20:11:32 <ennael> #startmeeting 20:11:32 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Tue Nov 27 20:11:32 2012 UTC. The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:11:32 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 20:11:35 <ennael> hi all 20:11:44 <rindolf> Hi. 20:11:47 <grenoya> hi 20:11:48 <shikamaru> hi 20:11:49 <MrsB> morning 20:12:02 <mitya> hi 20:12:08 <barjac> evening :) 20:12:17 <ennael> so first topic 20:12:28 <ennael> #topic DuckDuckGo integration 20:12:45 <ennael> so it seems work was started on that topic 20:13:11 <barjac> Yep weather for ducks 20:13:15 <ennael> sure :) 20:13:24 <ennael> Firefox was updated in Cauldron 20:13:32 <ennael> what about other browsers? 20:14:21 <Luigi12_work> updated in mga2 SVN for firefox also, will be included in the next update (17.0.1) 20:14:33 <ennael> ok nice 20:14:35 <Luigi12_work> not sure about Konqueror or anything else yet 20:14:50 <ennael> I remember a bug about konqueror 20:16:24 <ennael> we need to list browser and mail -dev will be easier 20:16:33 <ennael> chromium also needs to be updated 20:16:47 <MrsB> and opera 20:16:51 <Solbu> I take it that the integration changes the Default, and not interfer with already personalised browser setups? 20:17:19 <ennael> it does not change the default... 20:17:28 <ennael> and it does not modify personal configuration 20:17:46 <Solbu> Then I don't understand what it is... 20:17:46 <ennael> #action ennael will send an email to review browsers to be updated 20:17:48 <shikamaru> it just adds it to the list of usable search engines right ? 20:18:04 <ennael> and add a way to define which requests come from Mageia 20:18:11 <Luigi12_work> chromium could really use a maintainer 20:18:18 <ennael> ? 20:18:40 <Luigi12_work> technically it's dmorgan, but he doesn't update it very often, and I don't blame him, it's a lot of work 20:19:20 <ennael> can you mail about this point on -dev ? 20:20:01 <Luigi12_work> I guess if there's a thread about duckduckgo, I'll add a note about it 20:20:09 <leuhmanu> a some pkgs are in this state (no only with dmorgan) 20:20:09 <ennael> ok thanks 20:20:21 <shikamaru> ennael: do you mean customizing user agent so that duckduckgo knows that it comes from a mageia box ? 20:20:29 <Luigi12_work> leuhmanu: yes there's lots 20:20:40 <ennael> nope have a look on last meeting 20:20:52 <shikamaru> k 20:20:53 <ennael> it's just a request when using DDG search 20:23:10 <ennael> can we go to next topic ? 20:23:49 <shikamaru> k 20:24:22 <ennael> #topic Beta 1 deadline and Mageia 3 features 20:24:47 <ennael> so this is a review of the big features we are waiting for integration 20:25:16 <ennael> so first is about installer 20:25:25 <ennael> QA be prepared for testing :) 20:25:37 <MrsB> /o\ 20:25:50 <ennael> I had a quick discussion with tv just before meeting to get some quick answers 20:26:18 <ennael> he will add grub2 support for beta1 so in coming days (work has started for some time now) 20:26:20 <malo> ennael: I guess not just QA, every packager should help testing the isos as well 20:26:26 <ennael> sure :) 20:26:29 <MrsB> \o/ 20:26:40 <ennael> but I like poking MrsB :) 20:26:52 <MrsB> I'm getting bruises :P 20:27:08 <ennael> second feature is proposal of non-free drivers during install 20:27:24 <ennael> to follow what was decided some weeks ago about isos content 20:28:19 <shikamaru> malo: are VMs acceptable or do you also need real world installs ? 20:28:34 <Luigi12_work> shikamaru: any tests are helpful 20:28:51 <MrsB> both help shikamaru but real world are important, especially with nonfree drivers being included 20:29:01 <ennael> so tests here are just essential for final release 20:29:06 <MrsB> qa only has a limited set of hardware 20:29:11 <malo> shikamaru: everything is helpful! 20:29:24 <leuhmanu> 21:27 < ennael> second feature is proposal of non-free drivers during install 20:29:29 <leuhmanu> more details ? 20:29:36 <leuhmanu> via network ? 20:29:59 <MrsB> the installer dvd's will carry optional nonfree 20:30:03 <ennael> not much for now, could be yes but we were quite in a hurry, I will get more information tonight 20:30:11 <ennael> and mail about this tomorrow I hope 20:30:18 <leuhmanu> ok thanks 20:30:31 <leuhmanu> great anyway 20:30:43 <ennael> #action mail -dev about process of non-free drivers proposal during install 20:31:02 <ennael> I guess that's it for installer (which is a big piece already) 20:31:16 <ennael> upgrade now 20:31:19 <ennael> coling: ping ? 20:31:42 <coling> ennael, pong 20:31:45 <ennael> ah ;à 20:31:46 <ennael> :) 20:32:03 <ennael> hi there anything to add about upgrade for beta1 release ? 20:32:46 <coling> ennael, nothing specific. I still need to liaise with tmb re: pushing the rpm update to mga2 for non-installer upgrades, but otherwise nothing new from my side. 20:33:10 <malo> ennael: last grub update breaks the boot, so I guess upgrade might be a problem currently ;-) https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=8223 20:33:13 <[mbot> [ Bug 8223 grub update for mageia3 alpha breaks boot loader. ] 20:33:20 <ennael> ok so rpm is ready, just need to be pushed ? 20:33:24 <ennael> malo: wait 2 sec please 20:34:12 <ennael> coling: ? 20:34:20 <coling> ennael, pretty much yeah 20:34:38 <coling> It's been pretty well tested on the cluster :) 20:35:10 <ennael> ok :) 20:35:15 <ennael> I will ping tmb then 20:35:39 <ennael> thanks 20:35:46 <ennael> malo: I've just updated that bug 20:35:57 <ennael> it has been fixed with last package 20:36:36 <malo> ennael: ok, it's just a nasty bug 20:36:49 <ennael> yep cauldron life :) 20:36:55 <malo> ennael: I mixed up upgrade and update 20:37:07 <malo> ennael: from your sentence 20:37:13 <leuhmanu> stage2 is for installed os too ? 20:37:32 <leuhmanu> cf (Build with -fno-reorder-functions to make stage2 work again) 20:37:33 <ennael> leuhmanu: nope it's for grub 20:38:10 <leuhmanu> how can we know it's fixed ? :) 20:38:26 <ennael> it can boot :) 20:38:46 <leuhmanu> well ok will wait 20:38:49 <ennael> which is quite a good test 20:38:51 <ennael> :) 20:39:06 <ennael> next point is groups management 20:39:23 <ennael> we still have lots of packages to be updated 20:40:03 <malo> ennael: I emailed -dev, and olav provided a nice breakout with maintainers 20:40:29 <ennael> yep 20:40:57 <malo> so please everyone, look at that list and update the %group tag of your packages, so that they are nicely displayed in rpmdrake :-) 20:41:18 <malo> thanks for the ones who already started btw 20:41:59 <barjac> malo: At least one can't be done as it won't re-build against new boost 1.5 20:42:14 <malo> ennael: there will still be some left for Beta 1 though, notably packages which do not build 20:42:18 <malo> barjac: yep 20:42:36 <malo> there are quite a few in that case 20:42:40 <ennael> ok 20:42:57 <ennael> would be nice if you can make regular updates on -dev on that specific topic 20:43:14 <malo> I will, as soon as I can boot my cauldron again :-P 20:43:29 <ennael> ok :) 20:44:46 <ennael> about packages mass rebuild tmb is not around, I will ping him by mail 20:46:16 <pterjan> good news is that we don't have that many old packages 20:46:32 <ennael> nice to hear 20:46:37 <pterjan> and most of the old ones I rebuilt were building fine 20:46:44 <pterjan> (except grub :P) 20:46:52 <ennael> :)) 20:47:10 * ennael will not say that pterjan did try to break cauldron with grub 20:47:15 <ennael> I did not say it :) 20:47:17 <leuhmanu> (time to switch to grub2) 20:47:22 <trem> ennael: \o/ 20:47:46 <ennael> next topic on beta 1 is about blocker bugs 20:47:57 <ennael> leuhmanu: anything on this ? 20:48:30 <leuhmanu> #link https://bugs.mageia.org/buglist.cgi?quicksearch=P1 blocker bugs 20:48:48 <leuhmanu> should be updated 20:49:07 <leuhmanu> so currently 31-32 20:49:14 <leuhmanu> + some in tracker 20:49:18 <ennael> ok 20:49:34 <leuhmanu> some not real blocker, but needs a response 20:49:40 <leuhmanu> some really easy to fix 20:49:44 <ennael> I will give a hand to follow this and mail every 2 weeks about 20:49:59 <leuhmanu> and some really old 20:50:08 <ennael> if we do not make any progress on this we will have to do it on last days as usual which is a pain 20:51:01 <MrsB> we'll do our best to add some more :D 20:51:08 * ennael slaps MrsB 20:51:37 <ennael> #action a review of blocker bugs will be mailed every 2 weeks about 20:51:42 <ennael> #undo 20:51:42 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x833136c> 20:51:50 <ennael> #action a review of blocker bugs will be mailed every 2 weeks about until final release 20:52:39 <ennael> anything else to add on that topic ? 20:52:44 <ennael> other pending features ? 20:53:48 <leuhmanu> MrsB: feel free to set them, I can forget it 20:53:59 <MrsB> ok, thanks 20:54:51 <ennael> ok next topic then 20:54:54 <leuhmanu> ,wiki feature mageia3 20:54:55 <[mbot> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/FeatureMageia3_Review 20:56:13 <MrsB> There are many other bugs found in the alphas so far which can be tackled also http://tinyurl.com/bszn9hf 20:56:19 <malo> leuhmanu: reminds me that I never put https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:RPMGroupRevamp in the list ... :P 20:57:02 <shikamaru> could we add a new subcategory to the sound category for computer music ? 20:57:07 <leuhmanu> MrsB: or the big list since the pre-alpha1 test which all new bugs :) 20:57:54 <shikamaru> it could include softwares like sound synthesis softwares, or soft that can allow you tu use musical instruments 20:58:50 <malo> shikamaru: nope :-), but make a note somewhere, maybe on the wiki https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:RPMGroupRevamp 20:59:00 <leuhmanu> :g yoshimi 20:59:00 <Sophie> leuhmanu: Sound // core-release (Mga, cauldron, i586) 20:59:08 <shikamaru> leuhmanu: yeah that’s one of them 20:59:22 <malo> shikamaru: we might have time to adjust some categories after beta 1 and before beta 2 20:59:36 <shikamaru> k :) 20:59:44 <shikamaru> thanks 20:59:55 <leuhmanu> some are both in midi and "mao" then 21:00:20 <mitya> as for sound, at least the following major categories could be proposed: DAW, sequencers, samplers, editors, converters, score editors 21:01:20 <malo> please write your proposal at the bottom of https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:RPMGroupRevamp 21:01:39 <shikamaru> yeah we can talk about that in detail later :) 21:01:53 <leuhmanu> next ! 21:01:57 <ennael> ok 21:02:42 <ennael> so you may have read the thread about cinamon ? 21:03:06 <malo> ennael: use Inigo_Montoya, no? 21:03:13 <Luigi12_work> more entertaining than the football game last night 21:03:23 <ennael> raaaa 21:03:31 <ennael> #topic Improve / remember /write policy about packages management 21:03:36 * ennael slaps ennael 21:04:45 <malo> is Joseph around? 21:04:49 <ennael> https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/2012-November/020312.html 21:04:50 <[mbot> [ [Mageia-dev] Cinnamon ] 21:04:53 <ennael> I don't think so 21:05:05 <Luigi12_work> I don't recall seeing him on IRC 21:05:14 <ennael> having read this, the question is not to solve this or speak about that particular case 21:05:35 <ennael> rather to avoid other conflicts like this one 21:06:01 <malo> ennael: it's about writing somewhere the things we have currently agreed on, right? 21:06:01 <ennael> do you think rules are not clear enough? that we should improve it? missing items in policy ? 21:06:28 <Luigi12_work> where's the policy? 21:06:50 <malo> Luigi12_work: it's all over the place in the wiki ... 21:07:03 <Luigi12_work> nice 21:07:25 <ennael> so it means we need to clarify this and maybe write such statement in the wiki 21:07:31 <Luigi12_work> I think it's just something you have to learn as you acclimate yourself into the community, and something mentors should probably express at some point 21:07:47 <malo> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Policies 21:08:03 <ennael> it means also that mentors should follow also cauldron to have such information 21:08:12 <Luigi12_work> the important thing being IMO (and this was mentioned in the thread), that to bring in a significant new package/package set that will affect a lot of people, you need to demonstrate some staying power so we know you'll stand behind it and help with support 21:08:33 <Luigi12_work> bringing in niche packages that won't affect many people isn't so controversial 21:09:18 <Luigi12_work> well the "cinnamon" thing was a specific decision, but I think we can generalize it 21:09:27 <ennael> meaning ? 21:09:42 <malo> But Joseph is right in that we have been quite busy and not welcoming new apprentices much 21:10:04 <Luigi12_work> the reason it's controversial is it's a desktop environment, and it's something that has a big impact 21:10:12 <shikamaru> let me tell you this has nothing to do with significancy of a package :) 21:10:27 <shikamaru> old story is old, it’s always been said there are too many DE over there 21:10:42 <ennael> it's not only about number of DE 21:10:47 <Luigi12_work> there's no such thing as too many if we have the resources to support something 21:10:51 <ennael> it's also about interactions with current one 21:11:02 <ennael> the thing is we cannot afford it for now 21:11:05 <Luigi12_work> but if you're gonna add something to what we support, you need to contribute at least as much to helpiing support 21:11:07 <ennael> we are lacking resources 21:11:24 <Luigi12_work> in terms of interactions, it doesn't sounds like cinnamon is actually very impactful, unlike MATE 21:11:55 <ennael> malo: also joseph was welcome by me and another one 21:12:08 <shikamaru> well, in Joseph’s mail I read “non-intrusive” but idk that DE at all so I give you the benefit of the doubt :) 21:12:18 <ennael> now mentors also have to carefull with apprentices 21:12:36 <ennael> that's also why I asked mentors not too have too many apprentices 21:12:40 <Luigi12_work> but another point is we could do a better job bringing new packagers/contributors into the fold. They often get frustrated waiting to get started, and we've lost a lot of potential contributors because of this. 21:13:19 <ennael> Luigi12_work: on that particular point I was planning to mail to ask for apprentices on -dev 21:13:33 <Luigi12_work> ok 21:14:00 <Luigi12_work> at one point we had a "mentoring coordinator" to keep track of this and make sure people didn't get lost in the ether, but this didn't last long 21:14:15 <ennael> well updates were done on wiki 21:14:26 <Luigi12_work> ahh 21:14:45 <Luigi12_work> yes I used the wiki when I was brought in 21:15:00 <leuhmanu> where is reponsable of mentorship ? 21:15:22 <leuhmanu> someone told me in a bug he get no answer of mentor 21:15:38 <leuhmanu> I ask him to send a mail on dev 21:16:00 <ennael> can you please forward me such one ? 21:16:11 <leuhmanu> ok for the next time 21:16:20 <ennael> thanks 21:16:32 <leuhmanu> (can't found anymore the bug /o\) 21:16:35 <ennael> :) 21:20:31 <malo> ennael: back to the topic? 21:20:40 <ennael> yep 21:20:42 <ennael> so 21:20:51 <ennael> it means mentoring should be improved 21:21:08 <ennael> at least information for new comers 21:21:56 <leuhmanu> (I removed me as candidate to due lack of time) 21:22:03 <ennael> yep 21:25:03 <ennael> so maybe be more precise of what apckages should be included in Mageia ? 21:25:53 <MrsB> would it be better to be about how they can be included rather than what can't? 21:25:56 <malo> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Software_inclusion_policy 21:26:39 <ennael> it's rather about licence for now 21:26:45 <ennael> but we could complete it, wdyt ? 21:26:49 <Luigi12_work> +1 21:26:58 <malo> We should complete it 21:27:19 <ennael> ok then 21:27:33 <ennael> #action complete https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Software_inclusion_policy 21:27:44 <malo> that page should be rewritten anyway 21:28:27 <ennael> yep ok let's try to work on it in coming days then 21:30:08 <malo> so the policy should be the common sense one: "please ask around before importing packages that have a potential impact on existing ones" ? 21:30:16 <ennael> sure 21:30:29 <ennael> policy is often about common sense :) 21:31:22 <malo> ennael: maybe we can add the current consensus on that page (w.r.t. to Mate and Cinamon and upstart and ...) 21:31:32 <shikamaru> the question is also, do we decide to be quite conservative, and raise the overall quality of packages, meaning having less of them 21:31:36 <ennael> sure that could be a good place 21:31:38 <malo> and trinity 21:32:14 <shikamaru> or do we think diversity is good, and if something does not work, helping people that need those packages to maintain them themselves 21:32:33 <leuhmanu> https://bugs.mageia.org/buglist.cgi?product=Mageia&component=New%20RPM%20package%20request&resolution=--- 21:32:44 <leuhmanu> if you see something to remove... 21:32:52 <malo> shikamaru: I'm not sure limiting the number of packages raises the packagers to packages ratio 21:33:12 <malo> shikamaru: since many new packagers come with new packages they want to add. 21:33:17 <shikamaru> yeah, but one concern I read a few lines above was 21:33:29 <shikamaru> will he maintain it in the long run 21:33:35 <shikamaru> will upstream maintain it in the long run 21:33:38 <shikamaru> and so on 21:34:16 <malo> mass rebuild is a good thing to clean-up packages that do not work anymore 21:34:31 <malo> shikamaru: as long as we clean-up regularly ... 21:34:48 <Luigi12_work> like MrsB said, better to say what is needed for something to be included, rather than saying what should not be 21:34:49 <shikamaru> ok, so drop policy should be improved as well :) 21:35:09 <Luigi12_work> shikamaru: this is a good point, the drop policy *really* needs to be clarified 21:35:20 <shikamaru> but getting something to compile does not mean it works as expected either 21:35:30 <Luigi12_work> "it builds, ship it!" 21:35:57 <shikamaru> being more open also mean potentially more bugs 21:37:18 <shikamaru> so yeah we can’t import anything if it means we can’t triage all bugs 21:37:50 <ennael> ok I guess we will not finalize this tonight 21:38:04 <shikamaru> I feel that’s a huge issue with DE like Cinnamon, maintainance is only one aspect :/ 21:38:22 <ennael> can you guys add ideas on proper wiki pages about this (add/drop packages) 21:38:28 <ennael> we will mail -dev about this also 21:44:12 <malo> action ennael? 21:44:38 <ennael> oups 21:45:14 <ennael> #action rewrite, complete wiki pages about drop and add packages policies 21:47:11 <malo> next topic, before everyone falls asleep? :-P 21:47:21 <shikamaru> :) 21:48:32 <ennael> Was the last topic for me 21:48:38 <ennael> any other ? 21:48:42 <ennael> speak now or never ! 21:48:56 <malo> (and if pterjan could say how to fix the grub thing, that'd be great, because rescue does not work) 21:49:05 <malo> ennael: tv's deltarpm? 21:49:28 <ennael> malo: we can follow this on ML thread for now 21:49:41 <ennael> maybe have more feedbacks for next meeting 21:50:31 <malo> ennael: ok 21:51:08 <ennael> ok ending meeting now before everybody sleep 21:51:13 <ennael> #endmeeting