19:13:46 <ennael> #startmeeting
19:13:46 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Tue Apr 23 19:13:46 2013 UTC.  The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:13:46 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic.
19:14:01 <ennael> #topic planning until final release
19:14:12 <ennael> so this topic will be quick one
19:14:53 <ennael> if we keep following current planning final release is planned for 3rd of may
19:15:27 <ennael> all packages will frozen on sunday, 28th midnight
19:15:49 <ennael> meaning no more packages including updates of doc and i18n
19:15:55 <ennael> but also security updates
19:16:23 <ennael> we have a council meeting on monday then we will decide if we are in a good shape for releasing in time
19:16:25 <DavidWHodgins> WIll installer etc bugfixes still be allowed?
19:16:32 <ennael> sure
19:17:11 <ennael> only release critical bugs fixes
19:23:53 <malo_> ennael: ok
19:26:03 <ennael> questions ?
19:26:12 <ennael> pizza ? beer ?
19:26:17 <coincoin> beer
19:26:20 <Oro_Valley> beer pls
19:26:24 <doktor5000> beer and pizza!
19:26:29 <ennael> \o/
19:26:34 <ennael> they are alive
19:26:49 * tmb stays with water
19:26:53 <ennael> ok any questions on planning?
19:26:54 <doktor5000> ennael: you should have asked for cookies instead :p
19:26:56 <Oro_Valley> yea, testing and fixin'
19:26:57 <ennael> :)
19:27:05 <ennael> so next deadline is monday
19:28:17 <malo_> only a few days to fix packages
19:28:34 <ennael> #topic release critical bugs review
19:28:39 <ennael> let's go !
19:28:59 <ennael> we are triaging at the moment the bugs that should really be considered as blocker
19:29:41 <DavidWHodgins> I've updated https://pad.riseup.net/p/CidqERC75X9m
19:29:43 <[mbot> [ Riseup Pad ]
19:30:08 <DavidWHodgins> 9 bugs I don't think should be release blockers.  Three more are trackers. Leaves 18 to be fixed.
19:30:40 <DavidWHodgins> Also posted my summary to the dev mailing list.
19:31:07 <ennael> thanks for that
19:31:20 <malo_> original list of release blockers: https://bugs.mageia.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=P1&list_id=4148
19:31:47 <DavidWHodgins> I've already removed release blocker status from some bugs, such as bug 44.
19:34:28 <ennael> so we still have https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9169
19:34:29 <[mbot> [ Bug 9169 radeonsi card booting without nomodeset locks machine on boot ]
19:35:48 <ennael> and https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5426  for Anssi
19:35:50 <[mbot> [ Bug 5426 Beta3 doesn't boot on ati graphics hardware ]
19:36:04 <ennael> all other are in tmb and tv cup
19:36:17 <ennael> tmb: can we review them quickly.
19:36:18 <ennael> ?
19:36:50 <Oro_Valley> and we still have the rescue re-install-bootloader issue
19:37:08 <ennael> so tv
19:38:43 <malo_> for mga4 we really need to expand the number of packagers who can help on these kernel/hardware/draktools, tv and tmb are quite overworked
19:39:18 <Kharec> I can help on drakxtools, I don't know enought about kernels
19:39:21 <ennael> indeed but for now we have to deal with current situation.
19:39:24 <tmb> well, the broadcom ones will get a new iso to test on to try and map the rest somewhat...
19:39:24 <ennael> :)
19:39:27 <malo_> ennael: sorry, I'm diverting the topic ...
19:41:20 <malo_> tmb: how can we help?
19:41:47 <sebsebseb> hi
19:42:58 <ennael> I've just sent a list to tv to review pending bugs with him
19:45:57 <tmb> and draklive bugs needs knowledge about perl, draklive and drakx installer
19:50:11 <ennael> we can ping pterjan, blino and ask for help
19:53:22 <AL13N> so, in short, except for tv, tmb, pterjan, blino, and testers with broadcom wifi, there is no way to help and we'll just have to wait?
19:53:57 <ennael> erf malo just disappear again :)
19:54:31 <tmb> AL13N: well, feel free to try and suggest fixes
19:54:54 <ennael> we need also some testers for isos
19:54:58 <AL13N> myeah...
19:55:05 <AL13N> on the plus side, TV is already on those bugs
19:55:08 <ennael> I will rebuild some isos tomorrow
19:55:16 <AL13N> he may not be here, but he's working hard
19:55:25 <Oro_Valley> I'll test the iso's
19:55:34 <ennael> that would be great
19:56:12 <Oro_Valley> I have two of thos laptops with braodcom issues
19:56:41 <ennael> great that will help
19:57:43 <ennael> so we will keep you all informed about progress and ask for help when needed especially for testing
19:58:01 <ennael> regarding security updates please keep them aside afte sunday
19:58:18 <AL13N> ennael: i have some under embargo
19:58:39 <AL13N> but embargo date is very close to our release date
19:58:48 <Oro_Valley> I think priority should be on those issues that cannot be fixed after the release, like the installer on the ISO's
19:59:29 <AL13N> Oro_Valley: this is why David's list on the -dev ML is useful
20:00:09 <ennael> ok so if nothing more to add we can close that meeting
20:00:52 <doktor5000> ennael: wait
20:00:55 <AL13N> ennael: will we reduce the priority of those in david's list?
20:00:55 <ennael> yep ?
20:00:57 <AL13N> or not yet?
20:00:58 <Oro_Valley> yeap, going to lunch
20:01:08 <ennael> doktor5000: ?
20:01:22 <doktor5000> ennael: there's another one, security related: https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=618
20:01:24 <[mbot> [ Bug 618 Installer gives 755 permissions to user home directories ]
20:01:31 * doktor5000 curses his clipboard
20:01:50 <DavidWHodgins> Except for 9467, which tmb has commented will not work with windows dual boot systems.
20:02:15 <doktor5000> ennael: recently downgraded by tv from release_blocker, but it's still a quite visible problem for users, inconsistent behaviour of our tools, and a security problem
20:02:22 <AL13N> maybe we can leave those for a bit in the hope they might get resovled while we wait...
20:02:24 <doktor5000> ennael: and easy to fix, from what i can see
20:02:53 <ennael> the pb is not to fix it but rather is it a valid one
20:03:22 <doktor5000> ennael: can we have this fixed, or at least a decision to only document it, and where? (IMHO it would be better to fix it)
20:03:32 <AL13N> doktor5000: fwir: it seems like it should be using the values set by the security tools instead of hardcoding it
20:04:32 <AL13N> otoh, maybe it's better as a quick fix...
20:04:51 <doktor5000> AL13N: problem is userdrake behaves different from libuser/adduser
20:04:59 <ennael> ok I will see it with malo as soon as he recovers :)
20:05:11 <doktor5000> ennael: thanks for considering it :)
20:05:12 <AL13N> ennael: malo is back
20:05:21 <AL13N> ennael: not sure if he's recovered :-)
20:05:25 * malo_ is still recovering ...
20:05:28 <ennael> :)
20:05:29 <AL13N> haha
20:05:42 <malo_> I think that one should be fixed
20:05:47 <AL13N> malo_: maybe it's better to just fix it like this
20:05:55 <AL13N> until a better fix comes along
20:05:57 <ennael> I don't thinks so but this is just my opinion
20:06:47 <AL13N> i think it needs a better fix, but if tv doesn't consider it a release blocker, and he's got more important things to fix, maybe we could fix it like this for now and open up a mga4 release blocker to fix it better
20:08:01 <doktor5000> AL13N: well, in his opinion the bug is with userdrake, only using 0700 permissions, and all other tools use 0755 permissions ...
20:08:28 <doktor5000> so the tools which keep user homes world readable are right? hard to believe ...
20:09:18 <ennael> can you read the bug comments ?
20:09:22 <ennael> check longis.def
20:09:26 <ennael> logins.def
20:11:12 <DavidWHodgins> doktor5000: Only some directories such as ~/.ssh need to be protected by default.
20:11:44 <doktor5000> DavidWHodgins: so you don't have a problem with multi-user systems ~/ being world-readable?
20:12:05 <AL13N> doktor5000: imho, it should depend on security level
20:12:10 <DavidWHodgins> No.  In most cases, that's what the users will want.
20:12:19 <AL13N> doktor5000: for most low security users, this is fine
20:12:41 <doktor5000> AL13N: for the normal user, selecting sane defaults should be our task - world readable is no sane default IMHO
20:12:58 <AL13N> normal people can still right click on their folder and change permissions
20:13:14 <ennael> as a side note debian proposes same kind of scheme for default home permissions
20:13:15 <doktor5000> AL13N: and on next msec check he wonders where all those world-readable stuff comes from ...
20:13:26 <AL13N> true
20:13:40 <doktor5000> AL13N: normal people won't know what they need to explicitly change it
20:14:03 * doktor5000 sometimes wonders about the differences between developers and normal users :/
20:14:20 <AL13N> whatever the default is, is not really what this bug is about
20:14:39 <AL13N> i don't really care about the default personally
20:14:50 <doktor5000> AL13N: read the summary/title -> that's what that bug is about
20:14:57 <malo_> as long as it's uniform and documented it's ok for me
20:15:10 <doktor5000> malo_: uniformly wrong is ok?
20:15:23 <AL13N> wrong is dependent on how you look at things
20:15:28 <AL13N> but uniformly wrong is ok
20:15:50 * doktor5000 gives up, i cannot comprehend this, but if majority wants this - make it so ...
20:16:12 <AL13N> i just want all tools to act the same way according the same settings
20:16:18 <tmb> I think we should enforce better security by default
20:16:38 <AL13N> i have no opinion on what the default is, but i would be ok with either
20:16:49 <doktor5000> tmb: i'm with you!
20:17:01 <ennael> then you will have to manage users complains
20:17:07 <ennael> we can bet on it :)
20:17:09 <doktor5000> AL13N: well you know how to chown -R in a second, so it doesn't bother you - as you're aware
20:17:16 <AL13N> exactly
20:17:27 <AL13N> doktor5000: this is why it's ok for me either way
20:17:30 <blino> aren't users now used to be able to share documents between each other? (thanks to the world-readable home dirs)
20:17:36 <doktor5000> ennael: well this is what i do in the forums day by day, you can't scare me with that!
20:17:41 <AL13N> doktor5000: i think it's more important that all tools use the same settings
20:18:05 <ennael> doktor5000: I'm not trying to scare you but your needs are not everybody's one
20:18:35 <ennael> anyway can we go on that discussion on -dev?
20:18:42 <blino> and as soon as you change the default, you might hear a different crowd complaining about exactly the opposite on the forums :-)
20:18:42 <doktor5000> ennael: you misunderstood my intention, this is not my need - personally i'm not interested with a single-user system
20:18:43 <tmb> well, even MS does not have world-readable user homedirs
20:18:45 <ennael> we may have more feedbacks about this
20:18:49 <AL13N> it's either world readable home dirs, or a group which contain all users and homedirs have this group
20:18:59 <doktor5000> ennael: problem is about default installation, normal joe user ...
20:19:04 <AL13N> tmb: doesn't it have a sort of shared documents folder?
20:19:28 <doktor5000> AL13N: well, you need to put files in there manually, and you're asked about setting up sharing
20:19:43 <AL13N> i donno, it's been ages since i've used windows
20:19:44 <tmb> AL13N: yes, but those folders are separate form home/profile folder
20:20:02 <AL13N> we could do the same thing though, if we wanted to
20:20:08 <ennael> #chair malo
20:20:08 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: ennael malo
20:20:46 <AL13N> lol
20:21:37 <doktor5000> ennael: malo_: we should put up a poll in forums and discuss that on ml's IMHO, is that ok?
20:22:00 <AL13N> but, is this really the time for it? one week before final release?
20:22:10 <sander85> what's there to discuss?
20:22:15 <ennael> that's the point...
20:22:21 <AL13N> this would be better in the beginning of a release cycle
20:22:28 <sander85> it's security problem
20:22:34 <blino> haven't been living like this for years now?
20:22:37 <blino> +we
20:22:50 <AL13N> it's always security vs usability
20:22:51 <ennael> malo_: don't try to run away now :)
20:23:17 <sander85> take some lame crapware that can run in user rights and scan all other users in /home
20:23:39 <doktor5000> this was reported three weeks ago, and now comes the "it's been wrong since ages, so keep it wrong"
20:23:56 <sander85> well, it kinda is how we release :/
20:24:18 <AL13N> if we do this, we'll have to invent a lower security setting for people to choose during install... lol
20:24:27 <doktor5000> whatever is decided, just wanted to raise awareness about it - i'm done with this, sorry
20:24:29 <sander85> lets decrease priorities..
20:24:47 <sander85> less release criticals, but hey, we can release
20:24:53 <sander85> broken stuff like ubuntu
20:25:50 <doktor5000> yeah, so decrease all the release_blockers and critical ones, hey - we can release tomorrow :/
20:26:03 <sander85> yep, that would be great :)
20:26:20 <ennael> ok guys we end this meeting for tonight this is going nowhere
20:26:23 <ennael> thanks for attending
20:26:26 <ennael> #endmeeting