20:09:53 <ennael> #startmeeting 20:09:53 <Inigo_Montoya`> Meeting started Tue Nov 6 20:09:53 2012 UTC. The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 20:09:53 <Inigo_Montoya`> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 20:10:01 <ennael> #chair guillomovitch 20:10:01 <Inigo_Montoya`> Current chairs: ennael guillomovitch 20:10:32 <guillomovitch> #help 20:10:45 <ennael> people around ? 20:11:05 <DavidWHodgins> Lurking. :-) 20:11:20 <MrsB> morning 20:13:48 <rindolf> ennael: I am. 20:14:24 <ennael> ok let start then 20:14:45 <ennael> #topic faac in Mageia 20:14:51 <ennael> guillomovitch: your turn 20:15:18 <guillomovitch> well, I think everyone is aware of the cauldron discussion 20:15:49 <guillomovitch> basically, they are four options: 20:15:56 <guillomovitch> - doing nothing new 20:16:10 <guillomovitch> - distribute faac in the non-free repository 20:16:21 <guillomovitch> - distribute faac in the tainted repository 20:16:26 <guillomovitch> - create a new repository 20:16:50 <guillomovitch> most people seems to agree we'd better change the current situation 20:17:29 <guillomovitch> we have 50% people agreeing for either scenarios 2 or 3 20:17:41 <guillomovitch> provided we relax the rules a little bit in our documentation page 20:18:15 <guillomovitch> and we have people convinced than we absolutly need yet another package repository for this (currently) single package 20:19:39 <guillomovitch> then Christian also made a remark 20:19:45 <guillomovitch> than even if we distributed faac 20:20:03 <guillomovitch> they would be some legal concerns distributing software linked against it... 20:20:54 <guillomovitch> because there seems to be prohibited to distribute GPL code linked against non-free code 20:21:22 <guillomovitch> I'm not convinced, but I'm not a laywer 20:21:26 <guillomovitch> lawyer 20:21:51 <guillomovitch> so basically, the current questions are: 20:21:59 <guillomovitch> - is this legal problem true ? 20:22:51 <guillomovitch> - and if true, is there any interest to solve a painful question for a limited interest ? 20:23:10 <guillomovitch> does it seems a good summary :) ? 20:23:20 <Solbu> yes. :-)= 20:23:43 <guillomovitch> btw, there seems to be work-in-progress for aac coded support in ffmpeg 20:23:44 <DavidWHodgins> If nonfree programs are not allowed to be *linked* against gpl libraries, then programs such as opera would be illegal too. 20:24:02 <guillomovitch> DavidWHodgins: i'm sure they can't 20:24:12 <guillomovitch> they can only link against LGPL ones, AFAIK 20:24:19 <guillomovitch> but here, we're in the reverse situation 20:24:36 <Solbu> david_david: They aren't. that's why the LGPL license was invented. 20:24:43 <guillomovitch> 'linking' is an asymetric association 20:24:46 <Solbu> Baah, should be DavidWHodgins.. 20:25:04 <guillomovitch> between an executable and a library 20:26:00 <guillomovitch> we all know than non-free code can not benefit from gpl code 20:26:15 <guillomovitch> but here we're in the opposite situation 20:27:02 <guillomovitch> can gpl code benefit from non-free one ? 20:27:56 <rindolf> guillomovitch: can we ask for advice from the Software Freedom Law Center (SFLC)? 20:28:15 <guillomovitch> sure, if someone volonteers to do it 20:28:27 <Solbu> rindolf: Good idea. 20:28:41 <tmb> http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#GPLIncompatibleLibs 20:29:36 <guillomovitch> tmb: basically, it says: you can allow it, if you're the software author 20:29:50 <rindolf> guillomovitch: I guess I can try phrasing a query with help from the mailing list. 20:30:08 <tmb> "If you want your program to link against a library not covered by the system library exception, you need to provide permission to do that" 20:30:16 <guillomovitch> faac is definitively not a system library 20:30:35 <guillomovitch> I guess the cinerella authors, who provided explicit faac support 20:30:51 <guillomovitch> did it implicitely 20:31:15 <guillomovitch> and we may eventually ask them for a more formal formulation 20:32:03 <guillomovitch> so, the plan is: have rindolf ask the SFLC 20:32:19 <tmb> " You have to get the approval of the copyright holders of those programs." 20:32:20 <guillomovitch> and eventually, ask the cinerella authors second if needed 20:32:48 <guillomovitch> I hope they qualify as copyright holders... 20:33:18 <guillomovitch> does this plan sound sensible enough ? 20:33:29 <Solbu> If not, they can hopelully tell us who to contact. 20:33:47 <guillomovitch> well, I won't run after authors endlessly personnaly 20:33:58 <guillomovitch> I already built cinerella at home :) 20:34:03 <Solbu> :-)= 20:34:07 <Solbu> This sounds like a good plan. 20:34:28 <tmb> I think that's the way to start, yes 20:34:55 <guillomovitch> let's see the distribution issue later, once we are sure it's worth the pain 20:35:30 <ennael> so can we sum up all this ? 20:35:38 <MrsB> even blender can save as aac, there are a number of programs affected. If it's necessary to contact each one and ask explicit permission it would be a pain. 20:35:46 <guillomovitch> #action rindolf ask the SFLC about distributing a GPL software (cinerella) linked against non-GPL code (libfaac) 20:35:53 <Solbu> Does SFLC charge for providing advice? If so, who should pay? (I'm not familiar with asking law firms for advice) 20:36:06 <guillomovitch> we can't pay 20:36:20 <guillomovitch> isn't aac an audio codec only ? 20:36:34 <Solbu> yes. 20:36:34 <MrsB> afaik yes 20:36:36 <rindolf> Solbu: http://www.softwarefreedom.org/about/contact/ 20:36:53 <Solbu> Think it stands for Advanced Audio Coded 20:36:56 <guillomovitch> let's try to have a generic answer first on this issue 20:37:16 <guillomovitch> we'll have a cost estimation for each specific case second 20:37:30 <rindolf> FAAC is an encoder and is non-free. FAAD is the decoder and it is free. 20:37:49 <guillomovitch> #action guillomovitch see with cinerella authors for an exception if needed once we have SFLC answer 20:38:41 <guillomovitch> #agreed let's discuss faac distribution issue later, if it's worth the effort 20:39:11 <ennael> what deadline for all this ? 20:39:24 <guillomovitch> christmas :) ? 20:39:33 <ennael> :) 20:39:44 <tmb> I guess that depends on when we get responses :) 20:39:56 <ennael> well we need to fix a limit for mageia 3 20:40:02 <Solbu> What about , say, a week or two after rindowl get his answers? 20:40:02 <ennael> to avoid last minute integration 20:40:32 <guillomovitch> I guess we're off-limit for mageia 3 20:41:04 <Solbu> guillomovitch: I had the same thought. 20:41:12 <guillomovitch> excepted maybe for the ffmpeg alternative 20:41:26 <guillomovitch> but as Christian said, cinerella was notably instable this way 20:41:40 <ennael> just to give some answer to people and avoid somebody does it 20:41:46 <guillomovitch> the 'full-free software alternative that sucks' 20:42:16 <guillomovitch> I'd say: don't expect a quick solution right now 20:42:25 <Solbu> Doesn't most Free software suck in the beginning? :-)= 20:42:58 <guillomovitch> end of month then 20:43:13 <guillomovitch> we're at beta3 right now, afaik 20:43:25 <tmb> alpha3 20:43:37 <Solbu> Yes. Sounds like a good deadline. 20:43:58 <MrsB> final isn't until march next year 20:44:10 <guillomovitch> there won't be much side effect for software not present in the distribution right now anyway 20:45:05 <guillomovitch> #agreed let's consider 1 december as deadline for mageia3 integration 20:45:33 <Solbu> If we're done with faac for todays meeting, I need to go. 20:45:56 <guillomovitch> I think so 20:46:09 <guillomovitch> next point ? 20:46:11 <rindolf> Solbu: bye. 20:46:13 <ennael> is it all ok about that topic ? 20:46:26 <ennael> guillomovitch: can you sum up all this in a mail for -dev ML ? 20:46:30 <guillomovitch> sure 20:46:37 <ennael> thanks 20:46:50 <ennael> #action guillomovitch will mail -dev to explain these steps 20:47:46 <Solbu> see you later tonight. Enjoy the rest of the meeting. :-)= 20:47:52 <ennael> ok next topic then 20:47:53 * guillomovitch hungry 20:48:06 <ennael> :) 20:48:10 <ennael> #topic Mageia 1 EOL 20:48:10 <tmb> (sounds familiar) 20:48:43 <ennael> so we have a blog post to inform about EOL for Mageia 1 20:48:54 <ennael> thanks to tmb 20:49:06 <ennael> we plan to have also one in 2 weeks to remind it 20:50:07 <ennael> http://www.mageia.org/fr/support/ is now up to date 20:50:28 <ennael> Mageia 1 will be supported until December 1st, 2012. 20:52:16 <ennael> any comment on this ? 20:53:03 <DavidWHodgins> Some people would prefer to have Mageia 1 supported at least until 3 is out. 20:53:04 <MrsB> \o/ 20:53:12 * MrsB isn't one 20:53:19 <ennael> DavidWHodgins: decision has been taken there will be no change 20:53:26 <DavidWHodgins> Ok 20:53:37 <ennael> it's also a question of work load for QA 20:54:11 <DavidWHodgins> Which is why I personally am glad to see it ending. :-) 20:54:57 <ennael> Qa is already adding comment on Bugzilla to warn people about EOL 20:55:24 <MrsB> bugsquad 20:56:20 <ennael> oups sorry 20:56:26 <rindolf> I'm fine with terminating support for Mag 1. 20:57:20 <Luigi12_work> :o( 20:57:38 <ennael> ok 20:57:50 <ennael> #topic Mageia 3 alpha 3 release 20:58:40 * coling is late sorry... feel free to ping me after if there was anything I was needed for. 20:58:41 <AL13N> (i would prefer mageia 2 or mageia 3 to be LTS'd) 20:58:52 <AL13N> (not mga1) 20:59:12 <ennael> so alpha3 isos tests are in progress 20:59:45 <tmb> AL13N: so join QA to help out 21:00:00 <ennael> MrsB: want to give a sum up about current tests ? 21:00:20 <MrsB> can do if you like 21:00:29 <ennael> thanks :) 21:00:49 <MrsB> We're now on the first build of the ISOs. 21:01:08 <MrsB> We've found a small number of big bugs 21:01:20 <MrsB> Libroeffice missing due to build problems 21:01:34 <MrsB> some people have had problems with X starting at boot 21:01:47 <MrsB> some gnome problems 21:01:58 <MrsB> overall it's looking pretty good 21:02:15 <MrsB> I believe there are new ISOs due tonight/tomorrow 21:02:51 <MrsB> If you'd like to get involved with the testing please contact myself, ennael or tmb 21:02:59 <MrsB> :) 21:03:17 <ennael> thanks MrsB :) 21:03:23 <MrsB> np 21:03:24 <ennael> tmb: anything else to add there ? 21:04:51 <ennael> (except pizza :p) 21:05:03 <tmb> nope, not really. most of the bugs regarding livecds should be somewhat easy solvable by working around a painful urpmi bug 21:06:16 <ennael> ok 21:06:35 <ennael> as a reminder also please guys do not provide major updates while alpha3 is not out 21:06:55 <ennael> or you will be burnt by tmb, QA guys and me :) 21:06:57 <guillomovitch> girls are not affected ? 21:07:04 <AL13N> :-) 21:07:14 <grenoya> \o/ 21:07:20 * guillomovitch will delegate package submission 21:07:21 <ennael> guillomovitch: we try to be kind with them, they are too few :) 21:07:25 <AL13N> i guess the girls won't do it because they know better 21:07:44 <tmb> (or dont know how) 21:07:47 * tmb hides 21:07:56 * ennael slaps tmb 21:08:10 <ennael> #topic Main features review 21:08:22 <ennael> ok let see features there 21:08:30 <ennael> coling: around ? 21:08:43 <coling> ennael, yup 21:08:57 <ennael> want to sum up yours ? 21:09:14 <coling> Well I've forgotten most of them :) 21:09:28 <ennael> tsss 21:09:30 <coling> But in terms of usrmove, the installer should now run the conversion. 21:09:49 <coling> I still need to work on the "uprmi version" for upgrades that are run that way. 21:10:04 <coling> There did seem to be a bug in the installer however 21:10:27 <guillomovitch> so the feature is: the upgrade won't fuck up your system ? 21:10:30 <coling> For me I couldn't get it to mount my partitions on upgrade, so my separate /usr was never mounted and thus the conversion (and any install) failed. 21:10:47 <coling> guillomovitch, in theory.... ;p 21:11:15 <guillomovitch> interesting 21:11:46 <guillomovitch> anyway, my time allowance has run over, I've to leave 21:11:55 <guillomovitch> have a fine meeting 21:12:11 <coling> guillomovitch, but like I say this only applies to a net install via the installer at present. I'll try and get the mga2 version of the upgrade procedure ready this week/weekend. 21:12:30 <coling> Although as this does not technically depend on the isos etc. this shouldn't interfere. 21:12:53 <coling> In terms of "installer users systemd" feature, I've simply not had time to do this. 21:13:24 <coling> I still would like to do this eventually, but unless I get a spurt of development and have it ready for the betas I doubt it'll happen! 21:14:54 <ennael> ok people any other feedback on features ? 21:15:06 <coling> The boot sans ramdisk is also not really supported by the tools yet, and I've not even tested the tmb kernel that Thomas kindly sorted out to include some essential modules. I will likely do that during the final testing phases. It would be nice to get it working although it will need manual intervention to configure. 21:15:48 <tmb> well, you can boot without ramdisk even if tools creates one for you :) 21:16:22 <tmb> (not with core kernel, only with -tmb kernel for now) 21:18:29 <Luigi12_work> interesting. IIRC the mdv version of the installer is still sysvinit 21:18:37 <coling> Indeed - still need to take it for a spin myself tho' :) 21:19:04 <coling> Luigi12_work, ours is not systemd yet either (tho' I think it was a custom init, not sysvinit) 21:19:27 <coling> Luigi12_work, as I mentioned above, I've simply not had time to look into this properly. 21:19:35 <Luigi12_work> yeah I imagine that will be a lot of work 21:19:48 <coling> Luigi12_work, probably not a crazy amount to be honest. 21:20:04 <coling> Just a bit fiddly and a lot of regenerations and reboots. 21:21:37 <rindolf> coling: can these be done with VMs? 21:21:55 <coling> rindolf, yeah, that's how I usually do it. 21:22:13 <rindolf> coling: OK. 21:22:34 <coling> rindolf, normally when messing with stage2 I just have a vm in a state that just about to download/execute stage2, but this particular work will also involved a new stage1 21:23:26 <coling> (i then just restore the vm to the snapshot and it's ready to go with the stage2 bit again - saves a lot of time - sorry kinda messed up the order of my description there...) 21:27:07 <rindolf> coling: OK. 21:29:57 <ennael> ok anything else for coling ? :) 21:30:41 <coling> ennael, not from me. 21:30:53 <ennael> ok 21:30:56 <MrsB> 3 cheers :) 21:31:09 <ennael> as a side note tv is working on implementing grub2 in installer 21:31:29 <ennael> still not ready so it will not be done for alpha3 21:31:38 <ennael> he will try to finalize it as soon as possible 21:31:56 <Luigi12_work> I think rosa has done work on that, so that might help 21:31:59 <ennael> also working on managing non-free repository in classical installer 21:32:13 <ennael> Luigi12_work: we had a look indeed but very few has been done 21:32:26 <Luigi12_work> ahh bummer :o( 21:32:31 <ennael> yep 21:32:35 <MrsB> there could be big changes then for beta 1 21:32:58 <ennael> could be as tv was overloaded these last weeks 21:33:23 <ennael> on my side I've started working on auto_install documentation 21:34:19 <AL13N> now that is a nice feature 21:34:27 <AL13N> definately something i can use 21:34:53 <ennael> anybody wants to add something ? 21:35:03 <ennael> we will ask trhough ML for all other features 21:35:17 <AL13N> well, i've started that refresh button thingie, but i don't have much time for it 21:35:27 <AL13N> not sure if i'm gonna make it in time 21:35:31 <ennael> hurry up :) 21:35:39 <AL13N> myeah :-/ 21:35:52 <AL13N> need to do all the xen security patches first 21:36:00 <ennael> tmb: wants to add something ? 21:36:02 <MrsB> what refresh button thingie is that ? 21:36:02 <Luigi12_work> all 50 of them :O 21:36:20 <AL13N> i think the problem is that for alot of us that we are working on packages and whatnot and we don't have much time for features 21:36:29 <Luigi12_work> yeah :o( 21:36:48 <anaselli> well apanel is on svn 21:36:54 <tmb> well, the "forgotten" mga3 rebuild will be kicked off after alpha3... 21:36:54 <AL13N> MrsB: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:DiskDrakeRedesign 21:36:57 <Luigi12_work> cool anaselli 21:37:04 <anaselli> but does not so mutch at the moment 21:37:04 <MrsB> thanks 21:37:14 <Luigi12_work> tmb: wow, it's really gonna happen 21:37:23 <tmb> coling: you wanted some rpmlint rules in plave before that iirc ? 21:37:24 <AL13N> and i also want to help with #2137 21:37:25 * Luigi12_work prepares for lots of work fixing packages 21:37:25 * anaselli is arrived late :) 21:37:50 <Luigi12_work> tmb: we should also update ppl and cloog-ppl before the mass rebuild 21:37:53 <coling> tmb, Oh yeah... where does one add rpm lint rules? 21:38:01 <coling> tmb, the rules I would like: 21:38:11 <coling> 1. no files in /var/run or /run 21:38:34 * coling forgets 2. It'll come to me :) 21:38:50 <Luigi12_work> 3. profit! 21:38:51 <tmb> coling: rpmlint-mageia-rules 21:39:07 <coling> tmb, cool, I'll try and learn what to do in a way that won't break the BS :D 21:39:32 <coling> I guess it would need pushed to infra anyway, so I'm sure it could be reviewed appropriately first :) 21:39:32 <AL13N> Luigi12_work: :-) 21:39:47 <coling> Or does it "just work" if pushed to cauldron? 21:40:00 <AL13N> iinm infra has different repos 21:40:10 <tmb> coling: nope, it needs to be pushed to infra, and explicitly installed 21:40:13 <MrsB> anaell congratulations on getting that done 21:40:21 <MrsB> anaselli: even^ 21:40:42 <tmb> coling: what about the libexec macro ? 21:40:59 <leuhmanu> btw, whould be good to start reviewing release blockers bugs (for people which are on these bugs) if you have some time (don't know if it's the right topic if not sorry) 21:41:02 <anaselli> MrsB: well i worked more to libyui, and added some buttons :) the most is done bu tuxta 21:41:23 <MrsB> i congratulated tuxta earlier :) 21:41:35 <coling> tmb, ahh yes. Did we ever decide on what libexec should be? 21:41:36 <anaselli> but we need modules now to start having an usable tool 21:41:47 * coling remembers the discussion but not the outcome. 21:41:59 <coling> Did we think /usr/lib on both arches? 21:42:33 <anaselli> MrsB: then you've forgot pasmatt :) 21:42:35 <tmb> /usr/libexec was considered arch cleanest :) 21:42:52 <tmb> (since it already exists) 21:42:56 <MrsB> that won't do :\ congratulations pasmatt too :) 21:43:17 <anaselli> :) 21:43:24 <coling> tmb, OK, that works for me. 21:43:41 <coling> tmb, I suspect that could cause a few build failures :) 21:44:44 <tmb> yep, can be, but that's good to get done before full rebuild so all packages get "checked" 21:45:12 <pasmatt> MrsB anaselli you're very kind, tnx :) 21:46:24 <ennael> antyhing else? 21:46:41 <tmb> nope 21:47:12 <ennael> ok 21:47:17 <ennael> #topic Review of pending security updates 21:47:24 <ennael> Luigi12_work: your turn \o/ 21:47:37 <Luigi12_work> https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/2012-November/019745.html is the most recent list 21:47:39 <[mbot> [ [Mageia-dev] Security updates - help needed (status update) ] 21:47:41 <ennael> as a reminder Luigi12_work sent a mail 21:47:42 <ennael> https://www.mageia.org/pipermail/mageia-dev/2012-November/019745.html 21:47:47 <Luigi12_work> otrs is fixed, the rest there are still relevant 21:47:48 <ennael> raaa too late 21:48:24 <Luigi12_work> basically we have not much time to fix any relevant to mga1, or they'll be vulnerable forever. Also some are still relevant in cauldron, so we really should fix before mga3. 21:48:45 <Luigi12_work> I've done as many myself as I could, so really need help/input to finish the others. 21:49:38 <Luigi12_work> if anyone has any questions, don't hesistate to ask 21:50:01 <ennael> ok 21:51:56 <ennael> I will mail -dev about mentoring (avaialble mentors and apprentices) 21:53:53 <ennael> anything else to add ? 21:54:09 <sander85> to this topic or in general? 21:54:18 <ennael> both 21:54:44 <sander85> i have question about mga1 status on mirrors after eol 21:54:56 <ennael> wait 21:55:11 <ennael> #topic mga1 status on mirrors after EOL 21:55:19 <ennael> tmb: any answer about this ? 21:55:26 <sander85> are we going to have some archive? 21:55:52 <tmb> the idea is to keep it online, but frozen (even testing/backlorts medias) 21:56:17 <Luigi12_work> shouldn't testing be cleared once the last updates are pushed? 21:56:46 <tmb> Luigi12_work: yes, that will happend 21:57:27 <sander85> i think we should consider moving it to some other folder as well, not all mirrors can take it all, archive or something like that woulde be much easier to exclude imho 21:57:29 <tmb> there is no real need to move it to any "archive" status imho 21:58:04 <Luigi12_work> Mandriva had an /old or something for really old versions since they added up over time, but it's way too early for that 21:59:15 <tmb> yeah, we dont have so big distro tree anyway, so I think we can keep it as-is for now, unless mirror admins start to complain 21:59:36 <sander85> ok, sounds good to me 22:00:27 <ennael> anything else ? 22:00:56 <tmb> and if we do move it, we must do it with long notice before so mirror admins are ready (those that subscribe to the mirrors-announce ml that is) 22:00:58 * Luigi12_work hugs mga1 for dear life 22:01:40 <ennael> tmb: yep will avoid some hungry guys :) 22:02:21 <tmb> s/hu/a/ .. 22:02:21 * AL13N is hungry 22:02:31 <ennael> erf... 22:02:38 * ennael is hungry too :) 22:02:43 <ennael> so let's close this meetinr 22:02:44 <tmb> nothing else from me 22:02:45 <ennael> g 22:02:55 <ennael> thanks all for attending 22:03:14 <ennael> #endmeeting