19:11:50 <ennael> #startmeeting 19:11:50 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Wed Jul 18 19:11:50 2012 UTC. The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:11:50 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:11:51 <erzulie> [ MeetBot - Debian Wiki ] 19:11:53 <ennael> hi all 19:11:58 <sebsebseb> hi 19:12:06 <rindolf> Hi. 19:12:36 <ennael> ok first topic 19:12:39 <ennael> #topic 19:12:44 <ennael> argh 19:12:55 * ennael needs to change brain and fingers :) 19:13:07 <ennael> #topic Mageia 3 features 19:13:43 <ennael> so 19:14:02 <ennael> Here is the list https://wiki.mageia.org/en/FeatureMageia3_Review#Refused_features 19:14:02 <erzulie> [ FeatureMageia3 Review - Mageia wiki ] 19:14:20 <ennael> we sorted the first lists in 4 categories 19:14:44 <ennael> first one is a list of complete features, meaning no information is missing and ready to be started or already started 19:14:49 <malo> hi all, sorry I'm late. 19:15:05 <ennael> second one is a list of features complete but missing resources 19:15:24 <ennael> meaning it may be started depending on people who will work on it 19:15:53 <ennael> third one is a list of features that needs to be completed 19:16:00 <sebsebseb> malo: hi 19:16:01 <ennael> and finally last one about refused features 19:16:24 <ennael> for many reasons: duplicated, already refused in previous discussion... 19:16:42 <doktor5000__> may i throw in a question? 19:16:46 <ennael> sure 19:17:31 <doktor5000__> what about network tools consolidation, meaning net_applet VS networkmanager? as this gave quite some issues to end-users ... ? 19:17:56 <ennael> is it listed in features ? 19:18:10 <doktor5000__> i mean, net_applet is not really under active development, and networkmanager has an active upstream and is widely used 19:18:26 <ennael> I already had many troubles with NM 19:18:33 <ennael> but it's not really a topic here 19:18:44 <ennael> you should first mail -dev or open a feature 19:18:51 <doktor5000__> nope, not listed in features, just a question 19:19:08 <doktor5000__> ok, i'll try to, question answered 19:19:12 <ennael> :) 19:19:23 <ennael> hard to discuss this here 19:19:26 <doktor5000__> :/ 19:19:37 <doktor5000__> comprehensible ... 19:19:51 <ennael> I mean it's better to have many people as it's a big question 19:20:31 <ennael> it's not "yes" or "no" ok ? 19:21:25 * ennael hopes she did not kill doktor5000__ 19:21:34 <coincoin> hard not to answer "yes" or "no" to ennael question :p 19:21:41 <ennael> :) 19:21:46 <doktor5000__> yep, comprehensible as i said, just go on 19:21:50 <ennael> ok :) 19:22:02 <doktor5000__> and no, i'm hard to kill - as most zombies ;) 19:22:11 <ennael> phew :) 19:22:25 <MrsB> he's 5000 years old 19:22:46 <ennael> ok any question, comment on features ? 19:22:47 <doktor5000__> but you know, zombies still fear fire and stakes and things like that :P 19:23:25 <MrsB> this is the final finalised final list now ennael? 19:23:46 <ennael> well features can still move from one list to another 19:23:52 <MrsB> ok ty 19:23:55 <ennael> depending on resources mainly 19:24:18 * coling is here too just so you know :) 19:24:23 <ennael> :) 19:24:29 <ennael> coling: want some more work ? :) 19:24:37 <ennael> we have a nice list ready :) 19:24:41 <coling> ennael, no thanks not right now :) 19:24:50 * coling is busy doing the usrmove stuff. 19:24:51 <ennael> MrsB: is this answer ok ? 19:25:04 <MrsB> yes, thanks. Perfect. 19:25:08 <ennael> ok 19:25:26 <ennael> btw we will publish a blog post to explain the process and this final page 19:27:34 <rindolf> ennael: great. 19:27:37 <ennael> #action list of final features is now ready on https://wiki.mageia.org/en/FeatureMageia3_Review 19:27:38 <erzulie> [ FeatureMageia3 Review - Mageia wiki ] 19:27:49 <ennael> #action blog post is planned to explain it 19:27:57 <ennael> anything to add on this ? 19:28:23 <ennael> of course all developments should be implemented during alpha stages 19:28:48 <ennael> can we switch to next topic ? 19:30:14 <MrsB> everybody's reading :D 19:30:24 <ennael> speak ! I'm feeling alone :) 19:30:26 <malo> MrsB: yes :-) 19:30:26 <ennael> ok 19:30:33 <ennael> #topic Avoid orphan commits in svn 19:30:46 <ennael> maybe title is a bit mysterious :) 19:31:06 <ennael> so it seems we have quite a lot of commits pending in svn 19:31:12 <ennael> and not being submitted 19:31:44 <ennael> It may be hard to manage when we switch to new stable release (it means commits were done during freeze) 19:32:13 <ennael> or sometimes make life quite hard when another packager is updating a package and has to manage errors due to old commits 19:32:50 <ennael> don't know if I'm clear enough 19:32:51 <coling> I think the freeze issue is quite hard to control anyway. 19:33:09 <spturtle> hasn't this come up before for stable release forking? That's just a technical issue, fork the right svn release 19:33:23 <ennael> well in this case yes 19:33:25 <coling> Didn't tmb have a script to do create the updates tree from the latest markrelease? 19:33:30 <coling> (or soemthing similar) 19:33:39 <ennael> this has to be checked 19:34:01 <coling> But yeah dealing with not yet submitted stuff when you're doing big rebuilds for new libmajors etc. is a pain :( 19:34:21 <ennael> coling: and some are pending for weeks 19:34:34 <ennael> and not because of freeze 19:34:45 <coling> Indeed. 19:35:05 <malo> sometimes it's pending because of a build problem that the packagers can't fix immediately 19:35:16 * coling can't think of a nice way to check for that tho' (other than a script that checks everything maybe once a day) 19:35:53 <ennael> maybe once a day is too much but at least once a month or every 2 or 3 weeks 19:36:22 <ennael> malo: then this will be the answer given by the packager and maybe it will be a good way to get some help 19:37:43 <malo> ennael: ok. Sounds reasonable. 19:38:20 <coling> Yup 19:38:44 * MrsB senses more updates coming 19:39:09 <ennael> #action run a script to check old svn commits every 2 or 4 weeks to check all unsubmitted commits 19:39:17 <ennael> MrsB: this rather happens in cauldron 19:39:42 <MrsB> we can handle it :) (not really) 19:39:50 <ennael> anything else on that topic 19:39:51 <ennael> ? 19:39:55 <malo> if we were using git, it'd be easier to manage the work in progress situation 19:41:17 <malo> I mean when packages are not submitted because of unfinished work on them 19:41:23 <ennael> sur 19:41:24 <ennael> e 19:41:39 <ennael> it has been asked but it needs some work on build system also 19:41:46 <tmb> well, one can also create a svn branch if needed 19:41:47 <ennael> so a question for sysadmins rather 19:42:29 <malo> tmb: how does svn branching affects the forking of cauldron? 19:43:19 <malo> ennael: ok. 19:43:44 <wally_> btw, branching for mga2 was done from wrong revision :\ 19:43:54 <tmb> as we fork /current, anything above that wont follow to release tree 19:45:07 <wally_> there's no dir for latest release in updates/2/foo/releases/x.y.z/ 19:45:26 <malo> tmb: ok. 19:46:29 <coling> One other solution for freeze periods was to implement a pre-commit check which bans most users rights to commit. Users who need to push a change must request a "commit token" from a freeze buster user. That token can then be used in the commit message to allow the pre-commit check to pass. 19:46:48 <coling> This approach prevents people committing stuff that won't ultimately be pushed but it might slow down the process. 19:47:04 <coling> It should, however, be quite simple to implement. 19:47:30 <ennael> well like freezes for submission 19:47:44 <ennael> but it's for a short period 19:48:03 <coling> Yeah. With this approach you could pretty much NOT freeze submission. 19:48:17 <ennael> ok 19:48:18 <coling> As if it's in svn it *should* be built. 19:48:27 <coling> It just changes where the block exists. 19:48:44 <ennael> #action apply freezes on svn commits like we do for packages submissions 19:49:55 <ennael> anything els on this . 19:50:02 <ennael> anything else on this? 19:51:24 <coling> not for me. 19:51:37 <malo> nope 19:51:46 <ennael> I forgot one topic on my side about arm 19:51:57 <ennael> #topic short review about arm support 19:52:24 <ennael> so as you may know rtp is working on rebuilding cauldron for arm 19:52:44 <ennael> he is at the moment working on a script for automatic rebuilds 19:52:52 <ennael> and test it on x86_64 for now 19:53:27 <ennael> so he took the opportunity to fix some packaging bugs and may also ask packagers to fix some 19:53:34 <coling> Cool. 19:53:41 <tmb> didn't blino say iurt had that capability already ? 19:53:46 <ennael> then arm will be rebuilt 19:53:56 <ennael> I must say I did not check that point 19:54:07 <coling> Regarding mass rebuilds.... I know there is one planned for post glibc (which is now landing I believe) 19:54:23 <coling> tmb, can I just request that we hold off on a full mass-rebuild for a week or two? 19:54:33 <coling> I should be done with the usrmove stuff by this weekend if all goes well. 19:54:41 <ennael> yep and this script can also be used for regular rebuilds 19:55:22 <MrsB> Are we planning on releasing a fully supported arm build? If so how will we QA it? 19:55:24 <ennael> I guess the thing missing is sending failed builds to packagers 19:55:28 <tmb> coling: I see no problem with that 19:55:45 <coling> tmb, cool, thanks :) 19:55:51 <ennael> MrsB: for now it's still "experimental" 19:56:01 <MrsB> ok phew :) 19:56:03 * coling would be tempted to add a few extra lint rules too... 19:56:08 <ennael> yep 19:56:28 <tmb> one important thing about arm support... 19:56:47 <malo> coling: that would be a good thing 19:57:05 <ennael> tmb: yep ? 19:57:24 <tmb> packagers should not blindly drop arm related patches just because they dont apply when they update something. 19:57:39 <tmb> instead rediff, or ask for help 19:57:43 <ennael> yes 19:57:48 <blino> tmb: ennael : yes, iurt already has support for rebuild packages for an arch, and I think we told rtp 19:57:49 <ennael> and it already happened some times 19:58:05 <ennael> blino: but as I said I did not check with him 19:58:11 <ennael> and he is not around tonight 19:58:56 <coincoin> yes but the main issue is that on ARM, we need to shedule things as it make more and more time than on x86. So, rtp is doing something like "building each monday" for example 19:59:16 <ennael> #action check packagers do not delete arm patches because they don't apply 19:59:43 <blino> coincoin: that's just about adding a iurt command in a crontab :) 20:00:19 <doktor5000__> ennael: can we get rtp to give some status update how far the arm port is 20:00:24 <doktor5000__> whoops 20:00:27 <coincoin> blino: perhaps, but IIRC rtp have a lot of "new requires" for the ARM BS, better to ask him I think. 20:00:28 <coincoin> rtp: ! 20:00:44 <doktor5000__> ennael: can we get rtp to give some status update how far the arm port is usable yet, please? 20:01:01 <ennael> doktor5000__: If I'm not wrong he is starting bootstrap 20:01:15 <ennael> but we will ask him more information about that point 20:01:23 <malo> the more rtp communicates about the arm port, the more packagers will remember that it exists 20:01:35 <tmb> blino: one thing... I guess we need a scheduler for iurt lazy builds since we have 2 arm nodes 20:02:30 <doktor5000__> ennael: or how far it is from, say installing a basesystem-minimal yet? as i think he already did some images already, and his mirror seems quite big yet for cauldron 20:02:53 <blino> tmb: probably in a second step, unless someone has time to add "lazy support" in emi/ulri (which should be quite simple) 20:03:31 <ennael> doktor5000__: you can also ask him directly :) 20:03:55 <MrsB> what does 'starting bootstrap' mean please? 20:03:57 <ennael> If I remember well he did not bite anybody... for now 20:04:08 <ennael> MrsB: 2 sec I give you a link 20:04:14 <MrsB> thanks 20:04:14 <coincoin> MrsB: it means that he just starts the bootstrap 20:04:16 * coincoin runs :p 20:04:23 <MrsB> thanks coincoin :P 20:04:31 <tmb> blino: or maybe set up icecream on both arm nodes and let them share the workload 20:04:35 <ennael> MrsB: http://blog.mageia.org/en/2011/02/02/bootstrap-what-bootstrap-i-want-mageia-iso/ 20:04:36 <erzulie> [ Bootstrap? What bootstrap? I want Mageia ISO! | Mageia Blog (English) ] 20:04:49 <ennael> boostrap is explained here 20:04:53 <MrsB> thanks. It's bound to be asked. 20:05:36 <MrsB> so basesystem is really the bootstrap 20:05:57 <ennael> yep part of 20:06:11 <ennael> anything else to add ? 20:06:25 <blino> tmb: could work as well 20:07:13 <coincoin> not for me 20:07:21 <tmb> ennael: nope 20:07:34 <doktor5000__> ennael: well he did not respond yet, CC'ed him on my previous post to -dev ml :( 20:07:45 <doktor5000__> ennael: that's why i'm asking more directly ... 20:07:55 <ennael> doktor5000__: ok we will propose him a beer :) 20:07:55 <blino> ennael: maybe rtp could post a status on -dev? 20:07:56 <coincoin> doktor5000__: try to ping him tomorrow on IRC 20:08:07 <ennael> we will do it tomorrow 20:08:10 <ennael> rtp: don't run 20:08:14 <coincoin> :) 20:08:31 * doktor5000__ will not be available tomorrow, probably :/ 20:08:38 <ennael> well on ML rather 20:08:50 <ennael> ok last topic was proposed by malo 20:09:08 <coincoin> tomorrow, no coffee before he answered your mail! 20:09:11 <coincoin> fear! 20:09:17 <stblack> but how we could QA when it'll be ready? 20:09:31 <ennael> #topic Involvement of packagers in supporting/fixing bugs on stable releases 20:09:38 <ennael> malo: your turn :) 20:09:48 <malo> ennael: thanks :-) 20:10:00 <coincoin> stblack: you will have info at this time (not ready before september so... be patient :)) 20:10:17 <stblack> coincoin: thanks 20:10:30 <malo> this is about something that was talked about recently on several occasions: packagers tend to focus on cauldron 20:11:18 <malo> and not spend much time on investigating/fixing bugs for stable releases. 20:12:23 <malo> Considering our very limited manpower, how can we improve on that situation? 20:12:28 <ennael> which as I say is not very new unfortunatelly 20:12:32 <ennael> said 20:12:59 <malo> ennael: yes. One of the main reasons why I thought this maybe deserved to be discussed :-) 20:13:08 <ennael> yep sure 20:13:30 <AL13N> coling: ping, i've submitted that mariadb, it'll likely finish soon-ish. lemme know if there's any regression or and if it actually fixes your issue. 20:13:48 <ennael> AL13N: meeting in progress 20:13:54 <ennael> nearly finished 20:13:55 <malo> as far as I understand, packagers run mainly cauldron 20:13:57 <AL13N> oh no, sorry, i forgot that there's a meeting /o\ 20:14:15 <malo> QA and users run stable releases 20:14:31 <malo> there is a gap there 20:15:01 <malo> (actually there is another gap: QA is not running cauldron, but it's another topic) 20:15:38 <MrsB> It would be beneficial maybe if we did, we can't really though 20:16:15 <malo> so the question is, whether or not we can recruit new packagers and new QA, how can we improve the maintainance of stable releases 20:16:20 <malo> ? 20:16:21 <tmb> well, the fact that packagers run cauldron is also a "pre QA" as more bugs get solved for final relase too 20:16:23 <DavidWHodgins> I do keep a cauldron image, and check it out a few times every week. 20:18:32 <malo> tmb: I entirely agree. 20:19:18 <malo> I was thinking that having a few bug squashing week-ends might be a good way to motivate people into looking at stable releases issues. 20:19:30 <tmb> yep 20:19:45 <MrsB> there is a list of bugfixes awaiting validation too which might squash a few 20:20:09 <MrsB> we're concentrating on security bugs which doesn't leave much time for the bugfixes 20:20:21 <coling> My general problem is that I only actually run mga-stable on servers and media centres. Any colleagues who run it are no longer in my office so I tend not to see too many issues first hand on stable releases. 20:20:54 <malo> this can be organised in liaison with QA and the bugssquad. And having packagers running stable releases for a week-end can also help QA during that week-end. 20:21:24 <MrsB> run with it malo, see how it goes :) 20:21:33 <malo> I'd just hate to see bugs closed as OLD as in the Mdv times 20:21:43 <ennael> it needs time and people to organize it or it's just wasting time 20:21:51 <malo> ennael: true 20:22:01 <ennael> meaning people available and answering and following 20:22:06 <ennael> just to underline this :) 20:22:35 <MrsB> need to generate some interest first then 20:23:01 <ennael> malo: can you mail -dev about this with a formal proposal? 20:23:16 <malo> ennael: I can. 20:23:43 <MrsB> you're welcome to come to qa meeting tmrw too malo 20:24:01 <malo> MrsB: I'll pass by 20:24:21 <MrsB> i'll mention it anyway 20:24:24 <malo> ennael: you're not giving me a little #action? ;-) 20:24:37 <ennael> #action malo will mail -dev about organizing days for bugs hunting in stable releases 20:24:51 * ennael is reading in heads :) 20:25:05 <MrsB> is it bug hunting or bug fixing? 20:25:06 <malo> :) 20:25:15 <ennael> #undo 20:25:15 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Action object at 0x8386b8c> 20:25:26 <ennael> #action malo will mail -dev about organizing days for bugs fixing in stable releases 20:25:33 <malo> MrsB: bug fixing. 20:25:44 <malo> ennael: thanks 20:25:46 <MrsB> :) 20:26:03 <tmb> hunting is easy... fixing is harder :) 20:26:07 <ennael> :) 20:26:19 <ennael> anything else ? other topic ? 20:26:26 <tmb> not for me 20:26:35 <MrsB> none here, thankyou 20:26:38 <malo> ennael: andre is not around, but we need new apprentices 20:26:49 <ennael> yep 20:26:53 <grenoya> ennael: about how to have some ? 20:27:28 <ennael> yes 20:27:47 <malo> when misc was here he would push people to adopt packages. We have currently almost 2000 unmaintained packages ... 20:27:48 <ennael> but before looking for apprentices we need to have mentors ready to help 20:27:53 <malo> ennael: we have 20:28:03 <ennael> who ? when ? where ? :) 20:28:09 <malo> rindolf even sent a mail to -dev to propose his services 20:28:17 * MrsB saw that 20:28:19 * rindolf is guilty as charged. 20:28:33 <rindolf> I'm willing to mentor people. 20:28:39 <ennael> wait 20:28:46 <malo> #mageia-mentoring has been almost dead for weeks 20:28:48 <ennael> #topic look for new apprentices 20:28:57 <grenoya> i have a padawan since one month (but lake of disponibility -> nothing done yet) 20:29:14 <ennael> would be nice to identify mentors first 20:29:32 <ennael> we lost apprentices some months ago because mentors were lacking 20:29:57 <malo> I suspect many currently registered apprentices are missing, with already registered mentors not effectively mentoring. 20:30:28 <ennael> so we need to clean these lists 20:30:37 <ennael> somebody volunteer for this ? 20:30:44 <malo> andre was supposed to do it 20:30:51 <doktor5000__> i'd like to mentor, but me free time currently tells me something differnt would be better and more honest -> suspend my packaging activities nearly altogether until i can spare more time for that again :/ 20:31:13 <ennael> it's better not to propose being a mentor if you have no time 20:31:24 <doktor5000__> totally busy with dayjob and doing supoort and helping with forum organisation 20:31:51 <doktor5000__> ennael: maybe you have misunderstood, i did not propose actually :/ just told some even worse news 20:32:05 <ennael> yep I saw that 20:32:14 <rindolf> I can mentor people. 20:32:20 <ennael> but it was a more general sentence not for you only :) 20:32:44 <ennael> ok I can start cleaning mentoring process (mentors/apprentices) 20:33:11 <malo> ennael: maybe some pinging is needed :-) 20:33:16 * ennael will take her best matches and will ask people in list 20:33:49 <ennael> #action ennael will ping registered mentors and apprentices to have an uptodate status 20:33:57 <ennael> malo: is that ok ? 20:34:10 <malo> ennael: yes 20:34:18 <MrsB> big long matches! 20:34:31 <ennael> :) 20:34:39 <ennael> ok anything else ? 20:34:42 <ennael> questions ? 20:34:43 <malo> QA was able to recruit a few people in a few weeks by a bit MrsB noise 20:35:05 <ennael> everybody is frightened by MrsB that's why :) 20:35:05 <malo> maybe some ennael noise would be helpful to get new apprentices :P 20:35:15 <grenoya> ennael: maybe i can explain how i find my padawan ? 20:35:15 <MrsB> a few yes. We had alot of interest but not many stayed 20:35:28 * MrsB isn't allthat scary :( 20:35:40 <malo> MrsB: same with apprentices unfortunately 20:35:50 <ennael> sure and soon averybody will see you are a real human being :) 20:36:02 <MrsB> now that will be scary :D 20:36:10 <ennael> grenoya: we can see that after meeting ? 20:36:18 <stblack> MrsB: I'll try to do more QA work ;-) 20:36:25 <grenoya> ennael: it was to explain to others :) 20:36:26 <MrsB> maybe pick a packager to do the same? 20:36:34 <ennael> grenoya: oh go now then 20:36:38 <MrsB> thanks stblack \o/ 20:36:43 <coincoin> grenoya: you sleep with him! :D 20:36:48 <ennael> coincoin: ! 20:36:55 <grenoya> coincoin: no ! 20:37:00 <ennael> grenoya: your turn then we will stop the meeting 20:37:11 <ennael> before we cannot control it anymore 20:37:16 <coincoin> :) 20:37:43 <grenoya> i was at "Solution Linux" at the booth, just explaining how a distribution is made, just that 20:38:08 <grenoya> but this year (in france) we were not many the all the booths 20:38:28 <grenoya> packagers, must put their nose outside and meet poeple irl :) 20:38:37 <coincoin> :) 20:38:42 * AL13N doesn't like the scary outside 20:38:44 <Luigi12_work> what's outside? 20:38:51 * Luigi12_work hears the rumbling of thunder outside right now 20:38:58 <MrsB> you're not allowed outside Luigi12_work :P 20:39:08 <Luigi12_work> MrsB: OK :o) 20:39:13 <ennael> ok 20:39:20 <Luigi12_work> except to go for a run 20:39:21 <ennael> can we close the meeting now ? 20:39:26 <Luigi12_work> just not in the thunder 20:39:28 <Luigi12_work> yep 20:39:33 <AL13N> k 20:39:35 <ennael> thanks all for attending 20:39:41 <malo> ennael: thanks 20:39:42 <ennael> #endmeeting