: like "Microsoft went bankrupt, EU choses Mageia" you know :)
19:24:02 <mitya> *chooses
19:24:12 <ennael> questions ?
19:24:13 <Kharec_> Oro_Valley_: I don't remember that, when was it?
19:24:17 <malo> ok
19:24:21 <sander85> i think a month or two before release we should meet every week
19:24:46 <sander85> rest of the time it's ok to meet every 2nd week, there is not that much to talk about :)
19:25:04 <ennael> ok next topic then
19:25:09 <ennael> #topic Post-mortem of Mageia 3
19:25:34 <ennael> as a reminder https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia3_Postmortem
19:25:52 <malo> I will try to announce the meetings in advance as well
19:26:19 <sander85> well, one thing is sure.. we need to do better next time :/
19:26:39 <ennael> not a lot of people wrote there...
19:26:42 <AL13N> yes
19:26:49 <sander85> I can't say I'm too happy about our Gnome situation :(
19:26:58 <andre999> me neither
19:27:03 <ennael> guys
19:27:05 <sander85> I'm not using it, but thanks to NM it's pretty broken
19:27:19 <ennael> we ask you to list items on wiki
19:27:24 <ennael> this is important
19:27:36 <sander85> also we need to come out with better release plan
19:27:54 * sebsebseb thinks Mageia releasese should try and follow the release schedulesd of GNOME and KDE a bit more closer personally
19:28:25 <sander85> i thought we discuss it in the meeting and then list our ideas on the wiki
19:28:34 <sebsebseb> some not very nice typos there, but I think it makes sense anyway in my /me :d
19:28:39 <malo> should we start with what went well?
19:29:11 <sebsebseb> more like Magiea should follow the release cycle of GNOME  closer :d  KDE doesn't seem to be the issue
19:29:21 <malo> the reviews are all positive
19:29:26 <ennael> indeed
19:29:44 <MrsB> we managed to release on the day we said we would
19:30:01 <sander85> not all, but most of them :)
19:30:07 <MrsB> morning btw
19:30:08 <sebsebseb> some people weren't happy about Nauituls 3.6 and wondered why there wans't  GNOME 3.8, but in general,  the reviews were postive sure
19:30:11 <malo> despite a stagnation of packagers, we had a couple of thousands more packages
19:30:16 <ennael> 3rd release which is a very positive signal for people outside. Mageia is now seen to be a "real" project
19:30:37 <malo> there was a huge clean up in non-building packages, which improves maintainability
19:30:49 <malo> thanks to pterjan for that one
19:30:56 <ennael> sander85: if you read comments on the blog, people do not care about some delays
19:30:59 <sander85> our iso set seems to be OK, not too many isos and not too few
19:30:59 <coincoin> +1
19:31:21 <andre999> +1
19:31:24 <sebsebseb> sander85: well some people in QA seem to think 14 ISO's is a bit much :d ,but ok if you say so :d
19:32:08 <sander85> people were actually happy about delays, if it makes the overall product better.. we somehow let them down with that, but it means we can delay more next time ;P
19:32:16 <malo> many features were implemented as planned (thanks to Colin mostly)
19:32:17 <sander85> sebsebseb: 14 isos?
19:32:30 <sebsebseb> sander85: yes apparnatly Mageia has 14 ISO's
19:32:37 <DavidWHodgins> There ae 9 iso images.
19:32:48 <andre999> sander85: :)
19:32:51 <DavidWHodgins> s /ae/are/
19:33:06 <sander85> I can count 9 if we don't count boot.iso's, with those we have 11 AFAIK
19:33:22 <sander85> sebsebseb: did you create your own isos? that doesn't count :P
19:33:25 <DavidWHodgins> Right.  I forgot about those.
19:33:31 <sander85> but you can tell me how :D
19:33:33 <malo> all right, can someone add these items to the wiki page?
19:33:39 <sebsebseb> sander85: no someone told me it was 14  quite recently,  I didn't do my own count
19:34:00 <sebsebseb> and I mean both 32bit and 64bit ISO's here
19:34:00 <sander85> sebsebseb: i'm sharing them on torrent.. I'm pretty sure there are 9 :)
19:34:07 <MrsB> it used to be 16 i think
19:34:10 <sebsebseb> and the dual
19:34:26 <ennael> ok about things to be improved
19:34:37 <sander85> 4 liveDVDs, 2 liveCDs, 2 DVDs and one CD
19:34:45 <ennael> what causes most of the delays is the bottle neck we have on some part of the distro
19:34:50 <sebsebseb> ok well used to have more ISO's but the number got reduced a bit yep
19:35:01 <ennael> drakx*, GNOME maintainance at this point
19:35:25 <pterjan> we need 3 tv and 2 colin
19:35:28 <sebsebseb> GNOME didn't cause any delay for Mageia 3 or  not that much in the end, since GNOME 3.8 got refused early on
19:35:35 <sander85> we had a lot of problems with network stuff this time
19:35:37 <ennael> or open the dev to other people
19:35:39 <remmy_> pterjan: I have a spare tv free for pick up
19:35:46 <ennael> so have apprentice there also
19:36:14 <coincoin> pterjan: et 2 pterjan :)
19:36:24 <pterjan> ennael: this is the same than cloning tv :)
19:36:33 <ennael> no
19:36:49 <sander85> many late release criticals were about NM and broadcom, I think most of broadcom problems got fixed but NM part still needs fixing
19:36:50 <pterjan> copying the brain into another body
19:36:51 <ennael> we did have some patches proposed on bugzilla that needed review
19:37:17 <ennael> if we do not start mentoring and documentation then we are in a bad shape
19:37:42 <malo> spreading knowledge is becoming critical
19:37:52 <sander85> I think migrating to git will help
19:38:18 <sander85> but we need more documantation
19:38:40 <malo> sander85: the first accepted patches can be just code documentation
19:38:46 <sander85> is there any how to for our own software? how to edit and generate new versions?
19:39:14 <malo> sander85: there are scripts here and there, but nothing organised
19:39:23 <ennael> we will need to open the brain of tv, blino, pterjan
19:39:37 <sander85> tv is allergic to patches in specs.. but I have no idea how to generate new version
19:39:39 <coincoin> and nothing homogeneous
19:39:45 <sander85> even if I would like to fix something
19:40:01 <pterjan> sander85: this is not very difficult, there used to be some doc in mdv wiki
19:40:15 <pterjan> it can probably be found again
19:40:21 <malo> basically, we need Mageia tools to become like a real upstream, not just like some back kitchen
19:40:23 <andre999> one problem is the mageia expertise is in the brains of a few key people
19:40:38 <coincoin> pterjan: we should have it in mga wiki as we can't depend on mdv infra I think
19:40:38 <sander85> malo: +1
19:41:03 <ennael> anyway what is proposed is to create a dev SIG around these softwares
19:41:04 <ryoshu> malo, +1
19:41:14 <ennael> and work on "upstreaming" it :)
19:41:18 <sander85> please tell me what is SIG? :P
19:41:23 <sebsebseb> yes GNOME, KDE etc SIG :)
19:41:23 <coincoin> +h
19:41:26 <sebsebseb> DE's SIG :)
19:41:27 <ryoshu> SPECIAL INTEREST GROUP
19:41:28 <malo> sander85: you'll see in 10 min
19:41:32 <ennael> ryoshu: thanks
19:41:34 <sander85> ok, thanks
19:41:36 <pterjan> we have for -help https://wiki.mageia.org/en/How_to_package_drakx-installer-help
19:41:37 <ennael> too fast :)
19:41:37 <doktor5000> ,seen shikamara
19:41:38 <[mbot> I have not seen shikamara.
19:41:49 <ennael> doktor5000: meeting in progress
19:41:56 <doktor5000> ennael: sorry :/
19:42:00 * sebsebseb thinks it will be good to have all the DE packagers helping each other out, when needed :)
19:42:19 <sander85> I know they already do for KDE
19:42:29 <malo> please let the SIG discussion for later
19:42:30 <sander85> and our KDE really shines =)
19:42:39 <sander85> ok, problems
19:42:47 <sander85> release critical bugs
19:42:49 <sebsebseb> malo: ok :)
19:42:57 <ennael> just to go back to the topic
19:43:01 <pterjan> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Drakx-installer_tips_and_tricks#updating_drakx-installer-stage2_RPM
19:43:11 <ennael> if we did not have so many bugs on installer we would have been on time
19:43:12 <sander85> we can't release another beta if we don't shrink the number of release critical bugs, there is no point for that
19:43:24 <sander85> this time it was really really bad
19:43:52 <ennael> sander85: just saying this does not help
19:43:53 <malo> one proposition was to make more effort on the alphas, which are quite neglected for now
19:43:59 <ennael> rather find why this happened
19:44:11 <sander85> release critical bugs count was pretty much the same 'til RC, ok, it went down from ~50 to ~30 but at 30 we can't release RC
19:44:25 <ennael> I notice also 2 things for a long time now
19:44:27 <coincoin> malo: main issue is that people often wait beta/rc before starting testing ISOs
19:44:32 <sander85> ennael: well, one reason was overloaded tmb
19:44:39 <sander85> he had to generate new live isos
19:44:39 <ennael> packagers are not taht interested in fixing bugs
19:44:53 <sander85> when he could fix release critical bugs instead
19:45:03 <ennael> we had to use matches to get them working on bugs
19:45:19 <ennael> and testers usually wait for RC to give feedbacks
19:45:23 <ennael> on isos
19:45:31 <sander85> well, most of those release critical bugs were the type that many can't fix
19:45:38 <coincoin> ennael: hey it's my sentence! :�
19:45:45 <andre999> it takes more skills/efforts to fix bugs than simply package
19:46:04 <ennael> andre999: it's not the reason imho
19:46:16 <sander85> we are back to our drak* tools problems :)
19:46:22 <ennael> not only
19:46:38 <andre999> ennael: agreed
19:46:42 <sander85> but to motivate ppl better we should not release another beta if bugs don't get fixed
19:47:13 <sebsebseb> sander85: users/testers expect beta's to come out though when they are apparnatly coming out, so they can test to etc, but I see what your saying
19:47:16 <ennael> sander85: what would motivate them ?
19:47:18 <sander85> the release was like a train that will come anyway
19:47:31 <ennael> it has to come
19:47:46 <sander85> it can't come if we don't fix bugs
19:48:04 <sander85> now we have a broken gnome with it's broken networks stack :/
19:48:16 * sebsebseb wonders if the GNOME issues existed in GNOME 3.8 or not :d
19:48:18 <sander85> s/it's/its/
19:48:22 <ennael> if people do not want to fix bugs it's all blocked
19:48:26 <barjac> sander85: If drakx tools were better commented in the sources then there would be more chance of others helping to fix bugs
19:48:45 <sander85> barjac: I know :)
19:48:50 <sander85> we have to work on that too
19:49:13 <sander85> but we also have to understand that we are community distribution
19:49:26 <sander85> no paid developers and packagers
19:49:47 <sander85> so no exact releases either
19:50:07 <sander85> we can't promise if we have no one to deliver it
19:50:16 <ennael> imho delays are not the pb rather how to make things smoother
19:50:26 <ennael> both for packagers and QA
19:50:47 <andre999> it woulf help if drak* tools controled the configs of the various desktops
19:50:59 <sander85> no it won't
19:51:15 <sander85> just more things to test on our side
19:52:06 <malo> guys, we are loosing the focus a bit. The question now is how can we improve the process to make it better and smoother?
19:52:12 <AL13N> anyway, if development (including installer) would be done earlier, there would've been more time spent on release critical bugs
19:52:26 <AL13N> and thus we might have had less delay as well
19:52:48 <MrsB> agreed
19:53:03 <ennael> back to the same pb here...
19:53:05 <AL13N> as i mentioned on the wiki and mailing list, if we keep cauldron somewhat releasable, we could have less release critical bugs and QA could test better etc...
19:53:16 <AL13N> in order to keep development on track
19:53:22 <ennael> AL13N: come on...
19:53:28 <tarakbumba> about drakx* issue, is it possible to migrate them a more contribution like language, ie python? I think we can attract more people...
19:53:41 <malo> AL13N: that is the purpose of the alphas in a way
19:53:42 <AL13N> we could remind people about development at certain times, i'm willing to do this
19:53:49 <AL13N> exactly
19:53:59 <andre999> testing of larger package groups would be better separate from cauldron
19:54:20 <andre999> as suggested by colin
19:54:28 <AL13N> alpha should be done early-ish to check development, but by the time freeze is there, development should be done
19:54:41 <sander85> http://check.mageia.org/cauldron/dependencies.html about this list.. we should still think about mailing packagers
19:54:42 <[mbot> [ dependencies global report ]
19:54:45 <AL13N> so, people don't agree with what i mentioned on the wiki then?
19:54:47 <sander85> that their package is broken
19:54:54 <sander85> that would help
19:55:01 <ennael> AL13N: this is the pb of *all* distros
19:55:05 <AL13N> yes
19:55:09 <sander85> often packagers don't even know
19:55:23 <ennael> back to our question
19:55:29 <andre999> sander85: +1
19:55:41 <ennael> how do we focus people on dev during alphas and then bug fixing
19:55:41 <AL13N> ennael: what i wrote on the wiki are specific things we can do to hopefull improve the situation
19:56:19 <AL13N> if we remind them to update the feature page 4 or 5 times at set intervals during the development stage... this would remind people that they planned to do this feature
19:56:23 <AL13N> i think this could help
19:56:26 <MrsB> It's jumping topic a bit but reporting within SIGs might help the situation
19:56:48 <ennael> AL13N: this is not a question a reminder imho but resources
19:56:57 <andre999> alerting the package by email of bugs can help a lot
19:57:15 <AL13N> ennael: getting more resources is a much more difficult question
19:57:26 <ennael> AL13N: this is *the* question
19:57:26 <AL13N> not something a community distro can easily get imho
19:57:28 <andre999> s/package/packager/
19:57:40 <ennael> 3/4 of the features were missing resources
19:57:51 <AL13N> ennael: more efficient usage of current resources would at least help a bit imho
19:57:51 <ennael> a lot were proposed by non packagers
19:57:58 <sander85> i think that new features should be implemented in first 6 months, if the progress is not on 80% for that time we won't go on with that feature
19:58:14 <AL13N> ennael: ok
19:58:16 <ennael> sander85: going backward is sometimes just not possible
19:58:36 <sander85> well, then we can't release :)
19:58:40 <AL13N> ennael: but i have no plan nor ideas how to get more contributors other than getting more users
19:59:00 <AL13N> ennael: i don't think it's possible to force this
19:59:08 <AL13N> ennael: do you have an idea?
19:59:15 <AL13N> (or anyone?)
19:59:16 <andre999> maybe major changes should start outside cauldron -- and be integrated in cauldron when major bugs solved ?
19:59:20 <ennael> not to force but at least try to get some
19:59:34 <MrsB> i think alot hinges on having the infrastructure and reducing barriers to entry. Whether thats in the form of good docs or mentoring etc or teams or whatever. We have to make it easy for people to get involved.
19:59:37 <AL13N> ennael: it's not a bad point, but i have no ideas about it
20:00:01 <ennael> MrsB: agree. SIGs and mentoring may help
20:00:02 <andre999> MrsB: +1, especially for docs
20:00:39 <AL13N> but chances are also higher that people will just join and do nothing or stop halfway
20:01:02 <MrsB> We seem to have people wanting to get involved but either no path for them to follow to do so or no team for them to join (dev work)
20:01:14 <AL13N> so, a dev team needs to be set up?
20:01:21 <AL13N> or?
20:01:21 <MrsB> imho yes
20:01:31 <MrsB> but also sigs will help
20:01:33 <malo> OK, let me try a summary of proposed actions: make the drakx* more open and like an upstream, spread the knowledge through documentation and grow through apprentices and mentoring, try more automated QA, get more features done, dev side, as soon as the alphas, having SIGs to group testing and packaging efforts.
20:01:36 <AL13N> pasmatt would be a good leader imho, but he wasn't around lately
20:01:51 <malo> Everyone agree on what I wrote?
20:02:08 <AL13N> sure
20:02:17 <andre999> malo: sounds good
20:02:23 <AL13N> we also need to keep the features updated, or people think we are doing nothing
20:02:24 <tarakbumba> malo: +1 as an eaten apprentice
20:02:24 <MrsB> not just drak* though, we have to enable people to work on new stuff too
20:02:26 <sander85> malo: also make the RC more like a RC :)
20:02:49 <AL13N> (which was noted in a review)
20:02:58 <sander85> RC stands for release candidate, if some of you have forgotten it :P
20:03:02 <malo> sander85: this is always the goal.
20:03:17 <AL13N> i think 4 or 5 set dates and reminders for accepted features is something we need and i'm willing to spend time on that too
20:03:24 <sander85> LibreOffice's team still knows what it means..
20:03:36 <sander85> this time we needed at least RC2
20:03:52 <sander85> as the first RC was still pretty broken
20:03:53 <malo> AL13N: we can put you in charge of feature tracking
20:04:17 <malo> sander85: we can put you in charge of cauldron health status
20:04:48 <malo> and you two send regular emails to -dev, and ping packagers for these purposes
20:05:12 <sander85> malo: I'm oriented on quality, not on quantity, so might not be the best idea :D
20:05:37 <malo> sander85: there is just one cauldron, so no quantity problem
20:05:58 <sander85> for me it's pretty simple.. make the release depend on release critical bugs
20:06:09 <AL13N> malo: i'm planning on it, so please remind me not to forget, when we set feature time and freeze dates, i'll make the dates to remind features too
20:06:10 <sander85> not on calendar
20:06:34 <sander85> it may depend on calendar 'til betas
20:06:57 <MrsB> we can't ignore calendar though, we depend on the buzz from releases to generate new contributors too
20:06:57 <sander85> but after first beta we really need to check that we can count down release critical bugs
20:06:58 <malo> sander85: that's always the goal you know
20:07:13 <sander85> malo: it didn't seem to be the goal this time
20:07:25 <sander85> beta after beta, but no change in critical bugs
20:08:06 <MrsB> this was a problem, yep
20:08:11 <malo> well, the problem is a lack of manpower, and that the few worked on it only at the last minute. Not sure that delaying more would have made any difference
20:08:41 <sander85> well, QA was wasting time imho
20:09:00 <sander85> another beta, same $hit :P
20:09:04 <malo> this was also the case at Mandriva back in the days
20:09:12 <malo> we need to get out of that situation, and respecting the calendar less does not help.
20:09:20 <sander85> it does
20:09:31 <sander85> when you are community distro
20:09:39 <sander85> people really need stability
20:09:46 <MrsB> we can't just agree to delay and delay either or there is no impetus to fix the bugs anyway
20:09:58 <sander85> i agree
20:10:12 <sander85> we need to balance better
20:10:31 <sander85> but we can't rush into release either
20:10:40 <MrsB> If we have set timeframes people are more likely to work within them imho
20:11:18 * sander85 is checking distrowatch top.. last 7 days.. not good :/
20:11:32 <MrsB> if we just say we'll aim for some day but it doesn't matter if we miss it we'll just leave it another week or two then the bugs won't get fixed anyway
20:11:52 <andre999> true
20:12:26 <sander85> we should aim to fix release critical bugs, to find help on them
20:12:31 <AL13N> i think we need to make it possible to reject features that are delayed too much
20:12:40 <sander85> creating developers team will help, I'm quite sure about it
20:12:48 <AL13N> i don't care if this feature makes it into the next version instead, if stability improves
20:13:20 <sander85> actually I don't see that many hurting features for mga4
20:13:33 <sander85> if we can fix our network problems
20:13:42 <sander85> and upgrading
20:13:46 <andre999> again, if major changes start outside cauldron, it should be easier to track down bugs
20:13:47 <AL13N> at least if i notify people abotu features and ask to keep their feature page up2date on that day, we can see earlier if some features are not gonna make it in time
20:13:59 <AL13N> and hopefully this would balance development a bit
20:14:06 <MrsB> maybe we should be less ambitious with features this time?
20:14:26 <sander85> well, features wasn't the problem for mga3
20:14:35 <AL13N> yes it was
20:14:42 <sander85> which one was?
20:14:51 <AL13N> colin and tv were fixing their features way too late
20:15:02 <AL13N> which means they couldn't invest time in fixing bugs
20:15:03 <sander85> which features?
20:15:33 <DavidWHodgins> usrmove, and fixes to diskdrake, for example.
20:15:35 <AL13N> the installer features and the usrmerge and upgrades for one
20:15:35 <malo> #info Post mortem is discussed on https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia3_Postmortem
20:15:39 <andre999> usrmove should have been thoroughly tested outside cauldron
20:15:58 <MrsB> nonfree inclusion too led to installer issues
20:16:05 <malo_> sorry I got errors in my connection
20:16:06 <sander85> well, usrmove was pretty complicated too
20:16:06 <AL13N> yes
20:16:10 <DavidWHodgins> Integrating usrmove into upgrade wasn't done till after rc.
20:16:18 <AL13N> which is not what should happen
20:16:30 <AL13N> the fact the the features worked in the end is not the problem
20:16:35 <andre999> the problem with major changes inside cauldron is there are too many concurrent changes
20:16:44 <sander85> yeah, but Colin was pretty fast to fix problems
20:17:00 <AL13N> it delayed the freeze too long and made people lose interest and those people weren't available to fix the other release critical bugs
20:17:10 <AL13N> sander85: i'm not saying he did a bad job
20:17:10 <andre999> for usrmove, it was much more complicated for colin
20:17:26 * coling is here now
20:17:28 <ryoshu> Anssi and others helped too
20:17:29 <AL13N> hi!
20:17:35 <ennael> could you please all of you add your items in the wiki
20:17:37 <AL13N> coling: we're talking behind your back
20:17:43 <AL13N> :-)
20:17:44 <AL13N> jk
20:17:45 <ennael> everyone is speaking in his corner
20:17:51 <coling> AL13N, the best way :)
20:17:59 <AL13N> ok, so i already added my stuff
20:18:00 <ennael> and we can speak like that until end of the night
20:18:01 <AL13N> noone else did
20:18:06 <sander85> ennael: it won't help much in wiki if we don't discuss it
20:18:10 <AL13N> please add stuff on postmortem
20:18:21 <ennael> sander85: if we don't have it we cannot discuss
20:18:21 <ryoshu> malo, what was the current topic?
20:18:23 <AL13N> we can discuss further on mailing lists
20:18:36 <AL13N> we need to do the other points
20:18:41 <sander85> +1 for ml
20:18:57 <AL13N> ah great
20:19:02 <sebsebseb> net split
20:19:13 <sander85> thanks, freenode :P
20:19:13 <sebsebseb> ,but I thnk most people are still here, except for malo_ for eaxmple
20:19:26 <AL13N> harms and led43
20:19:26 <sander85> he's still here
20:19:30 <sebsebseb> ok malo is back it seems
20:19:30 <malo> great, I'm back
20:19:30 <AL13N> and blingme
20:19:41 <sebsebseb> I think we got everyone who was chatting etc
20:19:42 <sebsebseb> carry on then :d
20:19:45 <malo> #info A summary of proposed actions: make the drakx* more open and like an upstream, spread the knowledge through documentation and grow through apprentices and mentoring, try more automated QA, get more features done, dev side, as soon as the alphas, having SIGs to group testing and packaging efforts.
20:19:53 <sebsebseb> and the logging bot is still here I guess ?
20:20:04 <malo> #info sander85 is going to send regular email regarding cauldron current health status (uninstallable packages, non-buildable, outstanding bugs).
20:20:17 <malo> #info AL13N is going to send regular emails regarding the progress of the accepted features
20:20:21 <malo> ok?
20:20:27 <malo> Let's move on.
20:20:30 <AL13N> startup of dev team
20:20:33 <AL13N> malo: ^^
20:20:46 <sander85> malo: uninstallable packages should be automated.. the list is too long to keep track manually
20:20:54 <malo> AL13N: it's included.
20:21:13 <sander85> I can take care of nobodys packages but we need the list generator to send mails once a week automatically
20:21:14 <malo> We can talk more about that topic in 2 weeks, after people think about it more. Please write on -dev or on the wiki to discuss it more.
20:21:16 <AL13N> not seeing it
20:21:38 <malo> sander85, AL13N: please!!!
20:21:47 <malo> AL13N: you'll see in 10 sec.
20:21:56 <AL13N> ok
20:22:08 <coincoin> malo: I think AL13N was asking for you to add a #info about dev team startup :)
20:22:15 <malo> #topic Special Interest Groups, aka SIG
20:22:16 <ryoshu> sander85, I will help you with the script/generator
20:22:47 <malo> Ok, let me talk about the SIGs.
20:22:56 <sander85> ryoshu: the generator seems to be there.. just needs to be tweaked a bit :) /offtopic
20:23:21 <malo> The idea is to encourage cooperation and coordination between packagers that have a similar interest
20:24:08 <ryoshu> like co-maintainership?
20:24:18 <malo> #info there is a page https://wiki.mageia.org/en/SIG which talks about SIGs
20:24:46 <malo> ryoshu: like co-maintainership, but more general and informal.
20:24:50 <tarakbumba> I think SIGs are, if effectively used, make a real difference.
20:25:06 <coincoin> malo: "SIG desktop for desktop environments (KDE, GNOME, XFCE, ... etc.)" perhaps it will be better to have subSIG like "KDE", "GNOME", ... no?
20:25:16 <malo> Basically, each SIG purpose is to push the distro in a particular direction.
20:25:22 <malo> coincoin: wait a minuter
20:25:25 <malo> minute
20:25:30 <grenoya> where are the old SIG pages ?
20:25:38 <malo> grenoya: still there
20:25:55 <malo> So, the SIGs will in particular:
20:25:59 <grenoya> malo: science link doesn't work and game is empty
20:26:24 <malo> grenoya: I'll fix that in a moment
20:26:24 <sander85> grenoya: please wait after meeting is over
20:26:48 <malo> grenoya: actually, please fix the links
20:26:58 <malo> So, the SIGs will in particular:
20:27:19 <malo> - manage (propose, implement) relevant features
20:27:52 <malo> - correspond to bugzilla tags for easy search of relevant bugs and easier sorting.
20:27:57 <sebsebseb> me thinks  the DE's SIG ist he most important one at the moment to have :)
20:28:00 <sebsebseb> that was meant to be a /me
20:28:10 <malo> - manage apprentices
20:28:56 <malo> - get a better understanding of the status of their interest group within Cauldron (manpower, non-covered domains, features, outstanding issues)
20:29:07 <tarakbumba> malo: they should be educational for apprentices
20:29:13 <AL13N> #topic Special Interest Groups, aka SIG
20:29:21 <malo> - report at the packager meeting
20:29:49 <sebsebseb> tarakbumba: SIG's are a great idea for DE's in particular :)  I think
20:30:07 <AL13N> sebsebseb: tarakbumba: please let malo explain
20:30:21 <sebsebseb> AL13N: yep :)
20:30:38 <tarakbumba> Al13N: ok, sorry
20:30:46 <malo> With ennael, we thought about 10 SIGs (base system, desktop, productivity, multimedia, education, sciences, games, server, dev and security)
20:31:24 <sander85> it's pretty sure that DEs need their own SIGs
20:31:34 <sander85> they are just so important
20:31:40 <andre999> +1
20:31:41 <sebsebseb> +1 @ sander85
20:31:46 <sander85> desktop won't cut it
20:31:48 <sebsebseb> oh and andre999 beat me to the +1 just heh heh
20:31:52 <malo> no more, because we don't want to fragment mageia, we prefer to have big SIGs that talk to each other and within each other, rather than too focused SIGs who can do their cooking in a corner without talking to anyone.
20:32:07 <coincoin> malo: perhaps missing SIG "configuration tools" and SIG "drivers" non? Wondering...
20:32:15 <sebsebseb> indeed @ malo
20:32:18 <AL13N> let's try this first and see later
20:32:21 <ennael> drivers are in base system
20:32:26 <sander85> I see no problem in KDE and Gnome being in their own groups so long
20:32:31 <ennael> and conf tools in a specific dev SIG
20:32:31 <sebsebseb> I do
20:32:35 <sebsebseb> KDE and GNOME shoudn't be in their own groups
20:32:37 <ennael> dedicated to drak*
20:32:42 <coincoin> ennael: k, so basesystem is a huge one :)
20:32:50 * sebsebseb thinks all DE's should be in the same group
20:32:52 <malo> Notice in particular the SIG development, which includes software dev tools and our own Mageia development
20:32:53 <ryoshu> sander85, different DE may be inside a single SIG doing their work and communicate each other (like Mga wallapers, styles)
20:32:56 <ennael> indeed but we do not have many people for it at the moment
20:33:05 <malo> coincoin: they are all huge
20:33:19 <coincoin> "c'est pas faux" (c)
20:33:25 <malo> coincoin: that's part of the point
20:34:08 <malo> maybe education will be the smallest, but it was pre-existing, so we wish to preserve it (although it could be merged with sciences at the beginning).
20:34:22 * sander85 should do some spying on mint ... just installed it today for testing and I was impressed to say the least :/
20:34:27 <AL13N> so, practically speaking, we should list ourselves to multiple SIGS where we are interested?
20:34:37 * sebsebseb personally thinks  Mageia is to KDE focussed at times, but belives  a DE's SIG would help when it comes to GNOME and such
20:34:49 <ennael> please this topic is not about DE
20:34:53 <AL13N> malo: ennael: btw: can someone reset the topic?
20:35:16 <malo> So the proposition is to start with those 10, and see again in 2 months how it goes.
20:35:18 <sebsebseb> ennael: yes I Know it's SIG's in general :)
20:35:49 <grenoya> malo: what about managing the SIGs ?
20:35:52 <coincoin> malo: and how SIG member will be choosen? who will manage SIG?
20:35:59 <grenoya> i mean each of theù
20:36:02 <grenoya> them*
20:36:06 <coincoin> grenoya: :)
20:36:10 <sander85> how do we manage them? MLs for every SIG? IRC channel?
20:36:10 <grenoya> coincoin: :)
20:36:24 <ennael> we would not like to have 1 ML for each
20:36:39 <ennael> again it would spread resources
20:36:41 <sander85> how do you discuss topics then?
20:36:54 <malo> sander85: [SIG desktop] on -dev
20:36:58 <sander85> no way
20:37:02 <coincoin> sander85: in a pub, around a beer!
20:37:03 <AL13N> good idea
20:37:05 <blino> boklm: don't you have some tools to prepare version tarballs from /soft SVN?
20:37:09 <malo> sander85: yes way
20:37:11 <ryoshu> I prefer a single ml for devs, not 10
20:37:25 <sander85> malo: I can't follow that, seriously
20:37:30 <malo> sander85: the goal is to spring more discussion, not fragment it.
20:37:44 <ryoshu> blino, mgasoft
20:37:44 <sebsebseb> I guess SIG's should be discussed on the main dev mailing list as well?
20:37:46 <AL13N> sander85: you can ignore the ones you don't like, it's a good thing
20:38:03 <malo> For management, each SIG can organise the way they want
20:38:10 <andre999> maybe use dev list with [nameofsig] suffix in title ?
20:38:31 <tarakbumba> i think gmails filter future should work for this.
20:38:35 <AL13N> malo: practically speaking, what happens now? people list themselves on the SIGS?
20:38:42 <malo> I don't think leaders, etc are necessary, but I think it'd be great to have at least one member of each SIG at the packager meeting.
20:38:47 <sander85> AL13N: looking at how ppl use MLs.. i may just ignore it all then
20:38:57 <sebsebseb> +1 @  malo
20:39:11 <AL13N> sander85: well, i ignore alot now, at least now, i'll be able to tell if it's interesting for me or not
20:39:17 <malo> AL13N: yes, and then they convene a meeting on IRC for example to talk about what they want to work on
20:39:47 <AL13N> malo: ok, so task for us ALL: everyone puts himself on several wiki SIG pages!
20:40:00 <malo> AL13N: basically yes :-)
20:40:16 <sander85> what do i gain from it?
20:40:27 <MrsB> collaboration
20:40:35 <AL13N> s/i/we/
20:40:59 <boklm> 22:37 < blino> boklm: don't you have some tools to prepare version tarballs from /soft SVN? <-- yes, mgasoft
20:41:00 <sander85> if all the mails will be on dev list anyway, then why bother listing myself?
20:41:06 <malo> sander85: apprentices, sharing of knowledge, feature proposition and development, greater focus
20:41:27 <malo> sander85: you are free not to formally join SIGs
20:41:32 <guillomovitch> oï
20:41:36 <sander85> ok
20:41:50 <MrsB> morning guillomovitch
20:41:51 <malo> SIGs are an additional possibility to cooperate
20:41:53 <ryoshu> malo, SIG can show the contributors resources
20:41:59 <ennael> have to leave for now. nice end of meeting all and be kind with malo :)
20:42:07 <AL13N> heh
20:42:13 <AL13N> if he doesn't disappear
20:42:29 <sebsebseb> bye ennael
20:42:36 <ryoshu> thanks ennael
20:42:37 <malo> ennael: good night!
20:42:39 <AL13N> malo: ennael: can you reset the postmortem topic? it got reset by freenode after the weird errors
20:42:46 <tarakbumba> ennael: good night!
20:42:49 <malo> AL13N: will do
20:42:50 <rindolf> ennael: good night.
20:42:52 <MrsB> you can always filter your mail to make it more readable sander85
20:43:07 <malo> #topic Special Interest Groups, aka SIG
20:43:27 <sebsebseb> AL13N: I was seeing the SIG's topic I think :d
20:43:30 <AL13N> malo: ok, so at what timeframe should people have listed themselves so that internal management can happen?
20:43:33 <sander85> MrsB: believe me, there are many filters :D too many :/
20:44:00 <sander85> and i have to say, gmail is not too good at filtering..
20:44:20 <malo> so since there is not everyone here, I will formally announce the SIGs on -dev.
20:44:25 * sebsebseb knows that peopel use other types of email accounts at tiems to, that aren't gmail :d
20:44:46 <ryoshu> malo, great :)
20:44:46 <sebsebseb> malo: yep that's the way to do it I think :)
20:45:00 <sebsebseb> also when are all packagers in this meeting? :d
20:45:02 <malo> the timeframe is up to each SIGs. I thought that within a month each SIG should be running, at least to propose features for mga4
20:45:46 <grenoya> malo: to have SIG meeting will require a minimum managment
20:45:51 <malo> #info malo will mail -dev about the SIG
20:46:10 <malo> grenoya: yes.
20:46:21 <sebsebseb> maybe the SIG's can have a part of the meeting in the packagers meeting :d
20:46:25 <sander85> sebsebseb: i don't have good enough server yet and i won't trust anyone else with my mails either.. i'm even backing up gmail.. but they handle the load pretty well and have decent android client to read it..
20:46:27 <sebsebseb> thing is that might turn some in to three hours :d
20:46:51 <grenoya> malo: and wiki page too
20:46:52 <sander85> malo: any more topics?
20:46:54 <malo> Before we close this topic I would just like to poll you packagers about each SIG if there are people around interested in joining.
20:46:56 <AL13N> a month seems too long
20:46:58 <sander85> it's getting late here
20:47:04 <ryoshu> sebsebseb, well I think changing 2-3 mails monthly is sufficient for eg. Python maintainers (part of SIG development)
20:47:19 <AL13N> i'll be joining development, servers and security
20:47:27 <malo> SIG basesystem: I guess tmb, colin, pterjan at least
20:47:30 <sebsebseb> AL13N: indeed I think later this month is when features should start being properly proposed for Mageia 4
20:47:34 <grenoya> ryoshu: some are in science SIG
20:48:01 <andre999> I'm interested in desktop + development
20:48:01 <malo> SIG desktop?
20:48:03 <coling> malo, sounds fine to me.. maybe also include blino in that too - possibly others.
20:48:15 <sander85> i'm interested in quite a few of them, mostly as a tester
20:48:16 <AL13N> malo: maybe it should be clear that development SIG is for /soft stuff and not for programming languages
20:48:22 <tarakbumba> i'm interested in SIG desktop if you count me :)
20:48:28 <malo> AL13N: it's for both
20:48:31 <grenoya> malo: science for me
20:48:31 <AL13N> oic
20:48:37 <malo> grenoya: cool
20:48:42 <malo> SIG education?
20:48:44 <AL13N> nvm then
20:48:59 <AL13N> malo: what about you?
20:49:12 <AL13N> grenoya: for science!
20:49:14 <AL13N> lol
20:49:22 <grenoya> AL13N: ?
20:49:29 <AL13N> it's a quote
20:49:31 <AL13N> sorry
20:49:33 <sander85> base system, desktop, server, dev and security ... i think most important for me
20:49:41 <malo> ok, maybe education and science can start together
20:49:42 <philippem> I'm allready in science, but I'll be in dev for Python
20:49:44 <ryoshu> we would need a general SIG maintainer
20:49:57 <blino> malo: coling : ok for basesystem
20:50:11 <malo> SIG productivity?
20:50:15 <andre999> education + science together sounds like a good idea
20:50:47 <ryoshu> andred999, malo good point
20:50:57 <malo> anyone for SIG productivity?
20:50:58 <sander85> malo: explain productivity;
20:51:16 <ryoshu> mindmaps, libreoffice?
20:51:23 <malo> sander85: for office, publishing
20:51:46 <sander85> can be merged with desktop maybe?
20:51:52 <sander85> if you want big SIGs
20:51:56 <andre999> productivity too -- for mindmaps, zim
20:51:57 <neoclust> hello
20:52:03 <malo> sander85: maybe we can include network clients and WWW
20:52:04 <sebsebseb> neoclust: Bonjour
20:52:11 <malo> to productivity
20:52:18 <malo> I forgot to list it.
20:52:34 <sander85> they too sound like desktop in general
20:52:37 <ryoshu> malo, yes like kmail, tb or ff
20:52:50 <AL13N> we could see next week how many people are on it
20:52:54 <sander85> if we merge desktops then splitting web clients doesn't sound right..
20:53:29 <malo> sander85: one software can be in several SIGs, a SIGs is not about only one software, but about consistency and general direction
20:53:34 <ryoshu> but on the other hand libreoffice isn't part of DE
20:53:50 <andre999> malo: +1
20:54:09 <malo> productivity is about desktop applications that are not in the other groups :-) Ok with that definition? :-)
20:54:11 <sander85> but kde isn't part of gnome either :)
20:54:24 <andre999> ryoshu: neither is ff or tb or zim
20:54:30 <sebsebseb> and Fluxbox isn't a KDE, but should go in the DE SIG I guess :d
20:54:32 <sebsebseb> and things like that window managers
20:54:40 <sebsebseb> KDE not KDE, typoed above
20:54:44 <sebsebseb> uh DE
20:54:47 <malo> ok, let's close this topic if everyone agrees that we try it.
20:55:08 <malo> #info we will try SIGs and review it in a couple of months.
20:55:16 <sander85> where is artwork btw?
20:55:19 <andre999> ok :)
20:55:28 <sebsebseb> sander85: oh like GImp and such?
20:55:36 <malo> sander85: artwork is a team
20:55:39 <AL13N> put it in productivity
20:55:41 <malo> within atelier
20:55:52 <malo> Gimp in multimedia
20:55:53 <sebsebseb> maybe need like a misalaniocus  (spelt wrong) sig  or something
20:55:56 <sander85> hmm, should be SIG too
20:56:21 <andre999> gimp would be multimedia ?
20:56:22 <malo> reminder: these SIGs are about packagers
20:56:24 <sebsebseb> malo: Atelier is the name of the team :d
20:56:30 <malo> sebsebseb: right :-)
20:56:32 <sander85> so next time i would know sooner that we are going to have weird i on our logo :D
20:56:42 <malo> ok let's move on.
20:56:55 <malo> Guys, one more topic, let's make it short.
20:56:55 <ryoshu> malo, how many topics to discuss are waiting?
20:57:06 <sebsebseb> malo: ,but Atelier team is oviously not responsibel for GIMP and Inkscape and such since you konw that's packagers :d.  so having both the tem and  SIG called Atelier could get confussing
20:57:13 <malo> #topic Mentoring restart
20:57:35 <grenoya> i have to go, sorry. good end of meeting
20:57:47 <ryoshu> thanks grenoya
20:57:48 <malo> All right guys and girls, I'll talk a bit again.
20:57:49 <sebsebseb> ok night grenoya
20:57:53 <malo> grenoya: good night
20:58:10 <tarakbumba> good night grenoya
20:58:35 <sander85> ok, i have to go too.. good night!
20:58:42 <malo> Starting point is that we need new packagers, and the current mentoring is almost halted
20:58:44 <sebsebseb> bye sander85
20:59:08 <ryoshu> thank you too sander85 for the meeting :)
20:59:13 <malo> So I mailed the current apprentices to get their feeling about the current system and how we can improve it.
20:59:47 <ryoshu> malo, what did they say?
20:59:51 <malo> There are two things we need to improve:
21:00:35 <malo> 1) improve our reactivity to new comers that have enthusiasm and energy to integrate them in Mageia quicker
21:01:16 <malo> 2) Explicit the mentoring process and spread the mentoring load to more people than just a single mentor.
21:01:22 * sebsebseb is going away from computer to,  however to watch the news and yeah
21:01:48 <malo> So, there are three propositions:
21:01:52 <ryoshu> malo, I see
21:02:16 <malo> 1) SIGs co mentor apprentices on top of a given assigned mentor
21:02:40 * sebsebseb isn't really in the packaging team anyway
21:02:45 <malo> this way mentors are always available, and knowledge can spread in an easier way.
21:03:40 <DavidWHodgins> I was wrong about when I started using gpg.  My oldest key is from 93.
21:03:56 <MrsB> oops
21:03:57 <malo> 2) I (as a mentoring manager) will be managing apprentices globally, so that when there is a mentoring pb or questions, apprentices know
21:04:17 <DavidWHodgins> Oops. Wrong channel. Sorry.
21:05:47 <malo> 3) A curriculum exists, to know which steps an apprentice needs to complete before progressing
21:05:56 <malo> Now the links:
21:06:25 <malo> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Packagers_Howto_start
21:06:44 <malo> One of the main novelty is the idea to run seminars
21:06:58 <ryoshu> seminar
21:07:02 <ryoshu> ?
21:07:05 <malo> and make them mandatory for an apprentice to attend
21:07:12 <malo> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Packaging_Seminars
21:08:06 <AL13N> nice!
21:08:17 <malo> this is good so that mentors do not have to repeat the basics every time
21:08:28 <malo> and also it promotes common practices.
21:09:11 <malo> #info new apprentice program is referenced on https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Packagers_Howto_start#Graduation_Criteria
21:09:12 <tarakbumba> also these seminar meetings should be logged into wiki to make persistent doc resource for future
21:09:27 <mitya> malo: do you think it's going to be like a webinar? screencast + slides + voiceover
21:09:32 <malo> #info it includes seminars https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Packaging_Seminars
21:09:39 <MrsB> seminars are a good idea malo, nice
21:09:49 <malo> mitya: if you have a technology I can use, why not
21:10:10 <malo> tarakbumba: yes, why not.
21:10:30 <MrsB> meetbot might help with logging
21:10:35 <ryoshu> malo, maybe it's good to make a youtube screencast for each seminarium
21:10:45 <malo> mitya: I'm not sure using skype or google hangout would be very free software spirit
21:10:51 <mitya> malo: I've got solid experience in training (parallel computing; in English) and authoring educational materials (in LaTeX/Beamer)
21:10:55 <AL13N> it could be just IRC
21:11:01 <AL13N> with meetbot
21:11:21 <mitya> *in English and Russian
21:11:35 <AL13N> malo: the seminars, are they different/SIG? or always the same?
21:11:49 <malo> AL13N: I would say the same.
21:11:58 <ryoshu> mitya, I might be interested in it ;) /offtopic
21:12:21 <AL13N> wow, this shit is really detailed
21:12:26 <AL13N> malo: ++
21:13:14 <malo> well ennael, philippem and I work hard to prepare these meetings
21:13:16 <ryoshu> malo, I have got a few comments on the mentoring program
21:13:21 <malo> ryoshu: shoot
21:13:22 <tarakbumba> i think we can use forum, attending IRC is always a pain for me 00:12 am here and i have to go work 07:00 for example
21:13:56 <malo> tarakbumba: seminars can be at a different time, during the day, or the week-end, depending on the apprentices.
21:14:11 <malo> tarakbumba: but the forum is not good for that
21:14:24 <tarakbumba> malo: but they must be realtime.
21:14:26 <malo> tarakbumba: it has to be a conversation.
21:14:53 * mitya has to wake up at 8:00 and it's 1:14am here in Moscow :)
21:14:54 <malo> ryoshu: ?
21:15:00 <ryoshu> malo, 1) there are users and occasional contributors who can't or don't want to join the official distribution (lack of time, shyness, English problems, they just want a single videoplayer that lacks in Mga etc)
21:15:04 <tarakbumba> malo: i think it can be done, create a subforum, talk in seperate topics
21:15:12 <mitya> sorry guys, I'll be leaving now, will read the logs tomorrow
21:15:29 <tarakbumba> malo: also youtube videos, or presentations can be easly attached
21:15:33 <malo> ryoshu: this can be handled by the SIG and given to the apprentices of that SIG for example
21:15:33 <mitya> good night everyone! viva Mageia!
21:15:43 <andre999> I notice that seminar 2 ends with approval my mentor OR sig group
21:15:47 <tarakbumba> mitya: good night.
21:16:25 <ryoshu> malo, 2) there are already local repos around run by local contributors
21:16:31 <AL13N> malo: i think it misses a reference to the policies page
21:16:34 <AL13N> at the end
21:16:37 <tarakbumba> malo: it should be not much different than IRC, but not real time
21:16:59 <AL13N> oops, nvm it's already there
21:17:07 <malo> tarakbumba: I think forum is not adapted
21:17:20 <malo> tarakbumba: we will try first maybe with IRC,
21:17:39 <malo> then see if some screen cast/video/chat can work
21:17:42 <tarakbumba> malo: ok then
21:18:03 <malo> I think discussion is essential for a seminar like this
21:18:16 <malo> andre999: ?
21:18:26 <malo> Everyone ok to try this?
21:18:48 <andre999> malo: instead of only mentor ?
21:19:02 <ryoshu> malo, so my proposition is to allow apprentices to work in some special, local branch - 'contrib' and train there mgarepo submit; and make this place (maybe per user?) for: 1) reviewing packages before merging with the mainline 2) place for occasional contributors who want to share their work not just in some.repo.somewhere
21:19:13 <andre999> sounds good
21:19:43 <ryoshu> malo, this would work as backports
21:20:02 <malo> ryoshu: this is bigger than just the mentoring program
21:20:28 <ryoshu> malo, is it sane?
21:20:32 <malo> andre999: each apprentice would have a mentor + a SIG + the mentoring manager
21:20:43 <tarakbumba> ryoshu and malo: may be an approach like AUR in archlinux?
21:21:13 <andre999> malo: ok :)
21:21:16 <malo> ryoshu: It's too complicated, I think we are already not doing what can be done with the current tools
21:21:25 <malo> ryoshu: we should start from them
21:21:29 <diogenese> I've been to a few mediawiki webcast/seminars. A few people videoconferencing piped to youtube so everybody can watch. Both entertaining and informative.
21:21:30 <barjac> malo: what SIG?
21:21:35 <ryoshu> tarakbumba, yes - this would attract more people to join, and we would prefer to keep this outside the official mirrors (licenses? and other potential issues)
21:21:50 <malo> diogenese: I can try this :-)
21:22:06 <malo> barjac: read above
21:22:22 <malo> alright, this meeting is already quite long
21:22:49 <malo> #info malo will mail -dev about the new apprenticeship program
21:23:00 <barjac> malo: I read all but are you suggesting a mentoring SIG? I don't follow
21:23:24 <malo> barjac: each apprentice gets affected to a SIG
21:23:45 <barjac> malo: On what basis?
21:23:56 <malo> barjac: what their interest is
21:24:32 <barjac> malo: So that makes finding a mentor even more difficult :\
21:24:41 <andre999> malo: apprentices could package in several sig domaines (as I have done myself)
21:25:08 <malo> #info the first seminars should be organised soon
21:25:21 <andre999> so they would just choose which for the seminar ?
21:25:37 <malo> andre999: sure
21:25:37 <malo> Reminder: SIGs are not about exclusion
21:25:44 <malo> andre999: for example
21:25:46 <andre999> ok :)
21:25:54 <malo> or during the seminar
21:26:18 <andre999> really good idea :)
21:26:32 <malo> Can we close this meeting before we reach 2h30?
21:26:35 * barjac thinks SIGs will be like rpm groups all over again
21:26:39 <malo> :-P
21:26:41 <ryoshu> malo, no
21:26:50 <ryoshu> malo, one more topic from me
21:26:55 <malo> ryoshu: ok
21:27:03 <andre999> only 5:26 here :)
21:27:10 <malo> #topic Anything else?
21:27:25 <malo> ryoshu: go ahead
21:27:40 <ryoshu> so the topic is related to the drak* talked before and the lack of documentation
21:28:39 <malo> ryoshu: ok?
21:28:57 <ryoshu> in my opinion we should try to make Mageia a simple distribution to remix and release, this is attracting local (national) releases with some extra stuff (like language packs)
21:29:59 <malo> ryoshu: I rephrase your sentence: "in my opinion we should try to make Mageia a distribution that is simpler to remix and release, this is attracting local (national) releases with some extra stuff (like language packs)
21:30:02 <ryoshu> the Polish community releases a remix of Mageia1 and this attracted a few thousand of downloads, and since Mga2 the Mandriva tools are no longer valid or documented propely (draklive etc)
21:30:03 <malo> "
21:30:34 <ryoshu> so it wasn't released anymore
21:30:53 <malo> ryoshu: I agree. This could be an excellent feature to have. Make remix easy to do.
21:31:23 <malo> One of Mageia's original goals was to be easily forkable.
21:31:24 <ryoshu> this would also help to fix bugs in installer - people would know how the things really work, today everything seem to be just known by a very small group of people (tv, tmp, ...?)
21:31:42 <ryoshu> tmb*
21:32:09 <malo> ryoshu: for the spread of knowledge, I hope the SIG development will help.
21:32:31 <malo> ryoshu: for the remix bit, I think that a feature is the right format. Can you write it up?
21:32:55 <ryoshu> and my idea and proposition is to document things clearly and invite communities to contribute or spread Mageia for local users
21:33:14 <tarakbumba> malo: is it still used draklive for remixes? Mandriva days are hard for me...
21:33:29 <malo> everyone agrees that it's a good feature proposal?
21:33:38 <tarakbumba> s/are/was/
21:33:50 <ryoshu> tarakbumba, as far as I asked tmb, there are special patches to make it bootable etc.. dark magic
21:33:54 <tarakbumba> ryoshu: +1
21:33:58 <malo> tarakbumba: I don't know what is used these days.
21:34:12 <malo> this definitely needs to be more open.
21:34:43 <ryoshu> malo, I can write a proposal in wiki, but I can't progress it
21:34:52 <malo> #info ryoshu will write a feature proposal to document more the iso production to make local remix easier
21:34:58 <barjac> PCLOS had a really good remix feature in 2010 - not sure now.
21:35:08 <malo> ryoshu: you can progress on it, but not by yourself.
21:35:08 <tarakbumba> malo:while i was prepearing our kde3 spin top of mandriva2010.0 it was really hard to understand and apply
21:35:23 <malo> ryoshu: but I'm sure some other people will help you with that.
21:35:29 <malo> tarakbumba: yep.
21:36:02 <malo> Can I close the meeting now? :-P
21:36:10 <ryoshu> malo, people think that hiding this knowledge is for purpuse, time to open it
21:36:37 <ryoshu> malo, any comments on my mentoring idea? the contrib repo?
21:36:37 <tarakbumba> have to go and a bit sleep. Good night everyone!
21:36:57 <andre999> it just takes effort to properly document
21:37:03 <malo> ryoshu: I don't agree with that bit
21:37:08 <AL13N> malo: about the SIGs,
21:37:22 <AL13N> malo: where would Xen be in?
21:37:32 <malo> AL13N: basesystem
21:37:39 <AL13N> really?
21:37:53 <AL13N> i wouldn't have guessed virtualisation to be basesystem
21:38:06 <andre999> development ?
21:38:10 <ryoshu> Kernel part?
21:38:13 <AL13N> i was thinking server
21:38:17 <malo> Ok I will close the meeting :-)
21:38:17 <AL13N> lol
21:38:20 <barjac> see, just like rpm groups :\
21:38:24 <malo> #close
21:38:28 <andre999> :)
21:38:29 <malo> #end
21:38:31 <AL13N> endmeeting
21:38:35 <malo> #endmeeting