19:10:15 <ennael> #startmeeting 19:10:15 <Inigo_Montoya> Meeting started Wed Jun 6 19:10:15 2012 UTC. The chair is ennael. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 19:10:15 <Inigo_Montoya> Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic. 19:10:16 <erzulie> [ MeetBot - Debian Wiki ] 19:10:18 <ennael> hi all 19:10:26 <sebsebseb> hi 19:11:10 <ennael> #topic 19:11:16 <ennael> erf 19:11:25 <ennael> this meeting is going to be long :) 19:11:34 <sebsebseb> ok 19:11:37 <ennael> #topic post-mortem review 19:11:49 <ennael> so thanks guys who added some notes there 19:12:04 <ennael> as a reminder: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Mageia2_Postmortem#Packagers 19:12:05 <erzulie> [ Mageia2 Postmortem - Mageia wiki ] 19:12:36 <ennael> so basically topics are planning 19:12:55 <ennael> jq asked to be able to push some packages a bit later 19:13:11 <ennael> we will have to check this depending on upstream projects planning 19:13:57 <ennael> one other topic is about getting more packagers, we will see that later with mentoring 19:14:23 <ennael> one topic is about late commits of new features and bug fixes 19:15:01 <ennael> what we saw is most release critical bugs were fixed 3 weeks before release 19:15:19 <ennael> while some of them were in bugzilla since much longer 19:15:43 <ennael> so again fixing bugs vs updating to new versions 19:15:59 <anaselli> ennael: imo that was because we start an indeep study of that also during the meeting... 19:16:13 <ennael> ? 19:16:24 * coling is late sorry. 19:16:30 <ennael> hi coling 19:16:30 <rindolf> coling: hi. 19:16:34 <anaselli> i mean last three weeks we spent time to read and read again them 19:16:50 <sebsebseb> yeah hi coling 19:16:52 <anaselli> and looking into them helped also to start fixing 19:16:54 <ennael> well it's just a shame people wait for a mail to work on fixing bug 19:17:07 <ennael> so we will have to start this much sooner 19:17:11 <sebsebseb> coling: not missed that much 19:17:19 <ennael> and QA will be implied for this 19:18:06 <AL13N> but QA is small 19:18:28 <anaselli> ennael: true, it's just what i think has happened, not what is the best to reach more bug fixing ;) 19:18:34 <ennael> this is not an answer AL13N 19:18:47 <ennael> and not your business if you don't join QA team :) 19:18:53 <ennael> it's a QA job 19:18:59 <ennael> and QA team is growing 19:19:05 <sebsebseb> someone wanted to join marketing today, I got him to join other teams as well such as QA :) 19:19:05 <AL13N> that's good 19:19:15 <MrsB> AL13N: most welcome to join :) 19:19:20 * AL13N hides 19:19:24 <MrsB> lol 19:19:42 * AL13N needs to keep his big mouth shut 19:19:44 <ennael> ok anything else to add on post mortem ? 19:19:56 <AL13N> no 19:20:09 <ennael> #info planning will be enforce especially during freezes to focus on bug fixes 19:20:29 <ennael> #undo 19:20:29 <Inigo_Montoya> Removing item from minutes: <MeetBot.items.Info object at 0x847596c> 19:20:33 <ennael> #info planning will be enforced especially during freezes to focus on bug fixes 19:20:47 <AL13N> maybe we can also restrict new packages during freezes 19:21:03 <ennael> AL13N: the thing is if we say "we can't do things because we are not enough nothing will happen" 19:21:13 <ennael> and see even QA team is growing now :) 19:21:18 <AL13N> ok 19:21:21 <ennael> MrsB is using guns to get new people 19:21:23 <ennael> hum 19:21:30 <MrsB> yep, anything goes 19:21:31 <sebsebseb> I got the latest new person into QA :) 19:21:33 <anaselli> bah it's an old story no new packages no new bugs 19:21:39 <ennael> tsss 19:21:41 <ennael> ok 19:21:43 <Kharec> hi all 19:21:44 <anaselli> but often neither old one fixed 19:21:55 <AL13N> ok, so, next topic then? 19:21:59 <Kharec> Sorry, I'm late. 19:22:03 <ennael> #topic collaboration policy 19:22:07 <MrsB> hi Kharec 19:22:15 <ennael> so here is a tricky topic 19:22:27 <ennael> coling: want to introduce it ? 19:22:33 <coling> ennael, sure. 19:22:39 <coling> OK, so for some backgrouns: 19:22:43 <coling> background* 19:23:15 <coling> Since the fork from Mandriva, we have obviously carried on developing the various tools: drakx* draknetcenter etc. 19:23:44 <coling> I think it's relatively uncontroversial to state that we've done a lot of work here. 19:24:11 <coling> Obviously Mandriva folk have done a lot of work too, but I think the majority of changes have come from us (although I will stress I've not done a full analysis yet) 19:24:33 <coling> It become clear some time ago that Mandriva folk have imported a lot of our changes into their SVN. 19:24:42 <AL13N> didn't mandriva stop usin drakx* and uses ROSA apps instead? 19:24:43 <coling> This is, in and of itself not a problem 19:25:10 <coling> However, when importing them, proper credit was not really given in the changelog as to who wrote the patch. 19:25:29 <coling> It did say "Author: tv" or "Author: colin" 19:25:39 <coling> But it made no mention of the Mageia project. 19:25:46 <Kharec> sad :/ 19:25:53 <coling> In later commits the git-svn id was included so the mageia.org domain was included. 19:26:19 <coling> While it is sad, I think it's more due to the limitations of the tools rather than any specific attempt to hide the source. 19:26:48 <coling> And to be completely fair, we have also committed some changes from the Mandriva side which similarly do not credit the source properly, so we are not guilt free. 19:26:50 <ennael> (or also some people do not know anything about collaboration in open source projects) 19:27:23 <coling> So the software aside, we have also noticed several package commits of late on the Mandriva side. 19:27:34 <Kharec> So we have to write a collaboration policy for us and for others? 19:27:37 <coling> These are simply commit messages: "update to x.y.z" 19:27:47 <coling> But they actually just import our spec wholesale. 19:27:55 <coling> Again, without any credit. 19:28:24 <coling> This is almost more upsetting than the software changes as it's clearly a more manual (or scripted) process which could easily give credit. 19:28:38 <coling> So, in order to address this we will do two things: 19:28:52 <coling> 1) We (I) will attempt to convert the software stuff to use git. 19:29:15 <Kharec> maybe a #action ? 19:29:17 <coling> This should make collaboration much easier (both ways) and also provides a very obvious mechanism to maintain proper credit. 19:29:26 <coling> (in a minute) 19:29:31 <Kharec> sorry. 19:30:13 <coling> This will likely take some time, and will have a few manual tweaks in there, but it should be achievable in the nearish future. 19:30:56 <coling> and 2) We will write a Collaboration Policy that will outline the correct behaviour when using other peoples code. 19:31:10 <anaselli> coling: All you've said is true, but i think you cannot force other group to do that, you can just give a policy for us... 19:31:25 <coling> This will cover taking e.g. patches from Fedora packages git, or importing a spec based on a mandriva or fedora rpm etc. 19:31:47 <coling> anaselli, correct. However, if we have such a policy, it can be used to set an example. 19:32:05 <coling> anaselli, I think we have to lead by example rather than just complain. 19:32:09 <ennael> and also you can ask others to do the same as we ourselves did it inside Mageia 19:32:22 <ennael> coling: check :) 19:32:34 <AL13N> cf the thread on cooker 19:32:43 <anaselli> well i believe the example is easier than ask to others 19:33:03 <coling> So I think I've covered the basic points there ennael. anything to add? 19:33:31 <ennael> nope 19:33:32 <anaselli> i will be more careful when i get a patch or a spec somewhere... 19:33:48 <ennael> so policy can be written in coming week I guess 19:33:55 <coling> Yup. 19:34:16 <anaselli> coling: just a silly question 19:34:19 <AL13N> coling: so, plan is that after policy is written to point it out on the cooker thread? 19:34:30 <coling> AL13N, yeah I think that would be best. 19:34:36 <anaselli> if i take a patch from fedora, how can i be sure is it from fedora? 19:35:20 <coling> anaselli, that's a fair point. Most of the time these days they tend to use git formatted patches, and the package history is easy to explore so you can look at the commit logs of the patch too. 19:35:57 <coling> anaselli, All in all we can only credit where we got the patch from. If it was ultimately sourced somewhere else I think this is still OK. 19:36:04 <anaselli> coling: but no one ensures the commiter is the real author... 19:36:24 <anaselli> ok same point then :) 19:36:31 <coling> anaselli, It's more to credit where we got the patch from rather than who wrote it originally. Ideally the patch itself would contain the who. 19:36:34 <ennael> #url https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Collaboration_policy 19:36:35 <erzulie> [ Collaboration policy - Mageia wiki ] 19:37:34 <Solbu> The change to git will be another nice switch, as git is better it many ways, according to those who claim to know the difference. (Like Mr. Torvalds :-)= ) 19:37:34 <Umeaboy> coling: ping 19:37:42 <coling> Umeaboy, meeting in progress, please wait. 19:37:46 <Umeaboy> Uhu. 19:38:00 <ennael> ok anything to add on that topic ? 19:38:07 <ennael> comments questions ? 19:38:23 <coling> ennael, the only thing would be regarding the git conversion itself, we may need to liaise with i18n 19:38:28 <anaselli> let's say we can discuss on mailing list the wiki page :) 19:38:30 <AL13N> no, i think it's only proper and ethical 19:38:42 <ennael> ovitters: yep 19:38:43 <coling> As we may need infrastructure to support it, but this is more an implementation detail. 19:39:17 <anaselli> coling: well i18n can stay on svn in the very first time... 19:39:22 <ennael> so who will write the policy. 19:39:23 <ennael> ? 19:39:29 <ovitters> ennael: ? 19:39:31 <coling> ennael, I can take a first stab. 19:39:39 <ennael> ok 19:39:53 <ennael> then mail -dev to check everything is there 19:40:02 <coling> ACK 19:40:11 <ennael> thanks coling :) 19:40:30 <ennael> now you can give up armor and helmet :) 19:40:37 <anaselli> coling: if you need, call me i will review it or help (less :) ) 19:41:23 <ennael> ok next topic? 19:41:33 <anaselli> ennael: features or backports? :) 19:41:37 <coling> anaselli, thanks :) 19:41:59 <ennael> #topic reminder: Mageia 3 features 19:42:14 <anaselli> coling: but you have to shout ;) 19:42:25 <ennael> so this is just a reminder about features 19:42:41 <ennael> here is the first list 19:42:42 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:ProposedFeatureMageia3 19:42:43 <erzulie> [ Category:ProposedFeatureMageia3 - Mageia wiki ] 19:43:03 <ennael> so please we need to focus on this 19:43:15 <ennael> about 1 week remaining for this 19:43:36 <andre999> I have an idea about isos 19:43:49 <ennael> about isos 19:44:00 <ennael> we will have a discussion about it 19:44:10 <ennael> with packagers, QA, i18n, marcom and so 19:44:20 <ennael> as the current situation is hard to manage 19:44:34 <ennael> so rethink about a precise list of isos, which content... 19:44:49 <ennael> maybe after features are done 19:44:55 <ennael> ok ? 19:45:01 <andre999> i thought of making sort of composite isos -- ok 19:45:23 <ennael> at the moment as I said to marja we have 1 guy = 1 proposal for isos 19:45:31 <ennael> I guess QA will get made quickly :) 19:45:57 <MrsB> qa proposal is 'fewer' iso's :D 19:46:02 <ennael> :) 19:46:09 <ennael> ok any questions on features? 19:46:15 <DavidWHodgins> One live dvd, instead of so many live cds. 19:46:20 <ennael> please 19:46:30 <Solbu> I had an idea earlier today. 19:46:37 <ennael> not now please 19:46:46 <andre999> would it be a good idea to combine all iso ideas on one feature page ? 19:46:53 <ennael> nope 19:46:59 <Solbu> I noticed that there was a dual CD-iso. Wouldn't it make more sens that the dual arch was a DVD? 19:47:01 <ennael> feature is really what we want to do 19:47:20 <ennael> we need first to discuss and then write down feature 19:47:42 <ennael> the thing is packagers are not the only one to thing about that topic 19:48:16 <ennael> ok other questions? 19:48:16 <sebsebseb> ennael: what's the page for adding a feature request? :d 19:48:33 <ennael> ... 19:48:34 <sebsebseb> the link you just gave just been having a look 19:48:41 <anaselli> well i think we need developers also here 19:48:45 <Umeaboy> sebsebseb: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Category:ProposedFeatureMageia3 19:48:46 <erzulie> [ Category:ProposedFeatureMageia3 - Mageia wiki ] 19:48:47 <AL13N> the feature policy page 19:49:00 <ennael> ok 19:49:04 <sebsebseb> Umeaboy: yeah, but it's in categories going to other pages etc 19:49:07 <AL13N> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Features_policy 19:49:08 <erzulie> [ Features policy - Mageia wiki ] 19:49:09 <ennael> #topic backports 19:49:31 <ennael> so we need to move on that subject 19:49:41 <ennael> it was discussed in last QA meeting 19:49:45 <Umeaboy> I've been wishing for backports for a longer time. 19:49:48 <ennael> MrsB: wants to speak ? 19:49:53 <MrsB> Yes if you like 19:50:02 <ennael> give QA position 19:50:37 <Umeaboy> Especially when it comes to keeping updated with hardware-drivers & such. 19:50:37 * tmb read poison 19:51:05 <ennael> :)) 19:51:05 <MrsB> We agreed that it would be OK to open backports. QA would view them as having the lowest possible priority. We have had packages backported into mga1 as updates as they were in mandriva so we have been doing it to some extent already. 19:51:23 <MrsB> We'd ideally like the person requesting the backport to agree to help test it 19:51:30 <Stormi> or find testers 19:51:32 <Umeaboy> Yes. 19:51:43 <ennael> as a reminder 19:51:44 <ennael> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Backports_policy 19:51:45 <erzulie> [ Backports policy - Mageia wiki ] 19:51:58 <Umeaboy> Uuuhm. Perhaps have a minimum of 5 testers to import it as a Backport? 19:51:59 <andre999> like our original proposals for backports 19:52:09 <Stormi> like I said during QA meeting, if backports are slow to validate, it will mechanically incitate users to help testing, if they really want the backports 19:52:09 <ennael> #info QA is ok to work on backports tests with lower priority / updates 19:52:32 <ennael> boklm: around? 19:52:50 <MrsB> could you add info that we'd like the person requesting the backport to help with testing too pls 19:52:50 <boklm> yes 19:53:04 <Solbu> One reason for having backports is to provide pakcages that doesn't exist in current releases. 19:53:10 <AL13N> is it better for the packager to QA test his own backport, or better to test other people's backports/updates? 19:53:18 <ennael> #info QA would like the person requesting the backport to help with testing too 19:53:26 <MrsB> tnx 19:53:32 <Umeaboy> AL13N: I'd say the second choice. 19:53:45 <MrsB> We're envisioning backport requests will come from users 19:53:51 <ennael> boklm: so as we said this afternoon backports can be managed within 1 week ? 19:53:57 <Stormi> AL13N: one might suppose the packager has tested locally at least 19:54:00 <boklm> I think yes 19:54:20 <ennael> #action sysadmin team will activate backport in coming week 19:54:26 <Stormi> hooray 19:54:31 <Umeaboy> Yaaaay! 19:54:39 <andre999> preliminary testing by the packager locally + testing by others to find what the packager might have missed 19:54:39 <Solbu> Question: Will enabeling backports mean that mga1 and 2 can start having packports or is this for mga3 an onwards? 19:54:52 <anaselli> no problem for earlier tests as bp packager 19:54:53 <ennael> all supported versions 19:55:00 <Solbu> :-)= 19:55:07 <andre999> :) 19:55:19 <ennael> we will communicate more when it's all ready 19:55:28 <Umeaboy> Right. 19:55:31 <ennael> policy, testers needed, quality... 19:55:58 <leuhmanu> maybe we can add a new component in the bugzilla ? 19:55:58 <ennael> questions ? 19:56:11 <Umeaboy> No, not really. 19:56:16 <leuhmanu> because it's a little behind with only a keyword 19:56:19 <Umeaboy> leuhmanu: Yes. 19:56:23 <Umeaboy> I'd like that. 19:56:50 <AL13N> leuhmanu: component? 19:57:11 <AL13N> for backport request? 19:58:34 <tmb> one thing... 19:58:35 <ennael> tmb: yep ? 19:58:35 <boklm> leuhmanu: a backports component ? 19:58:35 <Solbu> About testers. Maybe there should be a page on the wiki that talks a little about what it means to be a tester. Like what does he do, how does he test. 19:58:35 <leuhmanu> boklm: yes like for rpm request 19:58:35 <ennael> Solbu: it's all on QA pages 19:58:35 * Umeaboy agrees. 19:58:35 <Solbu> Right. :-)= 19:58:35 <tmb> we should state in policy how long a package can stay in updates_testing before getting wiped again 19:58:35 <rqcursq> any help for QA needed ? 19:58:35 <rqcursq> :) 19:58:35 <tmb> and backports_testing 19:58:35 <ennael> meaning removing it if no tests coming. 19:58:35 <MrsB> always rqcursq 19:58:35 <ennael> ? 19:58:36 <Umeaboy> Will translations ever be put in backports? 19:58:50 <MrsB> rqcursq: https://wiki.mageia.org/en/QA_Team_portal 19:58:51 <erzulie> [ QA Team portal - Mageia wiki ] 19:58:52 <andre999> Umeaboy: why not if a separate package ? 19:58:53 <tmb> yep, and so no-one start using the _testing medias as "lets upload it there and forget about it..." 19:59:10 <leuhmanu> tmb: indeed... 19:59:11 <andre999> tmb: good point 19:59:28 <ennael> volunteer to add this on wiki ? 19:59:34 <leuhmanu> we have ff and thunderdird without bug yet.. 19:59:48 <andre999> ok :) 19:59:55 <leuhmanu> AL13N: yes 20:00:01 <AL13N> sorry, had lag 20:00:19 <Umeaboy> Perhaps an automated function that pulls some package from Backport to Core if it isn't touched in like 5 days. 20:00:51 <leuhmanu> Umeaboy: please read again what is core and backport 20:01:02 <Umeaboy> OK. 20:01:09 <DavidWHodgins> Umeaboy: That seems a bit short. Some packages take a while to figure out how to test. 20:01:27 <Umeaboy> My view of a Backport is something that's considered stable enough to be in Core-medias. 20:01:59 <Umeaboy> I may be wrong thou. 20:02:07 <Solbu> Umeaboy: You cannot add anything to core once a new release is out. THat is where backports comes in. 20:02:33 <DavidWHodgins> My view is that backports are new versions, or packages not in core. Must be stable enough not to break a newbies system. 20:02:48 <MrsB> or a qa system 20:02:59 <DavidWHodgins> :-) 20:03:02 <Solbu> :-)= 20:03:04 <leuhmanu> Umeaboy: backport vs backport_testing 20:03:25 <Umeaboy> OK. 20:03:33 <linuxguy101> how can pclinux create a new fire fox rpm and mageia cant 20:03:36 <linuxguy101> they are on 13 now 20:03:42 <AL13N> ok, so... is this topic closed? 20:03:43 <AL13N> next? 20:03:49 <Umeaboy> linuxguy101: Because noone requested such atm?! 20:03:53 * coling has to go... (offtopic: tmb when you get a mo' can you reply to the coreutils message on the ML? I need to update it in mga2 to get cyrus-imap to work OOTB) 20:03:54 <Stormi> linuxguy101: we're in a meeting right now 20:04:00 <linuxguy101> oh sorry 20:04:01 <leuhmanu> linuxguy101: read our release notes please 20:04:08 <ennael> #topic non-free firmware management 20:05:27 <ennael> mmm looks like we are missing people 20:05:55 <ennael> we need to solve this topic with one solution or another 20:06:18 <andre999> we need an "essentially free" dvd with non-free firmware where no reliable free firmware is available 20:06:38 <andre999> at least for major hw - in my view 20:07:30 <AL13N> ennael: worst case, we can vote between the existing solutions 20:07:38 <ennael> ok we will take existing ML thread and propose solutions then choose 20:07:44 <AL13N> ok 20:07:54 <ennael> but still main guys discussing it are not there 20:07:56 <Solbu> andre999: "where no reliable free firmware is available" ? 20:08:11 <Solbu> you mean unreliable? 20:08:14 <ennael> #topic mentoring review 20:08:15 <andre999> if we must make totally free dvds, couldn't we develop the dvds with non-free firmware,then just remove the non-free for the totally free version ? 20:08:17 <Umeaboy> And we need more testers for Audio & Video-drivers & firmware as well. 20:08:19 <AL13N> ennael: i guess we'll have to defer it to next time? or decide in thread? or something? 20:08:19 <ennael> andre999: your turn 20:09:10 <doktor5000_> ennael: also here :) 20:09:26 <ennael> andre999: ping ? 20:09:27 <andre999> ok, i've started working on inviting new packagers again 20:09:54 <Umeaboy> What about a HCL/wiki-page for firmware management? 20:09:58 <andre999> since pre-release potential mentors were occupied 20:10:00 <ennael> Umeaboy: please 20:10:10 <Umeaboy> Perhaps the Errata will do. 20:10:35 <ennael> andre999: can you give the wiki link here for mentoring? 20:10:36 <andre999> we now need more apprentices 20:10:58 <andre999> ok a moment 20:11:22 <AL13N> is there any apprentice waiting atm? or are all apprentices taken? 20:11:31 <rindolf> andre999: do all apprentices have mentors? Or are there candidates that aren't apprentices yet? 20:11:45 <doktor5000_> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Becoming_a_Mageia_Packager#Packager_apprentice_candidates 20:11:45 <erzulie> [ Becoming a Mageia Packager - Mageia wiki ] 20:11:45 <andre999> essentially yes 20:11:53 <rqcursq> any approval for becoming mageia packager 20:12:04 <rqcursq> ? 20:12:16 <andre999> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Becoming_a_Mageia_Packager 20:12:17 <erzulie> [ Becoming a Mageia Packager - Mageia wiki ] 20:12:22 <rqcursq> I saw my name in https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Archive:Initially_registered_Packagers 20:12:23 <erzulie> [ Archive:Initially registered Packagers - Mageia wiki ] 20:12:34 <andre999> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Becoming_a_Mageia_Mentor 20:12:35 <erzulie> [ Becoming a Mageia Mentor - Mageia wiki ] 20:13:11 <ennael> #info apprentices have now nearly all a mentor, we are looking for new apprentices 20:13:50 <andre999> there is no potential apprentice that responds to emails 20:14:36 <ennael> ok we can call for it 20:14:36 <rqcursq> i can start from 8th june to packaging? 20:14:36 <ennael> blog, ML... 20:14:36 <andre999> and I'm sure that we have at least a few willing mentors available 20:15:13 <AL13N> andre999: what about existing padawans? are they progressing towards full packagers? 20:15:22 <ennael> #action call for apprentices to be done in coming days 20:15:48 <MrsB> rqcursq: I think you have to put your name on a list on the wiki somewhere 20:16:03 <andre999> AL13N: I'm not sure, slowly they seem to be graduating 20:16:07 <MrsB> andre999: a volunteer ^^ 20:16:12 <andre999> like solbe 20:16:24 <AL13N> andre999: perhaps the mentors could reactivate their padawans of sorts? 20:16:48 <rqcursq> I have my name in here https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Archive:Initially_registered_Packagers but i don't have an account for pushing to repo 20:16:48 <erzulie> [ Archive:Initially registered Packagers - Mageia wiki ] 20:17:04 <andre999> actually some new packagers have yet to (officially) maintain a package 20:17:11 <AL13N> rqcursq: you can read and follow https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Becoming_a_Mageia_Packager 20:17:12 <erzulie> [ Becoming a Mageia Packager - Mageia wiki ] 20:18:05 <ennael> ok next topic? 20:18:33 <AL13N> ok 20:18:40 <andre999> rqcursq: under what id ? 20:18:46 <rqcursq> regularlambda 20:18:52 <MrsB> bug 2317? 20:19:09 <ennael> #topic bug #2317 20:19:14 <ennael> as a reminder 20:19:15 <ennael> https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2317 20:19:17 <erzulie> [ Bug 2317 - --update option should behave like --search-media <list of the update media> ] 20:19:18 <andre999> aha - I sent you an email a while back ... 20:19:39 <MrsB> please please please please please can we fix it :) 20:19:49 <Stormi> same as MrsB :) 20:20:23 <AL13N> https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Feature:UpdatesCanUseDependenciesFromOtherRepos 20:20:24 <erzulie> [ Feature:UpdatesCanUseDependenciesFromOtherRepos - Mageia wiki ] 20:20:49 <Stormi> the real problem is not urpmi --update but rather MageiaUpdate 20:21:20 <AL13N> Stormi: that may be true, but fixing this for cli is nice too 20:21:22 <Stormi> (AFAIK it does not issue a urpmi --update but directly uses perl bindings) 20:21:30 <AL13N> oh 20:21:44 <MrsB> It affects the installer also in the upgrade process 20:22:01 <AL13N> perhaps the details could be added to that feature page 20:22:14 <AL13N> of both MageiaUpdate and Installer 20:22:18 <MrsB> We're not requesting it fixed in mga3 20:22:24 <AL13N> of course not 20:22:39 <AL13N> but if it's not an a wiki page, it 'll never be done 20:22:47 <ennael> again people working on this are not around 20:22:49 <tmb> MrsB: well, technically you are :) 20:23:05 <AL13N> does Installer also use the perl bindings? or does it use urpmi directly? 20:23:10 <tmb> but you dont want to wait for mga3 to get released :) 20:23:12 <AL13N> Stormi: tmb: ^^ ? 20:23:12 <ennael> :) 20:23:36 <Stormi> AL13N: I don't know 20:23:38 <MrsB> exactly tmb 20:23:42 <proyvind> installer doesn't use perl bindings 20:23:50 <MrsB> ideally we'd like it fixed yesterday 20:24:07 <proyvind> and IIRC the updater (if it's based on mandriva update), is very much using urpmi code 20:24:20 <DavidWHodgins> Bug 5687 is closely related, as the installer really needs to do the same as a urpmi --auto-select. 20:24:22 <proyvind> with the ugliest code quality of all the tools using it 20:24:37 <ennael> ok we will mail -dev ML and ask for comments on this 20:24:47 <boklm> it seems that tv doesn't want to change this, as he think it will make MageiaUpdate too slow, so maybe someone should provide a patch to change it, and make some speed comparisons with and without patch 20:24:57 <tmb> mgaonline is the package that needs to be fixed andd backported to mga2 and mga1 20:25:04 <MrsB> It has been 'ignored' for so long because QA have been able to work around the bug 20:25:52 <MrsB> It's seen as low priority for that reason I think 20:26:00 <AL13N> but, chances are that if it's fixed in perl-URPM, that both urpmi and MageiaUpdate will be fixed 20:26:03 <DavidWHodgins> There are likely many cases we miss though, as upgrades make it much more complicated. 20:26:17 <tmb> yep, and the "speed factor" goes missing as time goes by as we end up linking half of /release into /updates 20:26:47 <Stormi> also, speed would not be impacted for update detection, only for installation 20:27:06 <Stormi> (at least the applet should not use much more cpu) 20:27:41 <anaselli> Stormi: using a local mirror should help, but during installation is the cpu that does the difference 20:27:51 <tmb> not to mention the "extra time" it takes for mgaonline to analyze deps can be ignored as it runs in the backgrounf 20:28:02 <tmb> background* 20:28:13 <proyvind> hmm 20:28:23 <proyvind> urpmi is spending veryvery little time on analyzing dependencies actually.. 20:28:40 <proyvind> most of the time spent when using urpmi is on loading the metadata actually 20:29:00 <anaselli> tmb: it is if you don't need to install any packages in the mean while :) 20:29:07 <AL13N> so, if the linking is removed, there's less metadata? 20:29:36 <boklm> so now we need someone to provide a patch for this 20:29:39 <proyvind> and since the synthesis metadata that urpmi uses is so light, it's the main reason why it's so much faster than the others, ie. suse's zypper is shitloads faster at dependency resolution, but that only makes up for a minor part of the time.. 20:29:40 <tmb> AL13N: well, update media metadata will be smaller, yes 20:29:59 * Stormi thinks proyvind wants to propose a patch 20:30:09 <Stormi> :) 20:30:09 <Solbu> :-)= 20:30:23 <proyvind> synthesis for update medias are so small already so that any reductions in size wouldn't give any noticable differences anyways.. 20:30:37 <tmb> and since /release tree is frozen, the metadata only needs to be downloaded once 20:30:48 <proyvind> tmb: totally 20:31:11 <AL13N> i can try to take a look, but i'm not familiar enough with perl-URPM, i'd rather at least someone experienced helps or reviews at the very least 20:31:21 <proyvind> Stormi: no patches, not today, I have way less time to spend on these things than I'd like to already.. :/ 20:31:27 <MrsB> \o/ 20:31:35 <proyvind> but feel free to CC me on the bugzilla entry 20:31:45 <proyvind> and I might come back look at it and share some thoughts 20:31:45 <AL13N> in short, i can't do it on my own and i'd rather not be responsible for it 20:32:06 <tmb> and we need to remove the "add update medias only" option from media manager 20:32:19 <boklm> yes 20:32:23 <Solbu> Why? 20:32:25 <AL13N> yes 20:32:33 <leuhmanu> because it's confuse 20:32:39 <anaselli> so what all or nothing? 20:32:51 <boklm> Solbu: because having only update media will not be supported in that case 20:33:18 <Solbu> boklm: That i understood. but why? 20:33:43 <AL13N> Solbu: because of this bug, if it's fixed, it's no longer workarounded 20:33:44 <boklm> because some update packages can require packages in release 20:33:46 <DavidWHodgins> Because dependencies may have to come from release 20:33:53 <proyvind> I don't think most knows much about any difference about it, even less people cares about it.. 20:34:12 <AL13N> well, if anyone experienced step forward to help me with it 20:34:34 <AL13N> or someone does it on their own, because i might be dragging him/her down 20:34:39 <proyvind> AL13N: /msg me an url with a reference or something and I'll take a look later 20:34:45 <proyvind> I'm about to leave the office now 20:35:10 <proyvind> or soon at least.. :o) 20:35:26 <AL13N> ,bug 2317 20:35:28 <[mbot> Bug https://bugs.mageia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2317 critical, High, ---, thierry.vignaud, NEW, --update option should behave like --search-media <list of the update media>, rpmdrake-5.26.10-1.mga1.src.rpm 20:35:30 <erzulie> [ Bug 2317 - --update option should behave like --search-media <list of the update media> ] 20:35:37 * MrsB shudders 20:35:45 <AL13N> MrsB: sorry 20:35:46 <boklm> so we can send an email on -dev mailing list, to remind people about this bug, and ask if anyone wants to provide a patch 20:35:51 <AL13N> ok 20:36:02 <proyvind> AL13N: /msg, I'm tired and have no intention of reading it now and I rarely read backloags.. ;) 20:36:10 <ennael> boklm: ok 20:36:18 <anaselli> proyvind: at office... soon is an odd word at this time in our local time :p 20:36:34 <ennael> #action ennael will sen a mail about this bug to ask for participation (patch...) 20:36:36 <MrsB> can it be phrased with some urgency, this is really a pain for qa 20:36:49 <ennael> doing it now 20:36:59 <ennael> ok anything else for tonight ? 20:37:02 <MrsB> I mean the words not the email :D 20:37:04 <proyvind> anaselli: aren't we in pretty much almost same or at least close timezone? 20:37:06 <AL13N> MrsB: just don't validate updates until this is fixed :-) 20:37:19 <ennael> proyvind: please we are in meeting 20:37:20 <anaselli> proyvind: we should 20:37:25 <tmb> one somewhat related thing... 20:37:50 <ennael> MrsB: do not hesitate to post on -dev to enforce this topic 20:37:56 <ennael> for QA team 20:38:03 <MrsB> I'll do that, thanks 20:38:07 <ennael> ok 20:38:11 <ennael> other topic pending? 20:38:20 <tmb> yep, for mga1 we keep every version of every package in updates tree for easy regression testing 20:38:30 <anaselli> so AL13N you must be in a hurry writing that patch :D 20:38:35 <ennael> oh I've got one 20:38:52 <ennael> #topic maintainance management 20:39:00 <ennael> it's part of post-mortem in fact 20:39:20 <boklm> tmb: and all versions are shown in rpmdrake ? 20:39:22 <ennael> we need clear position on what to do when packages are just let without maintaince 20:39:27 <ennael> maintainance 20:39:45 <ennael> it's the case for example for ruby since Mageia 1 20:39:45 <anaselli> you mean assigned to anybody? 20:40:03 <AL13N> i say we drop in cauldron unmaintained packages 20:40:04 <leuhmanu> or assigned but not reall active maintainer 20:40:10 <anaselli> or just that no one cares about? 20:40:13 <AL13N> maybe we can do a call for maintainers first thoguh 20:40:27 <leuhmanu> like with cjw, supp 20:40:36 <ennael> how long should we wait for without any answer? 20:40:45 * anaselli doesn't know them :/ 20:41:22 <doktor5000_> depending on the packages i'd say at least one or two months or so ... 20:41:23 <anaselli> ennael: and what to do if not really maintained? we can't remove all the unmaintained packages 20:41:29 <anaselli> some are important 20:41:42 <boklm> anaselli: that's not the same topic 20:41:50 <Solbu> About the unmaintained packages list, are current and obsoleted and to-be-droped packages on the same list? 20:41:54 <andre999> tmb: rather make ADD updates available only if release active. we should do the same for updates-testing, backports* also 20:42:08 <doktor5000_> anaselli: if they were so important, someone should/would care 20:42:18 * anaselli maybe has not explained his point well :/ 20:42:37 <leuhmanu> all ruby-*** is a good example 20:42:39 <anaselli> that can happen though 20:42:41 * AL13N agrees with doktor5000_ 20:42:48 <anaselli> ruby is good example 20:42:59 <ennael> doktor5000_: well you can care but there is still a maintainer in database 20:43:05 <ennael> and this maintainer is missing in action 20:43:10 <rindolf> I'm willing to volunteer to maintain the ruby packages. 20:43:18 <ennael> so we need soemthing official to say 20:43:21 <AL13N> oh wow 20:43:22 <boklm> first we should detect inactive packagers 20:43:30 <ennael> X has not answered for x days 20:43:35 <AL13N> we need to take into account vacations 20:43:40 <AL13N> some people are 2months on vacation 20:43:48 <MrsB> well done rindolf :) 20:43:50 <boklm> AL13N: they should warn in that case 20:43:51 <anaselli> so we need to look for other maintainer 20:44:05 <ennael> if people warn about vacations there is no pb 20:44:06 <leuhmanu> and some since 10 months 20:44:12 <ennael> wait please 20:44:25 <ennael> everybody speaking at same time is hard to follow 20:44:28 <AL13N> so, what timeframe are we speaking of: 2 weeks? 20:44:34 <ennael> wait 20:44:40 <AL13N> k sorry 20:44:46 <ennael> before that peple leaving for some time should mail about it 20:44:47 <ennael> ok? 20:44:53 <AL13N> ok 20:44:55 <Solbu> boklm: Why should they? in some occupations about 2 months vacations is the norm. 20:44:56 <tmb> yep 20:44:59 <ennael> so that people can help in between 20:45:08 <AL13N> agreed 20:45:24 <ennael> then if no such thing happened 20:45:28 <boklm> they should add their name on https://wiki.mageia.org/en/Absent and send an email 20:45:30 <erzulie> [ Absent - Mageia wiki ] 20:45:31 <ennael> how long should we consider ? 20:45:41 <leuhmanu> Solbu: the bugsquad need to know that in release time.. 20:45:55 <AL13N> 2 weeks is good i think 20:45:58 <Umeaboy> What about if a user package a new version of something & has tested it to be OK, how can it become an official release in the future? 20:46:07 <boklm> 2 weeks is short 20:46:08 <ennael> please 20:46:08 <Umeaboy> Can we upload it to cauldron for testing? 20:46:12 <ennael> Umeaboy: please ! 20:46:15 <leuhmanu> Umeaboy: of topic 20:46:26 <Umeaboy> OK. 20:46:41 <ennael> so how long should we consider a package is without maintainer? 20:46:43 * boklm would say 1 month 20:46:43 <Umeaboy> I thought the topic was packaging. 20:46:56 <Solbu> Umeaboy: Read the topic. ;-)= 20:47:03 <ennael> 1 month is ok? 20:47:18 <anaselli> without packaging or without answering any mails? 20:47:19 <AL13N> so, this 1 month to reply on bug report??? 20:47:20 <ennael> 1 month without any answer 20:47:21 <AL13N> it's long 20:47:26 <Umeaboy> What kind of maintanance management? 20:47:29 <doktor5000_> ennael: as already said, maybe more like 1-2 months 20:47:38 <ennael> let start with 1 month 20:47:38 <anaselli> one month could be ok 20:47:39 <AL13N> especially during alpha and such 20:47:43 <ennael> we can change it later 20:47:57 <AL13N> ok fine 20:48:00 <ennael> it does not prevent people to provide updates in between if needed 20:48:01 <doktor5000_> 1 month starting by a mail directed at maintainer, some don't read bugzilla mails 20:48:27 <ennael> then if no answer for 1 month a mail is sent 20:48:36 <anaselli> neither if they are the assignees? 20:48:36 <ennael> and package proposed on -dev 20:48:38 <AL13N> doktor5000_: bugzilla mails are assigned to maintainer, so he get's an email 20:48:43 <ennael> is that ok. 20:48:44 <ennael> ? 20:48:48 <AL13N> ok 20:48:49 <boklm> ok 20:48:52 <anaselli> fine 20:49:08 <ennael> now how can we detect this automatically 20:49:09 <ennael> ? 20:49:17 <leuhmanu> AL13N: read vs get 20:49:18 <AL13N> bugsquad? 20:49:20 <ennael> Bugzilla ? pending updates ? 20:49:41 <AL13N> is there some saved search that can do this? 20:49:47 <leuhmanu> what should we do after 1 month ? 20:49:54 <ennael> aaaaaaah 20:50:04 <ennael> 22:48 < ennael> then if no answer for 1 month a mail is sent 20:50:07 <ennael> 22:48 < ennael> and package proposed on -dev 20:50:18 <doktor5000_> ennael: pending updates would be ok, but imho we'd need more people who create security bugs like Luigi12 and sysadmins do for that ... 20:50:19 <leuhmanu> ah 20:50:21 <AL13N> leuhmanu: can we detect this in bugzilla? 20:50:39 <ennael> bugzilla statistics fans, can we have such thing? 20:50:40 <boklm> we can probably have automatically a list of people who didn't commit for more than one month, and use this list to search for inactive maintainers 20:51:05 <ennael> boklm: well packages may not need commits for 1 month 20:51:12 <leuhmanu> what to do with packager that commit without reading bugs ? 20:51:12 <ennael> does not mean they are unmaintained 20:51:22 <AL13N> leuhmanu: is a bad packager 20:51:23 <ennael> leuhmanu: they should not be packagers 20:51:24 <boklm> ennael: yes, but this list is manually checked 20:51:31 <ennael> so several lists 20:51:36 <anaselli> ennael: i missed a point after a month, the maintainer is removed as maintainer with a mail and the package is proposed to mailing list? 20:51:36 <ennael> commits, bugs 20:51:47 <boklm> this list is only used to find potential inactive maintainers 20:51:51 <ennael> anaselli: as proposed twice already :) 20:52:04 <ennael> so using bugzilla and commits 20:52:12 <AL13N> perhaps a bugzilla list and a commit list can be used to crossmatch 20:52:13 <anaselli> but i thought to wait his answer first :) 20:52:16 * leuhmanu kill all packagers 20:52:48 <ennael> ok 20:52:49 <Solbu> Removing someone as maintainer as the first thing, seems rather harsh? 20:52:50 <AL13N> leuhmanu: can you find us a way to search inactive assigned people in bugzilla? 20:52:54 <ennael> so to summarize 20:53:08 <leuhmanu> AL13N: of course, marja do already that in some point 20:53:16 <ennael> #info a packager has to mail -dev and add vacations in wiki if leaving for a long time 20:53:46 <ennael> #info if nothing is done within 1 month, a mail is sent to him and packages proposed for maintainance on -dev 20:54:08 <ennael> #info commits activity and bugzilla will be used to detect inactive packagers 20:54:15 <ennael> is that it? 20:54:20 <leuhmanu> ok 20:54:20 <AL13N> maybe confirm with absent wiki page 20:54:21 <boklm> I don't know if we can do it with bugzilla 20:54:33 <anaselli> yes consider case by case anyway... 20:54:38 <ennael> no answer on bugs 20:54:46 <anaselli> maybe a bug can't be fixed 20:54:46 <rqcursq> :file pomed 20:54:51 <ennael> triage team, a task for you :) 20:54:53 <boklm> ok 20:55:00 <ennael> anaselli: then wont'fix 20:55:21 <ennael> we need to add this on policy 20:55:27 <ennael> just looking for the proper one 20:55:27 <Solbu> So is the proposal to assume that if rindolf for some reason doesn't do anything for a month, that we assume he is inactive and propose his packages on the list, and remove him as packager? 20:55:42 <rqcursq> :findfile pomed 20:55:43 <Sophie> rqcursq: Sorry, no file pomed found in (Mageia, cauldron, i586) 20:55:45 <ennael> Solbu: he will be mailed to ask about it 20:55:47 <anaselli> ok let's see i'm not sure it's the right solution, but i can see only my bugs :) 20:56:05 <rqcursq> :q pomed 20:56:09 <Sophie> rqcursq: Nothing matches `pomed' in (Mageia, cauldron, i586) 20:56:14 <rqcursq> :( 20:56:19 <ennael> rqcursq: please meeting in progress 20:56:23 <rindolf> rqcursq: there's a meeting in progress. 20:56:25 <AL13N> rqcursq: you can ask Sophie in private 20:56:27 <anaselli> certainly i'm one who answers for the most :p 20:56:29 <Umeaboy> rqcursq: Take it in PM with Sophie. 20:56:34 <rqcursq> sorry 20:56:41 <Solbu> ennael: Then the packager should be given a time to respone before mailing the -dev asking for someone to take his packages. Like a week. 20:57:10 <anaselli> Solbu: ah ah. so you got my point :D 20:57:21 <Solbu> The mail should also say this in plain text. 20:57:44 <ennael> shall we create a policy for packagers 20:57:46 <AL13N> 1 day should suffice 20:57:53 <ennael> I cannot see anything about thhis 20:58:01 <Solbu> AL13N: that is to short. 20:58:01 <sander85> send mail and wait how long before removing maintainership? 20:58:04 <AL13N> ok 20:58:22 <leuhmanu> anyway, personly I will only propose people case par case 20:58:30 <ennael> #action packager policy will be added 20:58:30 <Solbu> AL13N: what if the mail is sendt out on friday evening, and the pakcager is not reading mail untill he's back from the weekend? 20:58:43 <ennael> Solbu: no we wait for 1h 20:58:48 <anaselli> or three weeks. a mail, one week later a post to -dev 20:58:48 <boklm> Solbu: a 1 month weekend ? 20:58:49 <Solbu> Hehe 20:58:50 <ennael> if no answer he will be burnt 20:59:00 <Solbu> boklm: That is not my issue. 20:59:24 * doktor5000_ is afraid he willl lose his maintainership then - and his life also 20:59:37 <anaselli> ennael: witch :D 20:59:51 <Solbu> Hehe,. 20:59:58 <ennael> doktor5000_: well you can give these reasons then we do not remove maintainance 21:00:04 <AL13N> anaselli: hmm, kind of rude... 21:00:07 <boklm> doktor5000_: if you plan to be away for more than one month, you can add yourself to Absent wiki page 21:00:11 <ennael> but at lease we know you are alive :) 21:00:19 <Solbu> Either tehre is a miscommunication, or someone is not understanding what is beeing proposed. 21:00:25 <ennael> which is not the case of all current packagers 21:01:00 <ennael> anaselli: I'm proud of it :) 21:01:30 <ennael> ok we work on a draft and post it on -dev 21:01:33 <tmb> so something like 1 month inactive -> mail maintainer -> wait a week -> if no answer -> send mail to -dev asking for other maintainer, or atleast someone to fix bug / update package(s) in question 21:01:33 <anaselli> ennael: i know you since ages :D 21:01:34 <leuhmanu> :nb_rpm supp 21:01:35 <Sophie> leuhmanu: supp (Mageia) maintains 30 rpms 21:01:42 <leuhmanu> :nb_rpm cjw 21:01:42 <Sophie> leuhmanu: cjw (Mageia) maintains 11 rpms 21:01:53 <ennael> anything else ? question ? 21:01:53 <AL13N> so, 3weeks + mail +1week + removal? or 4weeks + mail + 1week + removal ??? 21:02:05 <doktor5000_> :nb_rpm shikamaru 21:02:06 <Solbu> tmb: Yes. 21:02:07 <Sophie> doktor5000_: shikamaru (Mageia) maintains 278 rpms 21:02:19 <doktor5000_> rindolf: ^^^^ 21:02:20 <sander85> i would prefer 5 weeks in total 21:02:29 <rindolf> doktor5000_: OK. 21:02:36 <ennael> next time we will write in red 21:02:58 <ennael> we said 1 month, a mail and then depending on the answer removing maintainance 21:02:58 <anaselli> with blood i know 21:03:00 <AL13N> hmm, due to lag, i may have missed part of conv 21:03:08 <anaselli> pacakger's of course ennael 21:03:13 * ennael likes blood after 23h 21:03:13 <AL13N> happend several times during this meeting 21:03:27 <boklm> 23h UTC ? 21:03:34 <AL13N> :-) 21:03:37 <ennael> 21hUTC 21:03:38 <ennael> :p 21:03:52 <ennael> ok I guess it's late and already 2h meeting 21:03:55 <AL13N> k 21:03:57 <agron_> Did you guys talk about mentoring yet? I just finished work. 21:04:06 <ennael> so thanks for attending 21:04:09 <AL13N> agron_: about to end meeting 21:04:17 <Solbu> I have one aditional point, regarding the meetings them selves. 21:04:29 <AL13N> agron_: you can read the archives after meeting ends 21:04:31 <ennael> and still you have -dev ML to discuss about all this if things are unclear, or irc 21:04:44 <ennael> see you next week 21:04:50 <ennael> #endmeeting